My attention was drawn to the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations (SCVO) blog yesterday, also covered by Joe O’Rourke on the Association site. SCVO Director of Pubic Affairs, John Downie, writes about the “proposed bill on sectarianism” but seems to get muddled in his role as a director of SCVO and using SCVO resources to speak as a Rangers fan; in this instance blaming Catholic schools for sectarianism. How ironic.
Downie writes:
“We’ve previously seen Rangers fans outraged by Celtic goalie Artur Boric crossing himself during games but less bothered – obviously – by about our own players (like Vladimir Weiss last season) doing the same thing.”
“Our own players”! Is SCVO some closed shop where they talk about Artur Boruc as a “Celtic goalie” and Vladimi Weiss as one of our “own”?
So far, so disturbing, but Downie then uses the article to ride to the rescue with:
“The solution:
Personally, as someone who grew up in the East End of Glasgow and lives in the west of Scotland, I agree with some of what Conservative MSP John Lamont says. In my opinion one key causes of sectarianism is Scotland continuing to have separate denominational and non-denominational schools.”
So, if only we didn’t have Catholic schools, players like Artur Boruc and “our” Vladimir Weiss would be able to cross themselves free of harassment. Bizarrely, Downie’s article is subtitled “treating the symptoms not the causes”. I don’t think he was trying to suggest it’s best to treat the symptoms.
The cause of intolerance is not differences in ethnic, religious or sexuality, it is ignorant bigots. It is ludicrous to suggest tackling intolerance by assimilating people into some mono-culture. It’s downright dangerous to blame a minority for intolerance of, and by, them, a sentiment that will only fan the flames of hatred.
The European Examiner reports that various politicians have called for Mr Downie’s removal but SCVO chief exec, Martin Sime, apparently sees nothing wrong in SCVO running a blog discussing one of “our” Rangers players and the “Celtic goalie”, while simultaneously blaming educationally successful faith schools for sectarianism. SCVO has offered a metaphorical No Surrender to resignation calls.
A brief comment for those who don’t live in Scotland…. Attitudes like this once prevailed but are harder to find these days. We are a modern, progressive, society, for the most part.
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Philis:
Are you advocating politicians and economists are right to dictate, define and/or deny soul and spirituality over individual rights to choose and determine and to their own beliefs and comfort ?
A prominent sports broadcaster in England recently became a Catholic. The main reason was that his daughter wanted to become a Catholic so that she could make her First Holy Communion and he wanted to support her. He was brought up Church of England.
He and his wife sent the wee lassie to the local Catholic primary school because it was the best in the area by a long way. There was and is a battle for non-Catholic families to secure a much-prized place for their weans in that excellent school. The sports broadcaster and his wife were surprised that the whole experience should make such a profound impression on their daughter and, by extension, on the rest of their family. But the Lord’s ways are not our ways and are, in fact, as high above our ways as the heavens are above the earth.
Not really got time to join in the debate. Just thought I’d throw in this wee anecdote.
And before anyone says it. Anyone who thinks the wee lassie is too young to be making these decisions has clearly not encountered the wee lassie in question.
kitalba – What a strange question to ask me. (thumbsup)
craig whyte was trying to get a ticket bus.
check out the graffiti on the wall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz2wRjlsS8U&feature=related
tomtheleedstim says:
10 February, 2012 at 13:54
It never surprises me when lapsed catholics and even some ardent atheists find religion when they’re about to meet their death.
Awe Naw ——-
If she has a Thai passport she will need a Visa to enter the UK.
Take the necessary documents re identities / residence / proof of marriage etc to a Brit Embassy/ Consulate and she will be given entry to the Promised Land.
not sure if this has been posted but I understand Whytey lost his case against the roofing company today.
you did not answer it
If you have a chance check out Gordon Js article about the “good of Scottish football”
According to Gordons interpretation the huns should not be voting to get into the SPL but instead they should be voting to get back into a lower league instead.
From a moral and a practical view point there is no other alternative for a newco
Morally
Why should the bottom side (hibs?) get relegated and the bankrupt side stay in the league?
Why should the bankrupt club simply wipe out their debt and be able to start again as if nothing happened?
Practical
From a more practical approach, if we assume that the huns go bankrupt in April, they only have 3 or 4 months to completely restructure their organisation. The practicalities of
Going into administration
Going Bankrupt
Leaving the league
Setting up newco
Applying to join the league
The leagues decision
Getting someone fit and proper to buy out craig whytes newco
Getting someone to buy the park off craig whyte and or ticketus
Re signing all the players for new co
Start training as if nothing happened
All the above to be completed in 3 months?
(Jeez it took them about three months to finally muster up the brass neck to give NL a 8 game ban)
Each of the above tasks would need to be started and completed in about a week for that to happen
It’s a tall order for anyone to rebuild a club in 3 months, it probably took wee Fergus 3 years.
The huns cannot provide enough guarantees that they will not be back in the same position again next season.
They have probably already given away a large percentage of their incoming for the next 3 or 4 years
They have no European income for 3 years
Evens newcos financial future in not guaranteed
The SPL shouldn’t even be confident that they could fulfil their fixtures next season.
Murdochboy – it’s a safe bet.
philvisreturns says:
10 February, 2012 at 14:21
‘I sense you dislike the middle classes,’
Marx reckoned the worst of all vices was hypocrisy.
The sharp elbowed middle classes pretending to be religious in order to secure an educational advantage for their children bears out the old man’s opinion. What kind of message is that giving to the children? Lying and cheating is OK?
Ernie – it wasn’t modern when I did it. Anything but in fact.
kitalba – I think it’s pretty clear from the statements I made some moments ago that I am firmly on the side of personal liberty and individual choice. (thumbsup)
Paul
There has been much musing on here about what the followers of the Foe Malign will do with their time, follow following the dissolution of their club and Staruday afternoon diversion.
Perhaps one of the things they will do with their new-found free time will be to turn their attention to any obvious symbols of Irish Catholicism …
Time will tell.
A wee thought on Catholic Schools.
Just exactly who did it suit in 1918, that Scotland’s, not exactly universally loved Catholic/Irish community should find itself in receipt of such a good deal education wise?
I was educated in Catholic Schools. I have no problem with them. I have a problem with people who falsely accuse them of stoking the flames of sectarianism when it is patently untrue.
HOWEVER it is surely possible to educate our children in the same schools, allow for teaching of various religions and now and then, when necessary, separate the children for preparation for sacraments and so on.
Or perhaps it should be the job of the lay people of various parishes to prepare children for sacraments?
My own children attend Catholic schools. My parents would be appalled at my suggesting that perhaps there is no great ‘need’ for catholic schools any more (although there was in the past). But I just think that the time has come to entertain the notion and discuss the issue sensibly.
More importantly the whole issue is likely to distract me from the immensely pleasurable activity of laughing at rangers right now. Are we to expect a ‘songs’ article next and then a resurrection of the ‘Poppy debate just to keep us from overheating on the Liquidation of the Dark Side?
greenjedi says:
10 February, 2012 at 14:18
– > No they aren’t, they are non demoninational.
Philvis
Not teaching religion in school is not the same as teaching atheism.
It is just withdrawing from the “what religion is the right one” game.
ernie lynch – Marx reckoned the worst of all vices was hypocrisy.
The sharp elbowed middle classes pretending to be religious in order to secure an educational advantage for their children bears out the old man’s opinion. What kind of message is that giving to the children? Lying and cheating is OK?
I don’t think any society has ever been free of hypocrisy, Ernie.
Especially not societies that said they were based on the writings of Marx, where they starved, machine-gunned, imprisoned, impoverished and spied on the workers to make them free.
Indeed there was probably no less hypocrisy in the world when Jesus and his apostles walked the earth.
Perhaps hypocrisy is part of the human condition and we shouldn’t be in a hurry to despise people who are, after all, just trying to secure a decent education for their little ones. There are greater and more destructive hypocrisies we should train our scorn on. (thumbsup)
Philvis:
“When it comes to Islam, he squeaks like a mouse.
Dawkins will courageously insult the sort of nice, non-violent people who collect money for SCIAF or CAFOD or who do the flowers at their local Anglican Church, but he’s not so keen on insulting the sort of people who might hit back.”
So, let’s take a look at that…….
Christians are “nice, non-violent people”
Moslems are “the sort of people who might hit back”
You are right, Philvis, in that Catholic schools are not themselves the cause of bigotry.
Bigotry comes from an uninformed and unreasoning fear of anything which differs from a person’s own beliefs.
That, and an intellectually-bankrupt tendency towards sweeping and meaningless generalisations.
Gotta love personal liberty and individual choice. For adults. Kids probably benefit from a bit of shielding from the more dangerous facts of life. In my estimation, religion is something we should not push on children.
celticinthesun – Not teaching religion in school is not the same as teaching atheism.
No, but removing the right of parents to educate their children in their own faith is undeniably a value judgement and an assault on religion. (thumbsup)
I suppose the real question might be
If you remove the Denom schools, how will the curriculum be arranged when Catholic emancipation is being taught?
Will the hundreds of years of discrimination against Catholics in Scotland be discussed in an open and fair way?
Will the excesses and corruption of some medieval Popes be discussed in an equally fair manner?
Who will guard against the Downie’s of this world being responsible for poisoning the minds of the children?
In fact, it’s clear that genuine integration of schools can only happen when neither side feel threatened by that prospect. That’s most definitely not the case in Scotland. There would have to be a systematic and ruthless change to attitudes amongst adults, before we try to force the issue on to our children. Chlidren mimic what they see and hear around them. Paul was right, it starts in the home.
HH
RWE CSC
Jeg er Neil Lennon-Greeninbingley – That, and an intellectually-bankrupt tendency towards sweeping and meaningless generalisations.
Yes, try to convince yourself that what I said wasn’t true.
There’s a good chap. (thumbsup)
oglach
Thanks
I think I will take your advice
SOT
yes but she has a permanent German residency and work permit and as she is married to me and that is enough under the EU directive 2004/58/EC according to a hot shot immigrations lawyer I spoke to in London
This EEA family VISA is a bit of a scam as legally WE are entitled freedom of movement across the EU .. even in her passport was a North Korean one
Hail Hail
On the Newco situation I presume we want Hibs to finish bottom as there is little chance that they will vote themselves into relegation whereas Dunfermline might have their are twisted.
Folly Folly says:
10 February, 2012 at 14:31
I think their allegiance will be tempting to some other clubs, the big question is who’ll make the biggest overtures?
LuxCelt says:
10 February, 2012 at 14:32
greenjedi says:
10 February, 2012 at 14:18
– > No they aren’t, they are non demoninational.
……….
So why are School Chaplains in Non Demoninational Schools Church of Scotland Ministers? Indeed why do they hava a Chaplain at all?
My wife is a dht of a faith school, my daughter attends the same school. Not once have i ever had my daughter come home with homework on sectairianism. She is taught, respect, tollerance, understanding etc of all other faiths within the curriculum.
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I recall a conversation I had a few years ago with a hun friend. He wouldn’t believe me that anti protestant stuff was not a daily subject in RC schools. The school argument is a myth.
Celtic First
Can you name the broadcaster.
Paul67 says:
10 February, 2012 at 13:56
Guys, still having to delete around four comments per day because unbroken lines of —— or links extend the page….
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Is the blog user friendly then?
murdochbhoy says:
10 February, 2012 at 14:25
tomtheleedstim says:
10 February, 2012 at 13:54
It never surprises me when lapsed catholics and even some ardent atheists find religion when they’re about to meet their death.
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Murdochbhoy
Are these conversions based on fear? Fear of dying? Hedging their bets?
Not worth much if they are. I’m sure God sees through these converts for the chancers they are.
philvisreturns says:
10 February, 2012 at 14:35
celticinthesun – Not teaching religion in school is not the same as teaching atheism.
No, but removing the right of parents to educate their children in their own faith is undeniably a value judgement and an assault on religion. (thumbsup)
——————————————————————————————————–
Is it not the parents responsibility to educate their children in the faith? Leaving it to others seems a little lazy! Removing Catholic Schools doesn’t remove the ‘right’ to educate children in faith.
philvisreturns says:
10 February, 2012 at 14:34
Yes bad things done in name of Marx and bad things done in name of Christianity.
The point remains that the widespread practice in England of middle class parents pretending to belong to a religious faith in order to secure an educational advantage for their children makes a mockery of what faith schools are supposed to represent.
You’re weakening your argument by failing to acknowledge that.
Philvis
“No, but removing the right of parents to educate their children in their own faith”
Can’t they do that at home?
In the same way I was educated in Celtic, good hygiene and exemplary personal grooming.
Philvis:
Beneath the sneering, is your reply supposed to mean that you actually do believe that
Christians are “nice, non-violent people”
Moslems are “the sort of people who might hit back” ?
Have always thought it odd that many of those who consider it wrong to segregate kids on religious grounds, have no problem with segregating kids on the grounds of sending them to the socially ‘Right’ kind of school, where they will receive the ‘Right ‘ kind of education, from the ‘Right’ kind of teachers, in the company of the offspring of other ‘Right Minded’ parents.
I suppose that the above endless sentence betrays my own less than perfect Catholoc education.
tooheys new says:
10 February, 2012 at 14:36
On the Newco situation I presume we want Hibs to finish bottom as there is little chance that they will vote themselves into relegation whereas Dunfermline might have their are twisted.
Great point. Rangers loan Dunfermline a player and let one go there free. They already forging links?
LB