When engaging in a civil case under Scots Law, where one witness’ testimony contradicts another, a sheriff will rule not just on what witnesses actually say, but on their demeanour, assertiveness, body language and other perceivable traits (I’m no lawyer but I’ve first-hand experience of this).
Alek Tonev’s SFA Appeal panel, faced with contradictory evidence, explained their decision on this basis, “Tonev gave his evidence in a guarded and hesitant manner”, whereas Shay Logan “gave his evidence in a careful and measured manner”.
Alek, Celtic, you and me are free to disagree with this verdict, or cite the fact that the player may have appeared hesitant because he was so uncomfortable speaking English, he attended with an interpreter (who was unused). In these circumstances hesitancy appears normal, I can’t imagine speaking at a hearing conducted in French with anything but hesitancy, so to find against the player on this basis is blatantly incongruous, but that is a side point.
Celtic threatened to take the SFA to the Council of Arbitration for Sport (CAS). My hunch is that before this Appeal was rejected, the SFA’s counsel confirmed that the panel were able to judge on matters of demeanour and manner.
CAS do not re-hear cases. In this instance, they will only determine if the grounds on which the decision was made, and subsequent punishment, were within the rules of the governing body which conducted the appeal. It is inconceivable that the SFA, who employed counsel, would return a verdict which they knew could be referred to CAS, if it broke one of their own rules.
Like you, I don’t have enough information to judge one way or the other on this one, so I’ll offer no view. Don’t be stressed that our reputation will be damaged by the charge. These incidents are so rare at Celtic they are headline news and recalled for decades (literally). This is a good thing.
Will get round to the moves being put on the SFA on other matters shortly, lots to cover this week.
Got your CQN Annual yet? Just over one week until Christmas!
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Repost as I was uncertain which timeline I was on ..
Jungle Jim Hot Smoked @ 20:42
The Secrets of Quantum Physics on BBC 4 at 9
If quantum entanglement was practical I could save a fortune on stamps for Xmas cards – they would just be there.
Only issue would be uncertainty whether they had arrived or not.
Also be able to stay away from Halloween School play – keep spooky acting at a distance :-)
prestonpans bhoys
22:09 on
16 December, 2014
Of course Santa exists he gave us Sevco………..
——————————————–
Yet more proof!
On the balance of probabilities I’d say Santa exists….
If there is a ‘loophole’ (or guilt based on demeanour), it’s guaranteed a team will exploit it.
Teams will use these precedents to get targeted players banned, if it’s as simple as ‘your word versus mine’ with attitude.
We could form a breakaway league if we wanted. Us, other disaffected Scottish and European clubs. Take Euro bans. Anything has to be better than this. PL could try force the change.
I’m not saying if Tonev is guilty or innocent – just that the process is an antiquated joke.
Cot now. The ole body is aching with awe the limping. Getting easier, just not quick enough. Night. KTF.
Weefra HH praying to Wee Oscar.
RWE couldn’t agree more.
Would the SFA’s balance of probabilities test apply to Mike Ashley’s involvement with running both Newcastle and Sevco?
HH!
Not an anti board rant, just thinking that the InterMilan tickets about £3 too expensive , anyone else think so as well?
Asking people to stump up in January will be tough enough , we will probably be lucky to shift 45,000 at the asking price in my opinion.
Racsim,Racism,Sexism,Homophobia
Oh we cant have that now can we
Mario Ballotelli, a black man with jewish parents,tweets or retweets a silly joke which attempts to make a joke about how stupid racism is and wait for it….he is accused of being racist and anti semitic because his tweet was offensive to black people and jews
Meanwhile in the real world,gay people are bashed,women are raped and white policemen kill unarmed black teenagers with impunity
Ah yes…but we wont tolerate racism (especially from them vulgar bulgarian fenians)
Fight it Celtic.
And while you’re at it, it’s time to stand up to EUFA too.
I’m opposed to the use of smokes and flares but to single out Celtic for one flare when we continually see their widespread use all over Europe is laughable.
HT
Dress better and stop smoking
Love
I’d just like to point out one small detail to the MSM, who seem to be revelling in the scandal propagated by “Celtic’s Aleksander Tonev”…
He is in fact Aston Villa’s Aleksander Tonev.
Ian Wright has started as many games for Celtic as Tonev, and Juninho’s Celtic appearances outnumber those of Tonev by almost three to one. And both of them were actually employed by Celtic… but few of us look back and associate with either of them.
I know the verdict has been brought about on extremely tenuous points of (football) law, and I am personally unable to pass judgement upon the case, but in light of all the bad press I wouldn’t be in the slightest bit upset if Celtic simply told Aston Villa that Tonev’s services were no longer required.
It is Aston Villa’s job to protect the reputation of their employee, not Celtic’s. We have enough distractions already with fending off all the other negative media spin.
SOAL
:-)))
Does anyone know if the SFA normally publish transcripts from these kinds of proceedings or did we ask them to and they complied?
gerryfaethebrig
21:30 on 16 December, 2014
Mind drop me an e-mail lennybhoycfc@gmail.com
Keep the Faith!
Hail Hail!
hamiltontim
22:22 on 16 December, 2014
Absolute detest Flares and you are right there are worse Offenders out there, especially on the Continent.
Keep the Faith!
Hail Hail!
Malt being sipped to you SOAL!! Cheers!!!
SOAL
You still eating yer birthday straw x
Lennybhoy
They seek him here, they seek him there,
His clothes are loud, but never square.
It will make or break him so he’s got to buy the best,
‘Cause he’s a dedicated follower of fashion.
what control does Celtic have of away fans? Can anyone get a ticket and let off a flare to deliberately tarnish the name of our club?
Why should Celtic be punished if there is no certainty that the fan is actually a celtic supporter.
HT
Naw
I got a ear and nose trimmer
Keep up
Alec Tonev will be going through hell just now. Hope he can cope with all the venom heading his way.
I don’t know if he did it, but the “victim” has shown himself to be anything but “reliable” on at least 3 occasions since.
The SFA need to show the peepil that every chance to hammer Celtic will be taken. Twas always thus.
The Spirit of Arthur Lee
22:30 on
16 December, 2014
Lennybhoy
They seek him here, they seek him there,
His clothes are loud, but never square.
It will make or break him so he’s got to buy the best,
‘Cause he’s a dedicated follower of fashion.
——————————————————-
And when he pulls his frilly nylon panties right up tight…
Back of the bus again. What next, SFA turn a blind eye to dual ownership and approve Ashley’s Sevco takeover? You bet.
“If you tolerate this, then your children will be next”
SOAL @10.23
You’re a funny, funny ghuy!
Night Timdom
HH jamesgang
STEBHOY. 2230
I reckon they might go on the balance of probability.
NatKnow
22:25 on
16 December, 2014
Does anyone know if the SFA normally publish transcripts from these kinds of proceedings or did we ask them to and they complied?
=======
Not normal but the original tribunal agreed that in this instance the contents of the appeal tribunal could be published. Its members remain anonymous.
If you read the report, you will find a reference to this aspect.
Picking up fines because of the behaviour of fans in Europe is now becoming far too regular for my liking.
For every Juve or Barca home game where there are brilliant displays which enhance our reputation, we now have our reputation tarnished by someone who runs on the pitch against Milan or holds up a F*** UEFA banner.
The club needs to address, and, unless we sort, this is only going to go one way, and become more expensive to the club and ST holders like myself.
Until we meet again…
Keep the Faith!
Hail Hail!
Clashcitybhoy
The next away game in Milan you can buy tickets in the banks
Love
Paul67 et al
I could be wrong but I think there might be some Quantum Physics involved here…
Then again I could be right…
Celtic threatened to take the SFA to the Council of Arbitration for Sport (CAS). It is inconceivable to believe CFC have been duped however congruous that may be.
NatKnow 2225-
Lord Bonomy specifically instructed the SFA to publish the transcripts of the hearings, against normal practice, because he thinks that all Celtic fans are paranoid internet bampots who would see an anti-Celtic conspiracy in the decision of the judicial panel.
This is what he says in the written transcript of the appeal decision:-
“There has inevitably been ill-informed speculation about the reasons for the Disciplinary Tribunal deciding to uphold the complaint and impose a seven-match suspension. Against that background the Appellate Tribunal consider that it would be in the interests of the parties, in the interests of the wider football community, and in the general public interest to publish this decision and the terms of the original Disciplinary Tribunal decision, thus ensuring that any ensuing debate is well-informed. The Appellate Tribunal, therefore, suggest to the SFA that they should exercise their discretion in terms of paragraph 17.5.2 of the Judicial Panel Protocol to disclose both decisions and the reasons therefor.
Iain Bonomy,
Chairman, Judicial Panel Appellate Tribunal,
16 December”
Its worth noting that at the time of writing there had been no speculation at all about the decision of the Appeal Panel as this had not been published. Furthermore the appeal panel actually sat and considered the appeal 2 weeks ago and then had an adjournment which is unprecedented in these cases. A cynic like me would be inclined to think that this smacks of getting their story straight and taking the time to write up their decision in as watertight a fashion as possible.
SOAL
Every good hillbilly should have one.
Morrisey the 23rd
I am no legal expert, but I suspect Celtic played their cards too early on this one.
By issuing threats about what they would do next, they ensured the SPFL sought higher level legal advice ( a QC , I think) before they issued their findings on the appeal.
As Paul’s leader intimates, they seem to have nowhere else to go on this one.
HT
Poor reply after 30 mins mucker
LOVE
iki
22:40 on
16 December, 2014
NatKnow
22:25 on
16 December, 2014
Does anyone know if the SFA normally publish transcripts from these kinds of proceedings or did we ask them to and they complied?
=======
Not normal but the original tribunal agreed that in this instance the contents of the appeal tribunal could be published. Its members remain anonymous.
If you read the report, you will find a reference to this aspect.
———————————————
Many thanks, iki. I’m wondering why. Am I right in saying that Celtic asked for it to be published? I’d like to see all disciplinary and tribunal findings published. The SFA are an opaque organisation and this (if it were normal practice) would be a small step forward.
In addition to this, I’d like to say that I think the accusation of racism these days is a very serious one. Finding someone guilty on the basis of whether an anonymous panel found an accused person’s demeanour believable is not a sufficient basis. A serious charge with serious consequences. The quality of proof required to prove the charge should reflect that.
Additionally, in this case the burden of proof appears to have been on the person accused.
Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit?
One gets the feeling that every Celtic transgression or perceived transgression, however minor, is being jumped upon and reported with vigour and exaggeration.
Broken seats, flares, racism, riots, coin throwing, frightening children, land deals, living wage….and so it goes on.
I wonder why that is?
Ok
Night Night
Thanks for today
Love