It will surprise no one that Uefa have charged our football club with “the displaying of an offensive banner and setting off of fireworks [sic]by fans”, this action was as inevitable as the dawn. At least some of our number believes setting off flares in a football stadium is a reasonable action and that provoking European football’s governing body is a smart thing to do.
In terms of protest, “**** Uefa” is not quite up there with Martin Luther’s Thesis or what we’ve witnessed in the Arab world this year. It’s simple rebellious behaviour, which some of us are compelled by in our teens and a few take a long time to shake off.
Forget calls to self-police, I’ve never seen it work with a football support. Ever. If you think you are going to convince anyone the folly of profane banners, flares or even IRA chanting at a football game, save your breath. Those who are up for the protest (whatever the subject is) are more likely to find your call for restraint as complicity.
This series of protest and consequence will run for years, will split the support and damage Celtic. Neither the club nor the support has the leadership to do anything about it. Copy and paste the thoughts you write on the subject, you can use them again without having to retype.
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bamboo says:
19 December, 2011 at 13:29
Have no fear. I hear the police will be using state of the art cctv at the Rangers’ end.
It was sourced from a trusted Leeds hotel supplier.
Anyone think Sammy’s decision to pass to Forrest on the right rather then the completely unmarked Ki on his left only intensified the elation felt when the ball eventually hit the net?
Thanks Sammy.
So… swinging with The Krankies…
More lurid details:
The married couple told how they once trashed the tour bus of rock band Status Quo and that on one occasion Ian flattened magician Paul Daniels with a single punch in a bar.
Now that’s rock and roll.
Given that Les Battersby did it better re: Status Quo, and Paul Daniels was hospitalised by Sooty, I wouldn’t boast about it though.
The pair, famous for their catchphrase ‘fan-dabi-dozi’, said they feared their other partners were getting jealous and that kiss and tell stories would wreck their careers.
There are several things wrong with that sentence…
The couple are currently appearing in pantomime at the Clyde Auditorium in Robinson Crusoe And The Caribbean Pirates.
Come back Andy Cameron, all is forgiven…
(thumbsup)
Philvisreturns
At least Timmy Mallett had Michaela Strachan to look at.
Celtic FC Sanitised In Domestos.
Astounded!
Get your Pink & Green scarfs here!
Prawn Sandwhiches only £18.88.
MWD Astounded of Forehead.
.
Bought a Saab off a Olde Guy today..$500 Buck..an Olde Mechanic fae Blackpool..
Great buy the Car is worth 3K..
But what Really made me think was..
He was Smoking a E-Lite..
Just hope the Car is Not a Fake..
Summa
Afternoon – good weekendwith a fully deserved 3 points ysterday. Pity about big Dan – pictures look terrible today.
Anyhoo, the new SPL legislation regarding signing/banners in suport (or even against) proscribed terrrorist organisations is interesting. The IRA in all of its different forms (Original, Provisional, Real, Continuity) and the INLA are on that list. This means the next song to be decried by the establishment will be The Roll of Honour. I would urge the GB or any one else not to sing this at the games.
It is sadly not surprising that the year in which they WILL be deducted points for going into admin, this legislation is brought in. If we continue to sing this at games, we WILL be deducted points. I don’t think it’s right but that’s the way they (the establishment) will play it.
We must be clever – now is not the time to rebel against what I believe to be laws and SPL rules that prevent freedom of speech.
People may say that they’ll be outlawing the tricolour next or non-republican irish songs but let them try it. Give them enough rope to show themselves for what they really to the world. If we follow their rules, do not let them win then we’ll show them up for what they are.
Let’s not fall for their brazenly prejudiced and poorly executed trap.
Hail Hail
Wee Jimmy Krankie…I mean, how could you? Abuse surely!
Snake Plissken – Ah, lovely Michaela.
The thinking man’s Carol Keating. (thumbsup)
tomtheleedstim
Well the police observation post is situated right above the hun section .
They should hear and see everything that is happening directly below them .
Songs and smashing seats.
There can be no justification for setting off flares or smoke bombs in a stadium.
They are an obvious fire hazard.
How can we be sure that Firebrand Ernie is not entirely composed of straw and wood shavings,and therefore eminently combustible ?
Summa of Sammi…. says:
19 December, 2011 at 13:34
Saab filed for bankruptcy today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16242115
Surely mentioning sex and Jimmy Krankie in the same post is a breach of some sort of legislation? If not it bloody well should be
Actually compared to the new Leader of Scottish Labour it could be argued in some circles that Wee Jeanette Krankie is quite the looker.
What on earth were Labour thinking?
My guess is that Ernie from the muppets would indeed be very combustible..
Gordon_J backing Neil Lennon – I agree, the very thought is horrifying.
Like walking in on your parents.
In flagrante delicto.
With a squeezy bottle of Heinz Salad Cream and the Chuckle Brothers.
(thumbsup)
Meanwhile, the SPL has also tightened the rules governing unacceptable conduct, to include: “using words, conduct or displaying any writing or other thing which indicates support for, or affiliation to, or celebration of, or opposition to an organisation proscribed in terms of the Terrorism Act 2000.”
Presumably that means if the huns (or any others) sing No Surrender, they will be done for it?
Not holding my breath.
Mort
Have we had a muppet debate on here yet?…[ dont mention wee declan!}
Snake Plissken – Actually compared to the new Leader of Scottish Labour it could be argued in some circles that Wee Jeanette Krankie is quite the looker.
That’s a woman?
I thought they were bringing out a new Shrek. (thumbsup)
Paul67 et al,
well hey some progressive news re. standing areas.
Your world-weary lead article made me think of that Behan quote about the first item on the agenda at a republican meeting.
Hail, hail
If flares and smoke bombs are an obvious fire hazard, and hundreds are let off every week at grounds across Europe, why have there been no reports of any fires?
Disagree with Paul’s opinion that self policing is futile. Surely when 80,000 mostly males from the West of Scotland travel to Seville for a 3 day booze session with hardly a hint of trouble it is down at least partly to self policing.
Like others have pointed out, the “Ooh ah up the RA” add on seems to have been ditched already. Of course a few on here still think it’s acceptable but the ones who attend the games seem to have stopped it.
Craid Whyte looks like Beaker. No need for a debate.
philvisreturns,
Sick. Just sick
Yes Paul. Martin Luther was wrong
‘Solo Scriptura’ the authority of the Bible alone is not a Bible teaching. Never was and never will be
One former protestant, now Catholic Priest says this is only a protestant tradition.
Professor Scott Hahn, former Presbyterian Minister, now Catholic theologine is also only one of many
My challenge remains on the table, unanswered, – show me the Bible basis of ‘Solo Scriptura’ and I’ll become some kind of anti Catholic.
.
tomtheleedstim..
Tom..My Olde CamperVan (40yr Olde) Died on me last week..The Start of the School Summer holidays..
So the Olde Car l bought is a Wee Runaround till TheVan is Fixed..
Always Liked Saab..But a 2 ltr for $500 with 6 month of Rego ($300) is a Great Buy..so I’m a Happy Summa tonight..:O)
Summa
The Honest Cover-up says:
19 December, 2011 at 13:52
Listen m8 I’m lost with where your coming from with previous post and who is behind this.
The food served at Celtic Park* presents more of a risk to the health and safety of the fans than smoke bombs and flares.
* To the plebs, not the Bankiers. Obviously.
I was at the evening cup replay v them last season at CP and it’s as bad as I’ve heard their fans. I imagine they’ll be just as bad next week.
If our fans can refrain from the Celtic symphony add on we are fine.
Noticed Boyd has left the Turkish mob. My January prediction….jelavic out for cash, Boyd in for free.
Was impressed with our second half performance yesterday, if samaras,hooper and Forrest are on form over the next couple of games it’ll be a merry Christmas!!
And another thing….wanyama is brilliant.
They are not really dramatic “flares” or “bombs ” .
I think “devices” is the correct description.
Something that produces smoke but in its self is not that dangerous.
I was at a league game in the staid conservative country of Austria last year and hundreds were let off in the ground.
phil01 says:
19 December, 2011 at 13:06
****
You might not come out to play often pal but you are worth listening to when you do.
With the pride in being part of the Celtic family comes a responsibility to agree to shared values and conduct. A few have yet to learn this.
Ernie
In the vast majority of cases flares and/or smoke bombs don’t cause injury but they have been known to cause panic in enclosed spaces increasing the chances of crushes. I think it was at Exeter a few years ago that fans tried to gain entry to the ground when a flare was set off, hit someone in the face and caused panic threatening a crush.
Regardless of what any of us think, these are outlawed by UEFA and by most stadia in the UK anyway and we need to abide by the law, simple as that.
Mort
Gordon_J backing Neil Lennon – Sick. Just sick
That’s what I said.
But the Chuckle Brothers were having none of it. (thumbsup)
Mort (Kano 1000) says:
19 December, 2011 at 14:06
‘Regardless of what any of us think, these are outlawed by UEFA and by most stadia in the UK anyway and we need to abide by the law, simple as that.’
So’s smoking in the toilets.
Let’s ban the people who do that.
I see the SPL have said okay for a standing section trial , with the proviso the council and police require to approve, presumably on safety cirtificate grounds. So that will be no chance especially at Celtic Park, the police want everyone seated its easier to control and video us. Hope they can be presuaded, when you watch German football they have some fantastic standig sections.
On the unacceptable conduct update, no great change will happen here, as long as clubs show they are working with police to eradicate unacceptable behaviour and where it does happen they are shown to have dealt with any identified culprits it will be business as usual.
ernie lynch at 14:09
So’s smoking in the toilets.
Half of those arrested at the replay last season were arrested for smoking in the toilets. Seems the police are harder on those than supporters being sectarian.
Mort
A repost from the other day, for anyone who missed it,
of what i believe to be an important and very well articulated piece,
with regards to the root issues we currently face, as a club and as a support.
— – – – – — —
By day I’m ‘Mike in Toronto’ but on Sunday ‘I’m Neil Lennon’ says:
17 December, 2011 at 16:08
Seasons greetings to everyone
Hello Paul, I posted this as you closed the last thread, but, given your comment about `not picking fights you cant win`I thought I would repost it – hope that`s okay.
I understand your comment, but, I am not sure that I understand your criteria for defining what is a `win` in these circumstances. In many circumstances, I would rather lose a good fight, than be on the wrong side, even if that side wins. Given that the club was set up for chartiable purposes, in my opinion, the social dimension of Celtic has to be in the mix to some degree, and should inform how we judge Celtic and those in charge.
What do we consider to be a `win`n this situation…. the problem is that you (and this is not intended as a personal criticism in any way), have an idea in your head as to what it means to win and lose in this situation. However, (i) it is not articulated, and (ii) it may or not be shared by some on this blog, but not shared by others.
As theologian and a practicing lawyer (I know, I’ve heard all the jokes!), I see the difficutly of language, and the problems it can cause, everyday. What often I see is that people are having a debate or discussion, but are really having two separate debates without realizing it. this leads to frustration because we then feel the other isn’t hearing or listening, and this in turn leads to arguement.
We all see this acutely in many of the debates on CQN. We disagree on whether PL and NL are doing a good or bad job, for example, without first articulating exactly what job it is that we think they ought to be doing.
We cant fairly criticize PL or NL for their comments, unless and until we understand where the comments are coming from. That is, what do they understand their roles to be. To answer that, we must first ask what does Celtic mean in the year 2011.
the underlying question – and in my mind, the most important one – is ‘what is Celtic today? and what is its role in society?’ Once we discuss that, much of the underlying disagreements are understood and contextualized. But, if we are to move forward, this is a discussion that must be had.
Before anyone can properly criticize – whether it is DD, PL, NL, or anyone else involved in running Celtic, the first question that must be addressed (and one that is often ignored) is what exactly is Celtic FC? Is it a business? A football team? A community and/or symbol for the Irish/Catholic community in Scotland? A group under which anyone who opposes the insidious racism and hatred in Scotland (as personified in Ran**** FC), can join together? All of the above?
Depending on which of these aspect(s) you view Celtic to be (or perhaps something else), you reach different conclusions on how the club, and its members, are performing, or even what they are supposed to be doing.
DD, PL – what they think they are supposed to be doing, they do well (run a business on a budget). If you judge them on this criteria, then clearly they are doing okay (compared to many other clubs in England, and one in Glasgow). If you judge them on recent ROI (on the field, as opposed to the balance sheet), then they dont fare so well – not bad, but not great.
If you judge them on the criteria of being an organization that was created to aid the poor in the east end of Glasgow (which, largely, meant the Catholic community), then, clearly, they are not doing so well.
In order to properly judge, for example, the club’s recent dealings with the GB, you must first define the criteria by which they are to be judged. From a business perspective, the clubs recent comments are understandable; certain songs, and Thursday’s banner, are going to cause problems for the club, and will damage its bottom line. Of that, now, there can be no doubt, and so, the comments and position are logical. The real question is – is that (basically, a business) that Celtic is? While, realistically, that is part of it, in my opinion, Celtic is much more than that.
Celtic, like Barca, or Athletico Bilbao, are more than businesses, and, in fact, are more than football teams. They represent something more than a bottom line, or winning trophies. Clubs like these spring from, are part of, and are supposed to represent, their communities.
As such, while I understand while our club leaders speak out against things that they perceive as hurting the bottom line, I dont understand their silence on other matters. Why criticize our fans (sometimes, rightly), but remain silent on the horrors across town, and in Scotland generally?
the answer to this is probably two-fold: from a business perspective, it doesn’t help, and historically, it is clear that the ‘old firm’ (a term I do not use myself) mentality has, in fact, been the order of the day (we dont s**t on them, and they -at least as an organization – dont s**t on us).
But, for me, this isn’t good enough. I can understand PL and NL ‘protecting’ the club, but that doesn’t mean failing to stand up for the rights of the members of that club. If they feel that they can criticize celtic fans for singing the Symphony (and, personally, I still see a very large difference between political and racist/sectarian songs – but that is another discussion), then, in my opinion, they have an obligation to similarly draw attention to the hatred across town.
I see the comments on here everyday, and it frustrates me to see good Celtic men and women fighting amongst themselves, when (i) we know that they all want the best for the club, and (ii) this allows much larger evils – in Govan and throughout Scotland – to be ignored (and it is those evils that Celtic were created as a response to).
I do think that the Club have the right, if not the duty, to speak out about issues of social concern and/or things that hurt the Club. My issue is the selectivity with which it has been done of late.
In my view, the club must come out and say, not only what it is against (swearing, the GB, seemingly, or anything that might hurt its bottom line), but it (PL and NL, in particular) have a duty to say what Celtic represents today, and what it stands for, and what it is opposed to. So, I welcome their criticism of me and my views, but I expect the club to be similarly vocal in its criticism of – to be blunt – Rangers and sectrarianism. On that latter score, the club has been completely lacking leadership.
In today’s reality, and in our society, it is impossible to not consider Celtic FC (and PLC) as a business. And, as such, it has needs and demands, and will act accordingly. However, certain clubs (like Celtic) are more than that. yet, it seems like those aspects of the club are being forgotten by those in charge. In order to respect its past and history, the club must come out and condemn acts of racism and sectarianism which impact on the club and its supporters (and not just those they see as perpetrated by its followers).
Unless PL and NL see the club as only a business (and nothing more), then their recent criticism of Celtic fans is hard to accept. If it hurts the club (or even its bottom line), the club has a right to speak out. However, if Celtic is still more than a business, then, the club also has a duty to speak out on the wider issues that effect the club and its followers in Scotland.
Once we know how those in charge view the club (and their roles in it), we know whether they are doing their job, or, even, if they are the people that we want to be representing us and the club.
More important than short statements about this song or that song, the club must come out and explain what it sees as its role in society in Glasgow, and Scotland today.
So, is Celtic a PLC… or a repository for (c)atholic ideas, and a vehicle to right wrongs in society…. both, or some kind of hybrid of the two…. or something entirely different.
but, befofre we can talk about `winning`or `losing`we have to ask what it is we are trying to win…. a balanced budget, or SPL an European titles or an organization that aims to make society better…. or all of the above, and in what measure.
I am not saying that I have the answers. But, a lot of the discussion of late is about the details. What we need first is a discussion on the larger issue of the club’s identity in today’s society. Once we reach some consensus on that, I think much of the other debate will resolve itself.
Some (probably many) will think this is all nonsense, but I think that we are fighting today to define Celtic`s identity in Scotland …. all I am saying is lets have that debate out in the open.
anyways, just some thoughts, and in and out today, if anyone wants to chat.
Whatever you think of the rights and wrongs of the matter, it’s sad to see the club’s reputation being damaged. I’ve just seen headlines on lots of Dutch news websites about ‘UEFA investigating Celtic again”. Many people only see the headline and nothing else. A lot of goodwill towards Celtic is being squandered.