I was considerably alarmed at this morning’s Daily Record article, which appears to equate calls for an inquiry into an alleged conspiracy to subvert tax law, as well as SFA and SPL rules, on a level with sectarianism. Most clearly here:
“Of course, this will infuriate the self-proclaimed, proud ‘bampots’ on social media toiling away 24/7 in pursuit of justice for Scottish football.
“Their irreversibly entrenched view will always be that ‘the Protestant establishment club cheated on an industrial scale’”.
I’m disturbed that so many people on social media are having their views on rule breaking caricatured as an anti-Protestant witch-hunt.
This is wildly inaccurate, sinister and inflammatory. A sign, perhaps, of the direction of travel in this debate.
This bit is really, REALLY, important.
If there is a perception that there is a risk to social media users this debate is closed – trust me on this one. Right now, some are asking themselves, “How much sectarian hatred are the media prepared to stir up if we talk about this?”
Convince people their club’s record is being questioned, not because of rule breaking, but for religious reasons, and you open Pandora’s Box – and we all know this.
Don’t get angry. This angle is thus far isolated, should be mocked and we should quickly move on.
If you want the debate to take place, don’t lose focus and stick to the point: were tax laws, SFA and SPL rules broken, if so, was this an oversight, or was there a conspiracy to subvert the rules and earlier inquiries?
Perhaps most importantly, this is the time for other clubs and their fans to have their say.
Jim Craig and Brendan Sweeney on CQN TONIGHT!
Lisbon Lion, Jim Craig, and Celt for Change, Brendan Sweeny, Live chat on CQN tonight.
I’m absolutely delighted we have yet another Lisbon Lion, Jim Craig, on CQN tonight, as well as a one of the most influential fans in our history, Brendan Sweeny (who will cringe at reading that).
Brendan has researched and written Celtic: The Early Years, forward by Jim. It is the most incredible account of the how and why a football club was formed in Parkhead in 1888, and the seismic events which shaped its future during the Early Years.
Both will be on CQN tonight from 7:30, you can ask questions on the blog and chat to them. Ask Jim about those great times, his career after football, or what’s going on at the club now.
Brendan, as an integral part of Celts for Change, Jungle Bhoys and now Celtic Graves Society, has been a force of nature for the Celtic cause. This is also about as far into the limelight as he’s ever likely to emerge!
Premium Seats competition for Kilmarnock game on Saturday
Magners, Celtic’s main sponsor, are offering fans the chance to win a pair of Premium Seat tickets in the Jock Stein Stand to the match. All you have to do is answer the following question:
Who was Celtic manager when Kilmarnock won their first game in over half a century?
Email answer to celticquicknews@gmail.com with the answer in the email SUBJECT box.
Competition closes at 22:00 tonight, so this is a one day target!
On another subject, Ad hominem, def:
An ad hominem (Latin for “to the man” or “to the person”), is an attack on an argument made by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, rather than attacking the argument directly. When used inappropriately, it is a logical fallacy in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticised.
Just saying……..
Time for some Labi Siffre tunes.
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My dear celtic friends. This is of course the sign of an institutionally sectarian country. One that will use religion to belittle arguments because, well, they view you all as less than human.
But my god is it rich of Paul to call for other clubs to act whilst celtic hide behind the skirts of its supporters.
Brass neck indeed.
Art Of War,
All the best for your sister-in-law.
Art of War
Thoughts with you and yours, heading into town just the excuse i need to pop into cathedral and light a candle for your SIL.
trip trap, trip trap!
Art of War
Consider it done!
Very best wishes to all concerned.
CanalaMar from previous.
Thanks for your perspective on matters relating to LNS regarding eligibility/ SFM and my decision to use that blog to pursue matters.
Just to put you straight.
As I think you know I never got involved in that discussion around LNS because the points being made about why no other conclusion could be reached on the basis of evidence presented was one I could not find fault with. If I remember correctly many argued Bryson should have been challenged by SPL lawyer but wasn’t.
I saw little point trying to argue that LNS should be revisited because there were too many making the point that LNS had it right on evidence presented and it was too late to tackle Bryson. I did not like that but practically I saw no point in arguing the toss so I embarked on my LNS project as you call it.
(In doing so those arguing LNS had to be accepted changed their minds)
The journo guy is not a friend. He is a contact who desperately wanted to undo Bryson (he has no love of RFC) but realised that unpalatable as it was, points deduction was not an automatic consequence of misregistration and had examples in support.
His point was not to get caught in thinking invalidity of registration was a basis for ineligibility and not to put too much emphasis on it. Not to dismiss it.
He may have been wrong but he had gone down that road himself and could see why an association would want to protect itself from consequences of retrospective action, so would not bind itself to automatic points deduction. His genuine fear is that it becomes the focus of an argument that can be challenged instead of one’s that cannot.
As I stated we have two good reasons to carry out an investigation and one of them came from my decision to use SFM as the vehicle because the compromising of LNS had to be something supporters of all clubs would buy into. Two days of debate on CQN and that issue would have gone.
A letter from a Celtic only blog re the compromising of LNS to SPL would have got binned. One from across the support base to their lawyers stood a chance of being answered so events have shown that judgement to be right No?
On your point re Bryson and eligibility I suggested involving FIFA on the eligibility issue if an investigation happens as I always thought from my days of running an amateur team that misregistration meant a game overturned. I’d like clarity on that.
Getting that investigation first is what matters then what rules apply after it can be settled.
– See more at: http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/martin-oneill-takes-us-to-school-again/comment-page-10/#comment-2720559
DBBIA .
Don’t spend all your pocket money on tin foil –
You might want these ————–
Legends of Old Time Music ( County Records ) .
Sadly CD only but 4 CDs packed with greatness . A snip for $ 49.50 plus p and p .
Scott Fagan –South Atlantic Blues ( Saint Cecilia. LP / CD ) ..
A newly reissued gem from 68 . Only obsessives like me bought it when it came out — Highly recommended .
Thanks to all. I really appreciate it.
Burgas- week aff work, painting and decorating…tools now downed and heading to St Ninians to light a candle also. Probably have to form a queue behind my ma and da :-)
Go Alison!
8 ISIS suspects arrested at Istanbul Airport,the Fenerbache game needs to be looked at by the Club i would suggest.
Scoddish fitba……………this is your low point in a litany of low points..
The good men and women of Scotland have a wide open goal here, and all clubs involved need to make the right choice. The Rectum knows exactly what it is doing becuase it has been doing it to us and ours for decades.
The Rectum sleekits know fine well the tactics they need to employ to shift the argument into an area they can cover easily and where they can continue to denigrate genuine supporters of Celtic and supporters of football in this country. Behind the scenes contacts will be brow-beaten by these neanderthals with laptops.
It’s win or bust.
HH.
Shameful sleekit nonsense from
…the usual suspect(s) should not defect us from the simple truth.
l……
The ‘real’ (and I struggle for a better term in context) sports journalists have known all along that the eventual demise of Sevco was inevitable. However they’ve done their job in leading the hordes along. However they’ve now reached the point where they need to put a gap between themselves and the spin, so that when the time comes they can pretend they’d predicted it far in advance,
Expect to see more articles from guest commenters in the coming weeks.
!! Bada Bing !! @1 33 .
Moroccan State Tele claiming that the 8 arrested in Istanbul had arrived on a flight from Casablanca
Sof TUNIS – thanks for the recommendation, especially with ole Santa dustin’ down his sledge.
Although I admit to finding a little banjo goes a long way…
SOUTH OF TUNIS on 18TH NOVEMBER 2015 1:46 PM
!! Bada Bing !! @1 33 .
Moroccan State Tele claiming that the 8 arrested in Istanbul had arrived on a flight from Casablanca
CNN saying they were trying to enter Germany illegally ,we need to look at the Fenerbache game……
Paul67
Surely in thos day and age one of the anti bigotry programmes funded by the Scottish government would have something to say about the DR’S policy of allowing inflammatory views to be given such a wide platform.
The DR just crossed a line.
It’s obviously level5 at full tilt here they write the story, get a part time unemployed so called journalist to put his name to it, one that no one knows, bungs the DR to print it, and they are off at plumpton, no othere (so called) full time journalist would touch that article with a barge pole, it’s bigoted, bile, and sectarian, and should seriously be looked into by the powers that be, and he refers to others as Internet bam pots, WOW!
Art of War
Thoughts and prayers with her, you, your family and the medical team charged with the responsibility.
This is a complex procedure and only people who are thought fit enough in other aspects of their health are eligible so the medics must believe that it is the right thing to do. So take some solace that she is getting the opportunity. Modern medicine is really fantastic.
73 hours to KO but I am not sure if I have seen a post about the Kilmarnock game !
Gordon
Lustig Boyata Simunovic Tierney
Forrest Brown Rogic Armstrong Commons
Griffiths.
That team gives the Internationalists a wee bit more recovery time.
Murray V Nadal coming up. Could be a good one. Andy to win , I think.
JJ
From Celtic Fanzone.
In a democracy an impartial media is crucial to the working of the nation. They are there to represent the arguments of both sides in any debate, be it political, sporting or other.
It’s crucial in a fair society.
Well, that’s the theory. Reality tells us something entirely different.
Honesty, integrity and well meaning all fall by the wayside when it comes to money and power.
Just look at the way the media in this little country of our has handled the Biggest scandal in British sporting history. They have become almost double jointed in their bid to do anything except call the culprits to task.
For example, in today’s Daily Record, a retired hack by the name of Alex Mooney has put his own spin on the EBT scandal by shifting the blame on to us. We are to blame for Rangers cheating, if you read Mooney’s article.
At this point, we’d like to point out Mooney also ran a similar piece on the 11th December 2012 under the headline ‘The Witch-Hunt That Shamed Scotland’ on….The Rangers Standard website.
How’s that for impartiality?
Or Roddy Forsyth, a former shareholder and debenture holder in the old Rangers(IL) putting his sporting loyalties before his professional duties as he tries to scare the rest of Scottish football with ludicrous claims about loss of finances. An almost Armageddon rant.
Or Richard Wilson, who last week on Radio Scotland was almost in tears trying to plead the case for his heroes, only days after a Law Lord found them guilty of the illegal use of EBT’s.
I could go on but I think you get the gist.
Only one Scottish journalist was prepared to say what he really thought about the whole Rangers liquidation, new club/old club fiasco, 5WA, the shoehorning of the new club into the Third Division etc, etc.
His name is Jim Spence. And we all know what he endured for being the ONLY impartial sports journalist in Scotland. Impartial to the core.
From TCN
Hail, Hail.
It’s murder when we have these international breaks, and especially for us Scots. The lack of Celtic games leave a vacuum which is usually filled by mince and nonsense. The on going RFC/Sevco omnishambles has for many been a welcome distraction especially because it’s hilarious watching the SMSM twist this way and that, to attempt to get out of the knot that they themselves have tied themselves in.
Fortunately the daily sales of these ‘esteemed’ titles are, as they say in Glesga ‘dyin’ oan thur erse’. However the good news is that we, as consumers can hasten their demise. As Celtic fans we are very lucky to have our own fans media run by bright people who see through the lies and convey to us the truths. Sites like Phil Mac Giolla Bhain , CQN, The Clumpany, On Fields Of Green , Hail, Hail Media provide a buffer between us, the Celtic support and the conflicted media who try to spin their untrustworthy narrative. Fortunately all these sites are happy to be involved with TCN.
Now back to us, as consumers hastening the demise of this glib and shameless media. I ask all Celtic fans and indeed all Scottish football fans to let the good guys named above to take a hit for us, one for the team as they say. Instead of buying the rags or visiting their websites allow these guys and other Scottish fans media to pass on anything in these rags etc that may be relevant to us, in their own words.
Remember every time you visit SMSM sites you are in effect funding them albeit indirectly. So take a step back and allow the good guys to interpret and challenge the media’s twisted narrative. We automatically update all ‘bampot’ news sites on our front page every 15 mins. Keep an eye on TCN for the latest news that actually matters
AOW,
Prayers for a successful procedure and speedy recuperation and condolences with the Donors family and loved ones.
This guy in hail hail media seems to have a different view?
Posted On 18 Nov, 2015 – By Krys – With 1 Comment
197d604a9188af0fa823e6cb76357581So it was pretty quiet while I was on holiday for a couple of weeks then?
Obviously the big news was France.
In that there’ll be plenty of Irish in France next year!
I’m still massively disappointed that Scotland blew it – mainly against Georgia – but there’s a good deal of comfort in knowing that the three teams who finished above Scotland in the group all qualified. Not just because it lends credence to the claim that we were in the toughest qualifying group, but because I’ll be able to back both Poland and Ireland in the finals next summer.
Having a multi-cultural background is great.
Some would do well to remember that, especially when thinking of Muslims and Syrians, which of course relates to the major events in France last week. There’s a lot I could say about that, but this isn’t the time or the place for anything other than my condolences to those affected.
Of course, the other big news in Scottish football that broke while I was away was the surprising news that HMRC won their latest appeal in the Court of Session in the Big Tax Case. I say “surprising” because I fully expected them to have to get the appeals away from Edinburgh and its establishment before they would win.
Of course, this victory is still open to appeal from several parties including Rangers (in liquidation) so it may not be the end of the story. But even without appeals I doubt we’ve heard the end of EBTs as I wouldn’t be surprised if HMRC use this as a precedent to go chasing after bigger fish in England. I’ve always had the impression this was a test case in their eyes, with several other EPL clubs also using EBTs extensively – and to much higher values than Rangers.
Closer to home though, there have been calls from many for a revisiting Lord Nimmo Smith’s rulings on dual contracts and more widely the acknowledgement that Rangers cheated and should be stripped of titles.
Well sadly, as much as I believe that to be the case, there are two major problems I can see with it.
Firstly, Lord Nimmo Smith’s belief that there was “no sporting advantage” may sound farcical – and it is because they wouldn’t have done it otherwise – but that claim was never based on what Rangers did but more on what the SPL couldn’t do. It was their rules that were so badly written that let Sandy Bryson of the SFA come away with the astounding claim that the dual contracts could only be in breach once they were aware of it and nothing could be done retrospectively.
Given what we’ve all witnessed, it really didn’t surprise me in the least that the SPL were so amateurish that it appeared as if had their rules drawn up on the back of fag packets. However, the problem with title stripping is that this is still all true. As far as I can see, there’s nothing that can be done regarding the dual contract rule breaches and the titles that go with it.
However, the Scottish Cups that they won in that same period aren’t under the SPL rules, that’s an SFA competition – one that often retrospectively ejects teams for fielding ineligible players. Funny how no one seems to bring that point up much. Someone should ask Sandy Bryson about that.
The notion that this is trying to beat Rangers off the park where we couldn’t beat them on the park is ridiculous. Everything that happens in football – everything on and off the park – is geared to ensuring success on the park. That’s the point. You can’t separate the two, just as you can’t separate club and company in football – they are absolutely necessarily the same thing. The business off the park is done to get the best possible product on the park, that’s why Rangers used EBTs in the first place and why we’ll all argue about the upcoming Celtic AGM.
Similarly, the rules written off the park exist to ensure everything on the park is by the book. In fact, we had this same argument with Legia Warsaw last season. Football exists on and off the park, and it’s all part of the one mechanism that cannot be split at your convenience.
And this is where the second problem I have lies. I’m not actually sure there’s anything in the rules that says you can’t overspend beyond your means – even if you rip off the taxman to do it. Rangers weren’t the only club who overspent for success. Technically, Celtic did it for a while before bringing it under control ourselves. But then that’s just using acceptable means like loans and overdrafts – something we all do in life ourselves from time to time, right?
That to me is the fundamental difference. There are legitimate ways to overspend and illegitimate ways. If you can spend and then pay your bills, loans and overdrafts, then it’s legitimate.
We know some went further than that. Hearts won a couple of Scottish Cups with money they eventually didn’t pay as the creditors had to take pennies in the pound after administration. Livingston won a League Cup in 2004 while in administration. They may have released many of the players they couldn’t afford by the time the final came around, but would they have reached that final without them? We’ll never know – and that’s those unknowns that have me firmly in the asterisk camp rather than the strip and reassign camp.
Another reason would be the 2003 Scottish Cup. Rangers won it, but the team they beat to do it was Dundee who themselves fell into administration later that same year. Two teams who used illegitimate means to fund their way to success or near success. If you’re redistributing that trophy, who gets it? A losing semi-finalist? Rangers beat Motherwell, Dunfermline Athletic, Ayr United and Arbroath on the way to that final – who knows whether any of them could have won the cup.
Although administration isn’t a stranger to a few of them either. Motherwell and Dunfermline have both suffered that since 2003. How far back would you have to go to ensure anything they won was done fairly? I’m sure Jock Stein’s 1961 cup win with Dunfermline would be fine, as would Motherwell’s win twenty years later, but it could be argued that it was cumulative and good luck finding that line.
Although with Rangers that aspect is much easier. When did you start dodging the taxman? There’s your line. Don’t forget the Wee Tax Case though!
The governing bodies in recent years have tried to implement rules for ‘financial fair play’ which is supposed to be something along those lines, but the rules are inevitably watered down to the point of being almost useless. The sad fact is the rules are too little too late – the genie is out of the bottle and teams habitually overspend now. The punishments they receive for them of points deductions and even fines are somewhere between lenient and ridiculous, but none of them address the historical successes they may have had. That would make many wonder if it’s worth long term pain for short term success.
Such thinking gets you a knighthood in some circles.
To be fair, in Scotland we seem to have learned the lesson for the most part. The spending, lead by David Murray at Rangers and followed by many others trying to keep up, has been brought under control. The top flight especially is quite healthy now, although this all comes after a lot of clubs going through administration – and several others being consigned to the history books as well of course.
It’s not perfect, and there is one ‘sporting heir’ of a club in Glasgow who insist on continuing the unapologetic financial basket-case attitudes of their predecessor, but it’s certainly not armageddon. But what it is, is fixing a problem that was at least a quarter of a century in the making. Sadly that length of time results in far too many people thinking that crazy spending is all right and normal behaviour.
Better people than me will have thoughts on what rules could be used here, but with the thinking I’ve just mentioned prevalent in our governing bodies and in the mainstream media, coupled with a lack of well written rules, I will be very surprised if anything is done.
But ultimately, the Lord Nimmo Smith guilty verdict – and it was a guilty verdict regardless of what the fag packet rules allow retrospectively – now coupled with the assumption that the ruling in HMRC’s favour stands, means one thing.
We all know that asterisk is there, whether it’s official or not.
Krys (Twitter @krys1888)
Focus focus focus
We should focus on building bridges with Dons fans and other clubs who have an interest
If we are all united they cannot call this an “Old Firm” thing
I like what Carlton Cole had to say for himself today.Will be interesting to see him play.No great rush though.
Fully fit please.
Act of war.
Prayers said for your sister in law.
Prayers also said for the donor, and family.
That they take comfort from the fact that they are giving extended life to another.
GOD bless all who are involved.
So all the bampots are anti protestant, anti establishment blah blah.
The writing of a gutter snipe.
Beyond embarrassment.
The flawed logic implies that the contributions on the SFM site
from supporters out with Celtic , are a figment of my imagination.
Or do the thoughts and concerns about football governance not count if you support a “diddy team” ?
Propaganda . Operation save the titles in full swing. It stinks.
Art of War on 18th November 2015 12:53 pm
Thoughts are with your sister in law for a successful outcome.
Strength to her and all her family.
NOWA
Ach did it myself.
To Nil By Mouth See their Web page.
I am appalled that the Daily Record have allowed an article to be published by a guest blogger that suggests supporters of other clubs seeking transparency and accountability from the Scottish National Football Association are driven by sectarianism/ hatred of The Rangers Football Club.
The DR appear to be hiding behind the excuse that the views expressed are not the DR’S and so they can wash their hands of any responsibility for turning a matter of good governance into a sectarian issue that will inflame rather than enlighten and inform society.
I believe that this policy of the DR should be raised with them in public to remind them sectarianism and anything that promotes it or uses it to pursue a narrow agenda is simply not acceptable to organisations like yourself.
You may wish to forward to other like organisations, the Churches and Government.
Anyone know how many devices can be used with a Spotify account?Ta
Auldheid -good reply,something Roy Greenslade might be interested in possibly? HH
Bada
Mini and I use the same account
Both can listen at same time to their own music if one of the devices is in airplane mode
Other than that I need to listen to 5sos or 1d. O((
sitonfence says:
November 18, 2015 at 11:58 am
I have just been informed, by a very reliable source, that Mr Stevens is doing his best to keep a low profile now that his ‘State Aid’ allegations against CFC have been dismissed as wishful thinking on his part. Questions about his credibility are sure to follow.
Mr Stevens seems to have fallen of Twitter. Odd that
Off, not of.
I blame Kafflick typing skools so I do
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TD67
Cheers for Hail Hail item
The only thing to be taken from LNS with regard to the future is that
a) it was compromised.
b) the basis on which he ruled that all ebts were unlawful (even though even then some were not) no longer stands.
So it’s back to the drawing board to find RFC were really guilty of and bringing the game into total disrepute is in the rule book.
How they did that and what that revelation suggests is appropriate action, will follow.
Just as a failure to specify the number of ways a murder could be done does not allow an inventive murderer to walk away, so too can the lack of specificity not be an excuse not to apply the consequences of the murder.