The Daily Record today report: “Record Sport understands Rangers would fight tooth and nail against any move to impose more than the statutory 10-point penalty” in the event “the Ibrox side have to start again under a new name”, presumably if the existing company ceases to exist.
If the Record are, in fact, reporting Rangers’ position accurately, this is the first salvo in their campaign to gain control of the consequences of a corporate failure.
The Record go on to say: “Clubs who can’t exit administration by a CVA must hand over their assets to a new entity and after shares [in the SPL]are transferred to a new company agreement has to be reached with the SPL over a return to the top flight”.
The glaring observations from this aspiration is, of course, that agreement does not have to be reached with the SPL over a return to the top flight, and that clubs who cannot exit administration by a CVA (Creditors Voluntary Agreement) must dispose of their assets to the benefit of the unsecured creditors.
The debate is framed by the newspaper to suggest a range of outcomes of between 10-25 points is possible for Rangers Newco FC to pick-up the SPL shares and league position of the existing Rangers FC, with a 25 point deduction being wholly unpalatable to the new company.
There must be absolutely no presumption that a newly formed company, who happen to own Ibrox, are entitled to parachute into the SPL ahead of the current Scottish Football League members, or ahead of an existing SPL team in a relegation spot. In the event of a club failure the league can and, if necessary, must complete the season with 11 teams only.
Scottish football cannot establish a system whereby an oligopoly can vote on a system which stiffs creditors and prejudices competitors outside of the oligopoly. Football across the world is trying to clean up its reputation, we cannot allow Scotland to become a laughing stock. Let your club know your feelings on how they should vote when the time comes. It’s time for fans of Celtic, Aberdeen, Dundee United, St Mirren, Hibernian, Motherwell, Dunfermline and others to make their voices heard.
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The hound would be overwhelmingly Hoopy with a 10-3 demolition of Hibs tomorrow, which should be eminently achievable… as long as our Bhoys turn up before half time for a change!
Celtic 10 (Hooper 3, Stokes3, Forrest 2, Ledley, Kayal)
Hibs 3 (Majstorovic 3 OGs)
The season proper starts here. Go get ‘em Bhoys.
The Honest Mistake (Sickened)
By the same token, Rangers by most readings of UEFA’s rules, will be excluded from competing in Europe for 3 years anyway. The Co-efficient will do what it will do whether Rangers are in the SPL or the SFL during the 3 years in question.
Personally, while the law will take its course on Rangers’ financial issues, the fundamental question for me is: What is the purpose of Professional Football in Scotland?
If its fundamental purpose is to generate as much money as possible for the participating businesses, then Newco Rangers will be included in the SPL from the off.
If its fundamental purpose is to create a sporting contest featuring the best players available to the top clubs, then there are arguments for and against Newco Rangers’ immediate inclusion. Some element of penance for past misdeeds, and a commitment to ‘fair play’ in governance and football matters might be enough to get the support they need.
If the fundamental purpose is to provide a showcase for all that is good about Scottish Football,reflecting our society’s values, and protecting, enhancing and growing the intrinsic value of the game to the nation, then Rangers should be excluded on the basis that they have demonstrated beyond all doubt that they are bad for the game.
My instinct is that the SPL clubs, in collusion with the SFA Board, will come up with a way to allow Newco Rangers to take the place of Oldco Rangers without interuption. As soon as they do this, they will have destroyed the legacy entrusted to them, and I’ll chuck it. I love football for the pure sport of it. I love Celtic for the values they display in competing. If the SPL doesn’t provide the sport, and rides roughshod over the values I hold, I’ll go elsewhere.
Why are we being asked to track the ole weather in London, and not East Kilbride?
Roast beef
Top 5
BontyBhoy – I think you have misread my post. I fully expect them to be re-admitted to the SPL, for the reasons you have stated. In fact I would not be surprised if it is wangled that Rangers United regain the points of Huns FC minus the 10 for administration. The rules are suitably opaque to allow any motion to be passed with a vote.
The crux of my post is IT SHOULD NOT BE COUNTENANCED.
Afternoon Paul,
The Daily Record (Ranger) not telling the truth (or making it up as they go along)? Never!
Looking forward to tomorrow’s game. Wanyama for Kayal, with Ki left and Ledley through the middle, and it will be a skoosh.
On another note, i got paid today, can the same be said in Govan?
Top 10, that almost never happens! C’mon the Celts!
The Battered Bunnet 28 October, 2011 at 12:49:
I agree with you and that’s my feelings on the matter too.
If it means that we have to form a new Celtic and start again in another league then so be it. I would hope that Celtic would resign from the league that would be a sham league after such a decision and go elsewhere.
I understand that SPL voting regulations require at least 11 of the 12 participants to be in favour in order to carry a motion. Were that motion intended to retain Rangers’ place in the SPL (albeit merely with a slightly different monicker), then surely at least Celtic and the team likely to be relegated would vote against?
Re-posting as this was attached to end of last blog:
Guys , did anyone see this story regarding a young fan travelling to Rennes last week.
http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/edinburgh/around-the-capital/celtic_fan_seriously_hurt_after_falling_from_ferry_s_top_deck_1_1933678
A guy in my work goes on the same bus (Livingston No.1) as him and it turns out he had no insurance at all . Turns out he was helicoptered to hospital from the ferry after falling 20 feet. Has been operated on for a rib puncturing his heart , has had reconstructive surgery on his face , yet may still get the go-ahead to come home in a few days . However getting him home may well be a problem as you would expect having that much surgery will require medical assistance yet the guy has no insurance.
The Livingstone No. 1 are having a fund raiser tonight to try to help out.
Do you reckon there’s anyway the CQN community could help out . Any posters out there go on the Livi No.1 ?
Paul67 – The hard sell has begun. This is where Jack Irvine comes to the fore. How did we know it would be the Record that fired the opening salvo….
The Battered Bunnet says:
28 October, 2011 at 12:49
I’m feeling the same. Every transfer window I say the same thing as people argue about targets real and rumoured – I don’t care who we sign, I jsut want to come along to CP and see a Celtic team play.
However, if there’s collusion by us to keep them in the SPL then it won’t be the Celtic I love to support. It’ll be some facsimile of the team I grew up loving.
I can hold my hand up and say with all honesty I’d rather see a further downgraded Celtic competing with the likes of Hearts and Aberdeen, and yes potentially losing to them in the league than see us bend over to keep the status quo. Seeing us play Rangers is only 10% of the reason I have a season ticket.
Further from my post earlier….
We surely have enough legal professionals, business professionals, advertising professionals here to come up with a “What If?” document showing the likely outcomes of Rangers dropping out of the SPL?
weeminger – (From Previous) It is the best time for league reconstruction. If the current model is so bad that 1 time going belly up kills all professional clubs it needs ripped up anyway.
Paul67
And so the spin begins.
The media campaign begins. The huns can’t be allowed to die, and it’s all for the good of Scottish football of course.
Is there not a single SPL club that will stand up for the principle of fair play and banish the new huns to the bottom of the structure?
If the Celtic board lend a helping hand in any way to allowing pre-pack (IKEA FC) Huns Fc to stay in the SPL, I have a feeling that some disgruntled Celtic fans will seek to set up a new team just like AFC United after the Glazer takeover of Manure.
Have to say, I’d back them!!
Hx2
Podi…um forget about it!
Does anyone honestly think that Peter Lawell would vote to stop Rangers newco taking the place of Rangers oldco? I have no confidence in the man and fear that he would vote in favour, as it would be the best move financially. When has he ever done what is best for Celtic and the fans? We may need two of the smaller clubs to vote against it to prevent Rangers newco taking the place of Rangers oldco.
angelfc67, they are telling the truth, if not all of the story.
RogueLeader, looks like the Record were taken inside the tent after their earlier mishap.
EXILED TIM, aye.
Question
If the plug stays firmly in today, he CW must be attempting to stumble on until the jan window, he must be getting a cash injection from somewhere, I wonder who is funding it, cos it sure isn’t the MBB.
There can be a convincing argument made that relegating Rangers Mk II to the bottom tier will help strengthen Scottish football from the ground up. As they start on the bottom rung and progress through the leagues, as they surely would, every team would benefit from increased attendances and revenues will increasing interest in the lower leagues.
However knowing the myopic financial self-interest which blights SPL clubs, including our own, I fully expect Rangers Mk II to be given carte blanche to do as they please.
The precedence set with Airdrie United, is entry into the 3rd division.
Clydebank had been in the 2nd division when it folded and Airdrie in the 1st.
BontyBhoy:
I’ll say this to you, and leave it at that.
I don’t care what your motivations are, who pays you or does not, whether you are a Celtic fan who sounds like a Hun or a Hun trying to sound like a Celtic fan … whatever, your argument boils down to this.
For commercial reasons we should allow a sectarian, bigoted organisation to survive an extinction level event brought about by its own fraudulent, illegal behaviour. And you think our club would not be tainted by that decision forevermore? You think the stink of that decision would not permeate every boardroom in the land, send sponsors running for the hills, make banks impossible to deal with, hand the entire power in the game to one club – and it won’t be us, I assure you – on a formal basis instead of in the unspoken silent way we’ve known about for years, publicly and in full glare of the world …
You think Scottish Football could survive an event like that? Don’t kid yourself. The SFA is facing two unpalatable choices here. They can act fairly and in accordance with their own rules and assure Rangers will rise through the ranks and, in doing so, benefit every club in the land, large or small, in every league – full houses all round! SPL clubs might die, that’s their own fault, other clubs would thrive and grow and replace them in time – or they can allow the illegal actions of Rangers to go unpunished, tear up the rule book, hand them a free pass and thus make us ALL party to a fraud.
Paul67 said the MOST pointed thing yesterday in a single line, and I am with him all the way on it.
“Whatever part of my club is dependent on Rangers I am willing to lose.”
Scottish Football is certainly far too dependant on them. But I have long argued that what killed the game here was NOT the power of Rangers but the rise of Celtic again to become a major force. Back in the 90′s we had a monopoloy league, but it was workable in many ways and clubs like Aberdeen, Motherwell and Hibs were bigger sides than now. The creation of the duopoly is what destroyed the game and making the smashing of the pardigm will revive it again.
I know this – the present setup is not working. Instead of fighting to maintain it, the SFA should see this as an opportunity to start again. The Kilmarnock’s of this world are of no interest to me. They have been self-serving for too long, looking out for their own interests to the detriment of the whole game.
Rangers being forced to play by the rules would accomplish two key things. It would demonstrate to the world that Scottish Football is about more than just two clubs – that would be to the benefit of all.
And secondly, and most importantly, it would drastically and unquestionably realign the entire balance of our national sport.
I for one believe it would do so for the better.
—
The above is a post from the last thread. As to this one …
Paul67
Well done sir on the second marvellous article in two days. I read Keevins article in the same way you did, presenting it as fait accompli and trying to maintain Rangers are quaking at the possibility of a 25 point deduction which would still leave them comfortably in second spot in the league, debt free.
If that was on the table tomorrow Rangers would snatch it up in two seconds flat. We all KNOW IT.
This is the kind of article I was expecting, and when news broke last night of what the headline would be I did not have to read the story to know what the spin was. What is being presented as a “worst case scenario” is simply a fraud of gigantic proportions. There are outcomes aside from a pre-pack which range from inconsequential to armaggedon … that this one is being presented as being “within the rules” is a piece of disinformation so blatant it takes my breath away.
Keevins is either lying through his teeth or he is being fed lies and regurgitating them wholescale.
Either way, this is the beginning. Anyone now in any doubt as to this being the plan? We’re seeing, right in front of us, the unfolding of the strategy. We’re being softened up for the full-scale campaign to let Rangers dance off scot-free.
This is the time when we have to start fighting. Not after the fact … but NOW. It must NOT be allowed.
Paul 67,
What, in your view is our best vehicle to make our collective views known and thus prevent this scenario coming to pass? Could we lobby Celtic and other clubs, for example, to conduct a ballot of shareholders and season-ticket holders in order to decide how each club should vote? It seems the best way to preserve the integrity of the competition as far as fans and investors are concerned.
TBB and Honest Mistake,
You are articulating the end game I saw.
If the newHuns are allowed to participate in the SPL with minimal disruption it is the end for us, Celtic.
There is no hope for a Celtic in a proven to be institutionalised biased league in favour of the Huns.
As a supporter why would I pay, (via Season ticket) to be part of a sham.
EC67
TBB
Agreed.
From the few conversations I’ve had in the last 24 hours a newco huns taking the place of oldco will set the whole Celtic movement a dilemma. If the Board do not instigate a serious challenge and apply for inclusion in another league a fan based Club will and paradox of paradigms, The Peoples front of Judea conundrum will fall on us, not them.
BarryBhoy says:
28 October, 2011 at 13:02
They’d also be in two cup competitions, so the hun pound would not be entirely lost to Scottish football.
The novelty factor of them climbing up the league would have a marketable value in itself.
Income might fall in the short term.
So what? Just cut your coat to suit your cloth.
The alternative is that the game loses all its integrity.
As mentioned before the fundraiser is being held in the Tower, Craigshill, Livingston. Try to get along if you can , it is a good cause.
I imagine the final outcome will be some mish mash compromise which no one is entirely happy with. Football fans will grumble and threaten to boycott etc but will end up doing what they do and that’s go to see the games anyway.
I hope I am very wrong.
Greenmaestro – if I recall correctly were Airdrie not reinstated at the expense of promoted Morton? My pal is a Morton fan and I’m sure he was a tad miffed when they got passed over for the admin gang.
The huns will not get their way if we do what we do best – organise!
DBBIA
re weather tracking – perhaps your IP is sourced by the ad and yours has been tracked to London. I’ve been asked to track the weather in Newark and some blogs I’ve been on have the application that shows a little globe with pinpoints showing where current site visitors are located.
I think Bontybhoy has underestimated just how strongly people feel about this – just look at the reactions to hte news today that senior managers are getting 50% pay rises while others in the private sector get below inflation wage rises and public sector wages actually fall further. Rangers have benefitted at everyone else’s expense and it shouldn’t continue.
They’ve not paid the taxes they should have and in doing so gained an unfair advantage – what they did was wrong.
He’s not convincing me
to change my mind
James Forrest,
I’m not anything important in the grand scheme of things. So, don’t get too uptight about my opinions or motivations. I think you’ll find my views are common amongst those who already fear for the game in Scotland.
I don’t think it’s right that Rangers should be allowed to pull through this unscathed and don’t support any outcomes like that. I also don’t think we should allow blood lust to get in the way of Celtic’s own future. I don’t see a future that depends upon Rangers, quite the opposite in fact, but I don’t see us reaching any kind of positive future in a league that stops half way through to kick out its second biggest club and current league leaders.
We’re already falling by the way side. It will take years to recover if the league is decimated (or whatever a division of 12 is). Say goodbye to your namesake, and much else besides.
And as a final point, and this for me is where the whole Old Firm thing gets tremendously ugly, just remember that one individual’s job is more important that all the pseudo intellectual posturing over bigotry on CQN. Mostly it’s all for talk and entertainment (of an emotionally bankrupt kind) and when set against the reality of a human, and their family, falling upon even harder times because we wanted to ram home our prejudice or legitimate but totally unrelated gripe about sporting behaviour, it’s a nonsense. You need to think again.
I said, before, that Rangers should be treated very harshly indeed. I meant it. I think the whole process should be tightened up to make every element of what Rangers have done impossible, in a football context and beyond, and I think individuals who have brought this to pass should be held accountable. No-one should be in any doubt about the mess Rangers have created. But, in arriving at this point, and looking to the future we need to be a little more grown up than we are so far.
Truthfully, whilst CQN is full of fascinating opinions and views, there’s really only one person I want to hear from where Celtic are concerned and that is our estimable CEO. If he, representing Celtic, tells me that we can get through this whilst Rangers start again from the Third Division and work out a new TV contract and sponsorship package then I couldn’t care less what happens to Rangers, the instituion (although I remain worried about employees all over Scottish Football). He won’t be saying that though… and it seems our Old Firm obsession will drive some Celtic fans to cut our own throats. You could hardly make that up.
There really is only one that the clubs have to ask:
“If my club was in position it be allowed to stay in the SPL?”
Rocket Man:
Airdrie will be trotted out as the big example in the coming weeks, but they are a smokescreen.
When Airdrie died they were not reborn to play in the same division. Their license to play in the league was put up for tender, and it was taken by Gretna, who started in Division 3.
Airdrie did not survive. An event which should have destroyed one club forever destroyed two. The remenents of Airdrie assimilated the dying body of Clydebank, registration and all.
If NewCo Rangers want to compete in the SPL in a way which suggest fairness, they have an option. They can buy Kilmarnock, shut them down, take THEIR license and carry on as before. NewCo Killie could then acquire the remaining license and start in Divison 3.
The Airdrie example is a smokescreen.
Paul67
“The glaring observations from this aspiration is, ….
that clubs who cannot exit administration by a CVA (Creditors Voluntary Agreement) must dispose of their assets to the benefit of the unsecured creditors.”
How does this fit in with the prepack prediction then?
The administrator acts for all creditors not just secured creditors in a prepack admin too. How will he be able to justify a deal so far off the paper value of the assets when the unsecured creditors are getting next to nothing out of the deal?
Dharma – my IP has’been sourced to London’
Good grief!
I’m goin’ to need more tinfoil…
…anyways, if a similar scenario had arisen in the 90s, and the future of Newceltco depended on the ole Horribles, I do not think for a second that they would have pulled the plug with anything other than pleasure and mucho gusto.