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Strict liability

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Strict liability: if football fans misbehave in a stadium, their club is held liable.

This is the Uefa way and is how most European national associations conduct their business.  Not in Scotland.  In Scotland there is a belief that some problems are so entrenched, it would be unfair to penalise clubs, who do whatever they can to discourage fans from, for example, setting off flares.  Here, a club which does everything it can to stop an errant act is not held liable.

It wouldn’t be an exaggeration to say some clubs fear strict liability.  Celtic cannot stop people setting off flares, they take steps to discourage it, so, the argument goes, why fine or otherwise punish Celtic?

It’s a cop out.  I’d hate to see points deducted, leagues decided, because a club was proxy for a strict liability offender, but everything else is on the table.  Clubs are poor at policing their own, there are in-built inhibitors which make doing so difficult.  Strict liability takes the issue out of their hands.  Stands will be shut, ticket allocations withdrawn, but almost certainly only once.

Flare carriers are the most difficult to police as they are the act of a small number of individuals, who are able to protect themselves [although not their club]by hiding in a crowd, but strict liability would end offensive chanting by thousands overnight.

For that, it’s worth it.

Only caught last night’s Motherwell game in highlights.  Newco looked like the Rangers I remember from the early 80s.  Despite being a mid-table mediocre outfit, Rangers were, and played like, a big team back then.  They attacked with all they had, but John Greig was often out-thought by the manager of a small club, who could organise a defence and break with purpose.

Football tactic students will be captivated by the second leg.  Do Newco go on the attack, and risk the same outcome, or do they learn to live within their limitations, hoping to tempt Motherwell beyond theirs?  The team which gets it wrong could lose by three goals.  It’s a good job Newco didn’t screw around with the ticket allocation, they’ll need that away end packed and energetic.

Thanks for all the feedback on the new issue of CQN Magazine, lots of great reading.

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  1. Once again, regardless of how well intentioned any legislation is its down to the way it’s policed.

     

     

    It just gives the likes of Police Scotland and the SFA a bigger stick to beat us with.

  2. Oh Dear yon windaelickin zombie orc who was engaging in the old favourite Peekaboo through the ipox bevelled glass made many night lol.

     

    Just about peed make pants when the camera panned in and caught his face pressed up against the glass lol !

     

    Made him look even uglier than yer usual sevco zombie knuckledragger .

     

    Shame innit ;)

  3. thomthethim for Oscar OK on

    *Subday was a typo, but it seems to fit in with the excellent name given to the event ; Submarine Sunday……….going down.

  4. Motherwell unbeaten at home in 7 games scoring 18 times, and that’s against teams as good as or better than Sevco. The notion they will collapse and lose their 2 goal advantage is not one I go along with.

     

     

    For anyone who does think it will happen, perhaps aided by mibbery, you can have 5/1 Sevco to go up. Stick a score on it and soften the blow by getting a ton towards your season ticket for CP. Then look forward to thumping them 4 times minimum.

     

     

    Not for me though. Well will score twice at least. Deadco score 4 minimum? Nah……not gonna happen.

  5. Scottish football ‘needs tougher sanctions for sectarianism’

     

     

    The Scottish football authorities should come up with tougher ways of dealing with sectarianism, according to a government-commissioned study.

     

     

    The recommendation was one of a series made by the Advisory Group on Tackling Sectarianism.

     

     

    Scottish clubs do not currently operate a policy of “strict liability”, which would see them held responsible for the behaviour of their fans.

     

     

    The report challenged clubs to come up with an alternative.

     

     

    And it said sanctions were “urgently needed”.

     

     

     

     

     

    The final report follows a two year study by the advisory group, which saw it gather evidence, research and opinions from across wide sections of Scottish society.

     

     

    The advisory group has now made a number of recommendations for churches, schools, football clubs, media and government bodies.

     

     

    But it highlighted football in particular as an area where action to tackle the issue was urgently required.

     

     

    Fans misbehaviour

     

     

    The report said: “It is clear that a strategic and measured response to Scotland’s remnants of sectarian attitudes and behaviour cannot succeed without squarely addressing the sectarian problems within and around football.”

     

     

    The group said it was “struck by the reticence about leadership in addressing sectarianism from within Scottish football”.

     

    It said that during meetings with both the football authorities and Celtic and Rangers Football Clubs, it was suggested the system of “strict liability” for fans misbehaviour – which has been in place for a number of years in UEFA competitions – would “be difficult, if not impossible, to introduce in Scotland”.

     

     

    However, the group said: “We feel very strongly that sanctions are urgently needed and remain of the view that their introduction would not simply be a step towards tackling sectarianism, but also an important step towards clubs and their fans taking responsibility for their actions as we all have to do elsewhere in society.”

     

     

    One of the reasons given by clubs and the football authorities for not adopting “strict liability” was the financial impact it could have.

     

     

    The report said: “We were told that one reason that strict liability was unworkable in Scotland was because certain stadia would be closed for months leading to severe financial hardship for particular clubs.

     

     

    “However, that claim also makes the case for action. If elements within Scottish football make it so toxic that it cannot survive the introduction of strict liability, then we need to find ways to address these elements.”

     

     

     

    We have also seen a strong hunger for change across Scotland and a real desire to make sectarianism a thing of the past.Dr Duncan Morrow, Chairman, Advisory Group on Tackling Sectarianism

     

     

    The report said the issue of marches and parades “remains contentious.”

     

     

    It said: “The ultimate responsibility for such events, the behaviour associated with them and those who turn up to spectate lies with those organising the event.”

     

     

    The group said more should be done by march organisers to reassure the general public about the nature of the parades, and issues of public safety and public order.

     

     

    It also said those who organise the events should take more responsibility for the behaviour of so-called “hangers-on”.

     

     

    The report also urged the media to play a role in tackling sectarianism by not “sensationalising” or “stoking the flames of sectarianism” through headlines.

     

     

    It cited the example of the Celtic v Rangers league cup semi-final in February.

     

     

    ‘Stamp out’

     

     

    Chairman of the advisory group, Dr Duncan Morrow said: “Our work over the last two years has explored how sectarianism continues to manifest itself in Scotland today and how it still has the power to impact negatively on people’s lives.

     

     

    “But we have also seen a strong hunger for change across Scotland and a real desire to make sectarianism a thing of the past.

     

     

    “I believe that this desire amounts to a real commitment from Scotland’s communities and a challenge for leaders and institution

     

    institutions to set out a clear and inclusive vision that rejects avoidance and blame.”Community Safety and Legal Affairs Minister Paul Wheelhouse, said: “This Scottish government will continue to do all it can to create a Scotland free from the scourge of sectarianism through a range of approaches.

     

     

    “As a result of the work undertaken by the independent advisory group and our many community based projects we now understand the nature and extent of sectarianism better than ever before.”

     

     

    He added: “The report published today makes it clear that the approach we are taking is the right one.

     

     

    “It also confirms that each and every person in Scotland has a part to play in tackling sectarianism and I would urge everyone in Scotland to consider how they can help stamp out this issue.”

     

     

    ‘Simple choice’

     

     

    Anti-sectarianism charity Nil By Mouth, which has repeatedly called for Scottish football to introduce the “strict liability” policy, welcomed the group’s recommendations.

     

     

    Campaign director Dave Scott said: “Football in particular has to face up to the reality of its responsibilities.

     

     

    “We are pleased that the advisory group has recognised the importance of ‘strict liability’ being introduced into the Scottish game.”

     

     

    He added: “The SFA AGM is to be held next month and we still have time to introduce strict liability for next season if the clubs have the will and courage to act.

     

     

    “The choice for the game is simple: remain part of the problem or be part of the solution.”

     

     

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32929665

     

     

    LB

  6. foghorn leghorn on

    it is impossible for the hunnery to go through on sunday. the tie is over, its finito. it just cant happen.

     

     

     

    FACT

  7. traditionalist88 on

    timaloy29

     

    13:06 on

     

    29 May, 2015

     

    Once again, regardless of how well intentioned any legislation is its down to the way it’s policed.

     

     

    It just gives the likes of Police Scotland and the SFA a bigger stick to beat us with.

     

    ==========

     

     

    Spot on.

     

     

    Every media report has either mentioned us, carried a picture of our fans, or both.

     

     

    You would hope that arresting people for the singing of Irish nationalist songs would highlight the fact they are not sectarian but even that small but crucial detail is overlooked as much as possible in favour of the typical ones as bad as the other approach.

     

     

    HH

  8. Lennon n Mc....Mjallby on

    All this pish about Motherwell bottlin’ it stems from the illusion that Sevco are Glasgow Rangers.

     

     

    They’re not,they’re shite and have no chance.

  9. non dee ploom on

    are This Photo

     

    Close

     

    On a friend’s Timeline

     

     

     

    Andy Burns’s photo.

     

    You chose a specific audience for this post. Only people in that audience will be able to see this when you share it.

     

    CancelShare Photo

  10. BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS on

    LIVIBHOY

     

     

    You too recognise the obvious problem here.

     

     

    I didn’t realise it had got that far. Thanks for letting us know.

  11. lennon n mc….mjallby @ 13:30,

     

     

    Good point, have heard some Sevco supporters making the same point.

     

     

    There was a fear and a feeling of invincibillity about Ibrox for many teams.

     

     

    That’s all gone at Ibix, when Alloa come gunning for you and your fans are chanting “same old Alloa always cheating”

     

     

    You know that Sevco are NOT Rangers. This new Club have got along way to go to be an SPL Club, never mind challenging Aberdeen.

     

     

    Hail Hail

  12. LiviBhoy

     

     

    This is poor management and governance throughout football.

     

     

    There is often talk to bring in rules around diving etc to stamp it out, and singing is another one at the forefront of a lot of talk.

     

     

    comparisons are often made to rugby etc about harsh bans etc and bringing those in as a deterrant, nothing is ever done.

     

     

    If rules were brought in which is easy to do, and clubs and fans knew they were likely to receive a point deduction or an empty stadium.

     

     

    Fans would stop it immediately there is no doubt, you wouldn’t see a flare or here the famine song at a football ground anywhere.

     

     

    There just seems to be very little from the people in charge to bring these types of rules in.

  13. blantyretim is praying for the Knox family on

    Livibhoy

     

    Until they realise irishness isn’t sectarian then we can’t move on

     

    It’s bigotry we need to fight not Irish Catholicism

  14. BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS on

    lennon n mc….mjallby

     

     

    13:30 on 29 May, 2015

     

    All this pish about Motherwell bottlin’ it stems from the illusion that Sevco are Glasgow Rangers.

     

     

    They’re not,they’re shite and have no chance.

     

    ~~~~~~~~~~~++~~~~~~~~~~

     

     

    My concern isnae that the huns urnae the same.

     

     

    More that the referees are

  15. BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS

     

     

    Robert88

     

     

     

    Just sharing the news.

     

     

    LB

  16. Geordie Munro on

    Lennon…n…Mc

     

     

     

    Spot on.

     

     

    Imo the tie isn’t over…yet… but some need to calm it a little and stop the fear taking over.

     

     

    HH

  17. Looks a lot like Che Guevara on

    Enjoying the laugh at Sevcos faltering march through the leagues but still wary of the Mibbery that will come to pass on Sunday. What odds Stephen McManus sent off at Sevco first corner of the match for getting on the end of one of Elbows Elbows reacting and giving away a penalty?

  18. Lennon n Mc....Mjallby on

    Chairbhoy

     

     

    I’ll be diplomatic.

     

     

    If you finish 3rd in a league you’re going nowhere.

     

     

    Simples.

  19. non dee ploom on

    are This Photo

     

    Close

     

    On a friend’s Timeline

     

     

     

    Andy Burns’s photo.

     

    You chose a specific audience for this post. Only people in that audience will be able to see this when you share it.

     

    CancelShare Photo

     

     

     

    Please ignore this , I was trying to share an old pic if Abdul Salim from Alan Brek’s book of scottish football 1937 but made a mess of it, back to the drawing board Hail Hail :>).

  20. blantyretim is praying for the Knox family

     

     

    Agree. Be interesting how this plays out.

     

     

    LB

  21. Geordie Munro on

    “More that the referees are”

     

     

    Bobby,

     

     

    The ol broken clock is kicking some ass on here.

     

     

    It’s miles out in front now ;)

     

     

    HH

  22. Lennon n Mc....Mjallby on

    Bobby Murdoch’s

     

     

    I hear you pal but the Mothers ain’t Hibs,that was an easy win in an unforgiving environment,the officials were out the equation,watch Motherwell go n score early n serve them their mince n tatties.

  23. Have they named the referee for Sunday at Fir Park?

     

     

    I actually thought McManus scoring a goal covered up that he had a bit of a nightmare last night..

  24. You gotta assume that if the Well can score 3 times at the cemetery ground, and it should have been more, they can add to their tally on their home ground.

  25. Burgas Hoops on

    The games over Murderwell will stay in the top flight and the hun will continue on the ‘Journey’.

     

     

    I didn’t see the game but i’ve watched the highlights and the away team looked in control, pace was the key and the hun aint got none.

     

     

    i’ll be putting the hoose and 20 outboard motors on McDonald scoring at Fir Park.

  26. Lennon18

     

     

    Agree with that..was pretty poor.

     

     

    Hopefully they can keep it tight on sunday and give nothing away.

  27. This report on ‘Strict Liability’, welcomed by the Scottish Government – could it be the second arm, in conjunction with the OB act, of a pincer movement to handicap Celtic?

     

     

    Do NOT underestimate the SNP.

     

     

    The SNP’s move to the shared campus model, is another example of their ‘sleekit’ incremental moves to do away with Catholic education on the basis of cost, in Scotland.

     

     

    Do not underestimate the SNP.

     

     

    These Nationalists are the enemy of our ‘kind’, but their ‘nae brain’ defenders on here, and within our community, bury their heads in the sand and think they are punishing the Ibrox mob – we are 16/17% and we are blindly backing ourselves into a corner of the most bigoted part of the UK mainland.

     

     

    A one-issue party, with form against us, in a one-party bigoted state, is the last place we should be voting for – for God’s sake waken-up.

  28. The Battered Bunnet on

    I support strict liability in principle, but have a concern that the legacy attitudes prevalent in football – and Scottish society more widely – will be divisive, undermining the very reason it is being suggested.

     

     

    In a modern society, equality and diversity are bedrocks, and discrimination on the basis of gender, sexuality, ethnicity, beliefs etc (the protected human characteristics) undermines social cohesion. It’s consequently unlawful.

     

     

    Celebrating one’s identity is a right.

     

     

    Discriminating against another’s identity is a wrong.

     

     

    Society increasingly abhors offences motivated in part by the colour of the victim’s skin or presumed sexuality, their disability or ethnicity.

     

     

    We encourage Gay Pride, we’re Positive About Disability, whether Gael or Pakistani, Pole or Chinese, welcome to One Scotland, many cultures. Sing us your songs. Cook for us. Tell us your story.

     

     

    But we’ve also got legacy attitudes held by the vestigial dinosaurs of the land. We really don’t like that Catholicy/Irishy thing. It makes us feel awkward. It’s somehow subversive. It’s ‘sectarian’ you know. That’s it; sectarian.

     

     

    You wear a crucifix and get spat upon, what did you expect? You sing about “The Boys of the Old Brigade” you’re promoting terrorism! You get beaten up wearing a Celtic top, you brought it on yourself! Just like the rape victim in the mini skirt.

     

     

    Celebrating all cultures is encouraged, unless it’s Irish culture, in which case it’s the other side of the sectarian coin. And one side’s as bad as the other, isn’t it.

     

     

    Still today in Scotland, being positive about the Pope equates wholly with and is the ‘sectarian’ reflection of the “FTP brigade”.

     

     

    Strict Liability in football will only serve to benefit our society, when our attitudes towards Irish identity are congruous with the principles of Equality. The worry is that the application of strict liability will serve only to reinforce the old, vestigial attitudes.

     

     

    Rather than progress, we will regress.

     

     

    In summary: I have no confidence that those likely to be responsible for applying strict liability are sufficiently educated, informed and disinterested to do so impartially.

     

     

    TBB

     

     

    PS Check out Ebay shortly. For Sale: One Soap Box, hardly used…

  29. kevinlasvegas on

    Lennon n Mc….Mjallby

     

     

    On the money.

     

     

    Sevco are not rangers.

     

     

    KLV

  30. Should ‘Well; prevail, will PL be invited to the emergency meeting in Hampden big Hoose.

     

    ?

  31. The Johnatron on

    So here’s a thing….

     

     

    Many players* for Sevco Zombie International FC have “end of contract date” listed as 31/05/15. Does this mean they can play on 31st (Sunday) or are they out of contract on that date? Wouldn’t it be a wonderful scenario if the players* that Stuart Chegwin is referring to as missing the game is actually a whole host of players* because they’re out of contract!

     

     

    * in the very loosest sense of the word (is loosest even a word?)

  32. saltires en sevilla on

    It’s only half time

     

     

    Up 3-1 with home advantage

     

     

    I’d take that against most teams, but especially the leaden-footed orcs from last night.

     

     

    A sending off and a penalty to assist will not be enough

     

     

    Skippy to seal it with a 28 yd shot in last 2 mins

  33. The Johnatron

     

    14:12 on

     

    29 May, 2015

     

    So here’s a thing….

     

     

    Many players* for Sevco Zombie International FC have “end of contract date” listed as 31/05/15. Does this mean they can play on 31st (Sunday) or are they out of contract on that date? Wouldn’t it be a wonderful scenario if the players* that Stuart Chegwin is referring to as missing the game is actually a whole host of players* because they’re out of contract!

     

     

    * in the very loosest sense of the word (is loosest even a word?)

     

    ———————————————————————————————

     

    “Stuart Chegwin” – belter! :-)

     

     

    #CheggersDrinksPopCSC

  34. In the 3 years preceding the introduction of the OBaF Act on March 1st 2012, the figures for religiously aggravated offences (existing Section 74 offences) incidents at football stadia accounted for 12.9%, 7.6% and 3.9% of all charges.

     

     

    Legislation and policing has targetted football and football fans for Scotlan’ds real shame.

     

     

    If there is anyone with the power to really tackle sectarianism in this country then they need to root it out at the source.

     

     

    I’d start with the Orange Order personally.

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