Strict liability: if football fans misbehave in a stadium, their club is held liable.
This is the Uefa way and is how most European national associations conduct their business. Not in Scotland. In Scotland there is a belief that some problems are so entrenched, it would be unfair to penalise clubs, who do whatever they can to discourage fans from, for example, setting off flares. Here, a club which does everything it can to stop an errant act is not held liable.
It wouldn’t be an exaggeration to say some clubs fear strict liability. Celtic cannot stop people setting off flares, they take steps to discourage it, so, the argument goes, why fine or otherwise punish Celtic?
It’s a cop out. I’d hate to see points deducted, leagues decided, because a club was proxy for a strict liability offender, but everything else is on the table. Clubs are poor at policing their own, there are in-built inhibitors which make doing so difficult. Strict liability takes the issue out of their hands. Stands will be shut, ticket allocations withdrawn, but almost certainly only once.
Flare carriers are the most difficult to police as they are the act of a small number of individuals, who are able to protect themselves [although not their club]by hiding in a crowd, but strict liability would end offensive chanting by thousands overnight.
For that, it’s worth it.
Only caught last night’s Motherwell game in highlights. Newco looked like the Rangers I remember from the early 80s. Despite being a mid-table mediocre outfit, Rangers were, and played like, a big team back then. They attacked with all they had, but John Greig was often out-thought by the manager of a small club, who could organise a defence and break with purpose.
Football tactic students will be captivated by the second leg. Do Newco go on the attack, and risk the same outcome, or do they learn to live within their limitations, hoping to tempt Motherwell beyond theirs? The team which gets it wrong could lose by three goals. It’s a good job Newco didn’t screw around with the ticket allocation, they’ll need that away end packed and energetic.
Thanks for all the feedback on the new issue of CQN Magazine, lots of great reading.
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Mike in Toronto
hi there mate,enjoyed your post the other night when talking of how the smell of peat reminds you of Donegal,it made me smile.If i may ask Mike which part did your Dad hail from? if you are ever going to Donegal and are wanting to do a dive contact this long established club
http://diving.ie/news/regional-news/sheephaven-sub-aqua-club/
and i am sure they will get you out and about.I made good contacts with the counties tourist board last year when they used some pics of mine,so if there is anything outdoorsy just shout :-)
hope all is well with you and your good lady.
hail hail
Captain Beefheart
That’s the point
They are not sectarian
Anyway pub time
Hail hail
Geordie Munro
Seems I am in a single signal black hole :o)
the introduction of strict liability in Scottish football would be a disaster.
sectarianism would be defined in such a way that it would never be policed impartially. anti-Irish/ catholic sentiment resonates with the indigenous population, the overwhelming majority, and that would pollute strict liability’s implementation into practice. like it or not the institutional club SEVCO (shared world view as administrators) would not be punished while the clubs (with different world view) would.
As is the case with most societies the indigenous majority population are not very keen on the minority immigrant population. Presentment (our Irish ancestors offering cheaper labour etc…) is passed down from one generation to the next and in many circles its acceptable to be derogatory towards said group. I know its hard to believe but there is a hatred/ dislike/ mistrust of any expression of Irish Catholics or Irish republicanism.
The majority population just want us all to get along and in my experience what that means in practice is: forget your past, your a scot or a plastics paddy whereas I am a scot of Irish heritage and proud. Oh and if you happen to cross the line i.e. celebrating your Irish history your a trouble maker. there is the other group who are happy for you to celebrate your history just not in public. Well unless its in a pub on paddy’s day, acting silly cause that Irishness as they know it!!!
so in summery the wearing of the green is offensive to some, singing Irish folk songs offensive to others, wearing of the green and singing Irish folk song at a football ground or in public is very offensive to others.
20,000 + singing the billy boys at semi finals earlier this season, only one person charged under the OBFG Act, and the police praised the fans, enough said!!!
HH
Just wondering what the voting farce in Zurich is costing. And who is getting what out of it.
Ziet Sport (Deutschland) have given the reasons why Sepp Blatter deserves their support:
http://www.zeit.de/sport/2015-05/sepp-blatter-all-reasons
(There’s 2 pages btw)
Stephbhoy…Regarding your last paragraph, wouldnt Strict Liability put a stop to that?
quonno.
Blazers from 200 plus countries get to stay in a 5 star hotel in Switzerland whilst racking up expenses paid for by their Associations from money given to them by FIFA.
BGX
answer your phone.
Currently at countries beginning with a G.
South Of Tunis
It’s “LIVE’ on one of the digi-turk channels -)))
Fav Uncle…my Phones ok..I Think…EMAIL me if it Aint Working Boss..
South Of Tunis
16:44 on
29 May, 2015
quonno.
Blazers from 200 plus countries get to stay in a 5 star hotel in Switzerland whilst racking up expenses paid for by their Associations from money given to them by FIFA.
Parasites to a man and woman.
And result will probably show that uncle sepp has been keeping them happy.
With hints that all was not kosher in the awards process there has been much talk of Qatar and Russia getting to host next two World Cups.
Wonder just how much failed bidders such as, say England lobbed out in gifts, hospitality etc.
burgas hoops.
Live on Libyan tele . – – it will be Libya ‘ s turn to vote within the next 15 mins.Inshalla !
quonno
Parasites and clients .You scratch our backs we’ll scratch yours.
South Of Tunis
TWO voting booths for over 200 delegates -))))
Big Nan
We all need to sing off the same song sheet – as long as it’s not deemed offensive :o)
It’s balancing act really, to combine consensus with preserving what we all each see as imperative.
Some common core statements need to be signed up to and then we can all mobilise towards the real enemy.
We are all just one big Huddle.
HH
An Tearmann
How you doing? thanks for your note.
Because of family stuff, dad sort of lost contact with part of his family, so I haven’t been back there since I was a kid, and my recollection of some of the village names is not great.
Dad’s (and mum) were born in Paisley, but his extended family were just outside of Donegal Town, I believe, and for some reason, I think some were near Milford. Since dad passed, I have been meaning to ask his sister about the family history. She married into the Gallaghers from that area too (and they are the ones I remember a bit better) and she stills spends her holidays over there.
I still have a picture on the mantle at home of my great uncle Gerry, with my brother and I (we’d have been around 3 or 4 at the time) sitting on Toby the donkey. And I remember Gerry’s boys bombing about the Donegal countryside on a motorbike that look like it was held together with coathangers! Thought they were the coolest kids ever!
Part of me is almost afraid to go back, as I have the nicest memories (even if not 100% accurate)… and I’m afraid to lose them.
It is like my memories of playing football as a kid with my mum’s brother in the front hallway at our place in Paisley …. I remember running for ages in this great big room (the size of Hampden in my memory, if not bigger! …) …. going back to that house as an adult, I realized that ‘great big room’ was about 6 feet by 4 feet!
Thanks for the link to the diving club …. one cheeky bugger on here (cant remember which one it was initially) suggested another diving club (you can probably guess which one) …. the things that popped up on my google search after typing in the name of that diving club! Shocking!! :)
I better get back to work … I’m just back in from court, and need to grab something to eat before my next client comes in.
Cheers,
MiT
90 % Voted Yes to Israel remaining a member of FIFA .Mr Blatter was very effusive re expressing his happiness at the outcome..Football not politics
sorry, I haven’t read back…. probably a bit early for any news from the court case today? fingers crossed for the lad.
What I read, according to Hashimid tradition Prince Bin al Hussain is in 43rd generation descendant from Mahomet. On the other hand Sepp Blatter is in straight line descendant from Adam and Eve. Who they make FIFA General Secretary?
SoT-i think delegates get €600 cash every day of their stay.
Hopefully Blatter will get splattered .. Well done South America ..
South Of Tunis
17:04 on
29 May, 2015
90 % Voted Yes to Israel remaining a member of FIFA .Mr Blatter was very effusive re expressing his happiness at the outcome..Football not politics.
_________________________
Was it a secret ballot?
I’m sure you know where i’m coming from asking that :)
Not following any FIFA non transparent vote thing.
Bladder has not resigned because he thinks he has only to hold out for todays(?) vote to remain in power.
The noises from other delegates are that he has enough votes in the bag to do it.
In the light of twin corruption probes, you’d have to question the wisdom of any delegate who considers that any previous largesse received Bladder obligates them to vote for him. It’s called corruption and not just how things work.
Vote for him and then wait for that early morning knock.
Bladder yer Ogilvie
burgas hoops @ 17 11 .
Yes – a secret ballot.
Getting confused here .Libyan tele stating that Palestine dropped its Suspend Israel motion in favour of a FIFA promise to sort out the differences between Palestine and Israel.- 90% of the delegates voted Yes to that.
Paul67
Typical Celtic fans view , who only seen the highlights of last nights play off game.
Watching live as it unfolded, I’m much less pessimistic of the outcome over two legs, and provided the always present mibbery doesn’t feature I’m pretty confident the Celtic support will enjoy another year of newco remaining where they belong.
Well done Motherwell, and the delightful irony is that if the mullet had stayed where he was manager, Sevco would already be into the SPL.
Kevin Bridges in Jersey tonight .
Looking forward to a good Tim doin his stuff :)
HH
bgx not a chance in hell that strict liability would stop their vile songs, it would not be reported and / or pursued. however, Irish folk would be deemed sectarian and we would be pursued, justice and Scottish football does not coexist
hh
Stephbhoy…Your minds already made up on something not even in place yet..Ok..
New shocking statistics released by the Scottish government last week have revealed what many knew to be the case: namely that if you are a Catholic living in Scotland in the 21st century you are more likely to be the victim of a hate crime than if you are a member of any other ethnic or religious minority.
Comprising 16 percent of the Scottish population, Catholics were victims in 58 percent of the 693 criminal offences aggravated by religious prejudice in 2010/11, the highest recorded number in four years. Protestants were victims in 37 percent of cases, while crimes related to Judaism comprised 2.3 percent and Islam 2.1 percent.
It should also come as little surprise that 51 percent of hate crimes in Scotland occurred within the Glasgow area, given the relative social weight of the Scottish Catholic community in the west of Scotland. Moreover, the fact that only a third of the charges were directly related to football refutes the notion that this is an issue that can be confined within the narrow parameters of Glasgow’s Old Firm, Celtic and Rangers FC.
Overall, the only conclusion to be drawn from these statistics is that attempts to paint this issue as one of equivalence can longer be sustained on any objective level. On the contrary, they prove that, culturally, anti Irish Catholic racism and bigotry remains entrenched within a significant section of Scottish society, and that until the nature of the issue is recognised and confronted no amount of legislation will deliver a just solution.
Last season’s sectarian hate campaign endured by Celtic manager Neil Lennon, the intended victim of mail bombs along with other prominent figures associated with the club and a Glasgow-based Irish cultural organisation, shamed the country around the world. The shame was compounded by the acquittal earlier this year of a supporter of Edinburgh club Heart of Midlothian FC who towards the end of last season ran onto the pitch and assaulted Neil Lennon in front of 16,000 fans in the stadium and tens of thousands more watching live on television.
In addition, leading members of the Catholic clergy in Scotland have been on the receiving end of hate mail and bullets sent in the post, while as recently as last weekend Celtic player and Republic of Ireland international Anthony Stokes was forced to move out of his West Lothian home after the windows were smashed by a gang of youths while his partner, pregnant with child, was inside.
The current attempt by the authorities and political establishment in Scotland to criminalise Celtic fans for singing Irish rebels songs at games, songs that are political in orientation, is rightly being resisted by Celtic supporters clubs. Celtic’s Irish heritage cannot be separated from the freedom struggle that brought the country into existence, and Irish republicanism in its modern incarnation is an avowedly non sectarian political creed and doctrine. Football and politics are intertwined around the world and in Scotland especially, given that Celtic were formed in 1888 to raise funds to feed an Irish immigrant population living in conditions of extreme poverty and destitution in the west of the country, where its assimilation into mainstream society was blocked. The association of Rangers FC with anti-Irish racism and religious bigotry came as a reaction to its rival’s role in raising and representing the aspirations and hopes of those immigrants.
George Galloway is currently promoting his book, Open Season, on the hate campaign suffered by Neil Lennon. Though Lennon’s plight is explored in some detail, this is by no means a book on football. On the contrary it charts the social and political history of the issue back to the mid 19th century, when Irish immigrants began to arrive in Scotland in significant numbers. I researched most of the historical data contained in the pages of the book and despite having read widely on the issue over a number of years was genuinely shocked at how deep and virulent this strain of racism ran in Scottish society – and at all levels. The book also provides an historical analysis of Irish republicanism beginning with its founder, Wolfe Tone, a southern Irish protestant, in the late 18th century
The history of the struggle against racism and religious bigotry around the world throws up the irrefutable truth that it must be confronted if it is to be defeated. For too long in Scotland when it comes to anti-Irish racism and Catholic bigotry it has been swept under the proverbial carpet by the authorities and political establishment. It continues to be so with the Scottish government’s new anti-sectarian legislation, which rather than identify the source of the problem attempts to obfuscate it by placing the victim on an equal moral and legal footing with the perpetrator.
Without the necessary political will to confront racism and bigotry, it can only thrive. This is the only conclusion to be drawn from the Scottish government’s own statistics on hate crimes in Scotland. They demand nothing short of a complete rethink of the way ahead.
stephbhoy @ 16:32,
Got to disagree with that, the premise that Irish Catholics coming in to take indigenous Scottish Protestants jobs caused the bigotry is a nonsense.
During the industrial revolution and afterwards Central Scotland needed labour from wherever.
Highland Protestants, Catholics from the Isles, Ulster Protestants and Irish Catholics.
Many working on the mines. Some of my ancestors were from Cornish tin mining. These people Working at multiple levels in many industries.
The Catholic bigotry comes from anti-Popery from the Middle Ages. In most Western Societies and Cultures, this has gone, been minimised or is underground. And anti Gael movement when “London” tried to ethnically cleanse The peoples of the Britilsh Isles into the mythical “Anglo Saxon”.
Of course it was mainly the Irish although also many Scots who clung on the their Gaelic and Catholic identities. We are indigenous, there is a crannog in Drumpellier Loch.
They never built that.
Hail Hail
having a quiet lager for mick mcmanus’ goal yesterday -may there be more on sunday
Bhoys and ghirls once again thank you for all your prayers and good wishes for my son Sean and my family regarding his court case and charges under the OB Act
Sean was found Not Guilty this afternoon. So thank you so much.
HH
KTF
Utlr
Fantastic news mate .
Hail Hail Sean.
stephbhoy…
The laws an ass, in one hand young blokes from all teams can be lifted for supposed sectarian chants, yet in this day and age orange walks are allowed to poison our streets at a huge cost to taxpayers.
It was said earlier about the anti Catholic attitude. Of which I agree…why then allow walks that celebrate a battle in another country?
If the Orange walk is not sectarian…wtf is it?
Can I also say that hamiltontim , minx1888 and Janette Findlay thank you for everything since 1st March 2014. You have stood by my son and family and helped in so many ways. You are what makes the fans the real Celtic family.
HH
KTF
Utlr