Celtic’s valiant capitulation last night had a familiar feel to it. We took the game to Milan, bossed them in many areas while the tie was still close enough to be called a contest, created chances but had no cutting edge and lost heavily, at home, to what is clearly the weakest of four Milan teams we have faced in the last decade. It was a similar story when Juventus came to Glasgow last season.
Am I the only one who thought it was familiar from stirring European nights of the 80s? Take on one of the most experience teams in Europe with two out-and-out wingers, inspire for a time but only earn a lesson in how unforgiving the game can be at the top level. Or at least, hope we learned a lesson.
We loved it in the 80s, of course, but it was like going to school when Martin O’Neill arrived and taught us how to win in Europe. Despite the defeat, the 10 men got it right at home to Barca, and in the home win over Ajax, where we allowed the visitors the majority of possession and territory, but with four minutes on the clock and Celtic playing well last night, I noted the game was “worryingly open”.
In Europe, an open game means defeat. We don’t have the midfield or attack to win playing adventurously. When setup properly, we can defend as well as anyone in Europe, this is our irrefutable strength, play to it.
Paul McConville
The first thing I did when I met Paul McConville at the Columba Club on Friday was dig him up for not being in touch recently. This gave him an opportunity to wax enthusiastically about the consuming joy of being back on the tools as a solicitor in Glasgow. He was a man who had arrived exactly where he wanted to be in life.
He was so full of drive, clarity of vision and purpose that it was with utter disbelieve I heard the news of his sudden passing yesterday.
As anyone who read Random Thoughts Re Scots Law knew, he loved his family. He also loved practicing law and held Albion Rovers in high affection. He was not, as has been suggested, part of the Celtic family. Had the snake oil salesmen turned up at Celtic Park they would have endured the same forensic analysis from Paul as he applied elsewhere, but he was an important friend and resource to our community, and ultimately our club, during an historically important time.
To most of us he was a unique blogger. Cheerful, incisive and unrelenting. He charted the story of Rangers insolvency, administration and liquidation, then picked up the even more complicated events surrounding the phoenix.
When asked on Friday why he had been less industrious recently, specifically covering the leaks from Charlotte Fakes, he conceded he just didn’t have the time anymore; he was back litigating and loving it.
The personal cost of his blogging was often all too clear, he was out there, but Paul managed to retain his determination not to be browbeaten, while enduring the numptites with more good grace and humour than most of us could muster. Before taking up his new role in Glasgow he worked a few minutes walk from me. We collaborated on a number of matters in recent years and marked one auspicious afternoon last year by sharing a bottle of Champagne; a genuinely treasured memory.
The fragility of it all is breathtaking. Our condolences to the McConville family. May he rest in peace.
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PJBhoynyc and west wales celt
Brilliant stuff.
HH
fritzsong
08:33 on
28 November, 2013
Celtic can’t afford to pay the living wage? Seems strange to me. Can we see the figures, please?
What other organisations have you investigated?
Or is your concern for the ” living wage” exclusively related to Celtic?
Well said on paul mcconville; i was at the event last friday and its a shock to hear a few days later of his passing. RIP Paul.
Got a reply from the Dutch embassy
Thank you for your message. Our Deputy Head of Mission Margriet Leemhuis met with a group of Celtic fans on Friday 15 November during a peaceful demonstration outside our Embassy. She listened carefully to their concerns and reported these both to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and to the Public Prosecution Service in Amsterdam. She also sent a personal reply to a letter presented to her by a representative of Celtic fans during the protest.
The Embassy is not in a position to further influence or comment on legal cases. For consular enquiries involving British nationals in the Netherlands, the British Embassy in The Hague should be your first port of call.
Don’t remember hearing of any meetings or letters being received from the embassy ? Anyone else hear about this ?
Bobby Sands image in a football ground is not allowed but Che Guevara is allowed – please explain UEFA as I see Che’s image in most European stadiums – one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter !aaa
kitalba @ 8.19
Enough of the common sense bud….hope you are well. I’m about to repost an effort from my good friend Raymac in a minute which you might enjoy if you missed it earlier.
Raymac has some fascinating stories to tell, educational and borne from ” front line” experience. To try and defeat him in a debate is akin to taking Jinky on in a dribbling contest.
Both you and he remain 2 of the most erudite men for whom meeting up with would remain high on my bucket list.
Goodness sake!
Bob Kelly would have thrown them out so hard they wouldn’t have landed until Glasgow Cross!!!!!
raymac
23:49 on 27 November, 2013
William Wallace once set fire to a barn with a couple of hundred English soldiers and others in it.He was brutal and ruthless and he had to be.Bobby Sands joined an organisation that was non-existent in 1969.The non existence of the IRA (bar a few men with few guns who could not defend their homes and areas)gave rise to the PIRA.
What followed was war.Make no mistake about that.It wasn’t the euphemistic “Troubles” that everyone hears about.
There were dirty obnoxious things done by both sides. That’s what happens in wars.
I knew personally a lot of men that people sing about.Joe McDonnell was married to my niece.
Bobby Sands,Joe McDonnell, Big Doc were straight,honest,trustworthy and above all faithful.Were they terrorists?
Was Willie Wallace a terrorist?
Auldheid is right in one respect.
The GB are a bunch of wee boys trying to be political, but without the brains to do it properly.
Peter Lawell,on the other hand,does have a brain. He understands finance, so he should start counting up how much EBTs and “honest mistakes” have cost Celtic. He will find that to be a lot more than the GB will.
His time would be better spent pulling up the MSM for blatantly biased reporting and removing them from the environs of Celtic Park.
Being nice does not work with these people.
Being nicer and more proactive in the defence of Celtic and the supporters would be a better idea.
As regards EUFA–this is an organisation that has a bigot ex-referee working for it.
I’ve watched football matches where your life would be in danger and not a word from them.
Yet a stupid banner has them raising questions.
Know why?
Celtic, or rather the people who run Celtic, are a soft touch.
Just ask Dermot Desmond and Peter Lawell and Ian Bankier.
BRTH
I look forward to Mr. Salmon’s forensic dissection of the financial shenanigans of Charlotte 18
Was it not the coop bank that stepped in to bolster Fergus when he became involved ?
HH
PS…uefamight find no case to answer.
That’s not the point!
GavinMastertonandtheriddleof Charlotte18
September 17th, 2013 (updated with minor edits September 24th, 2013)
Charlotte Eighteen, a shadowy company based in the tax secrecy jurisdiction of the British Virgin Islands, remains the subject of intense interest among Scottish football fans. Allegedly the holding company for the business assets of Gavin Masterton, the former treasurer and managing director of the Bank of Scotland, it looks like it could be the crux to an extraordinary financial scandal at the heart of Scottish football.
As part of a tangled web of troubled and failed business ventures, Charlotte Eighteen appears to be one of several holding companies which sat above Masterton’s now largely crumbled post-Bank of Scotland business empire. Others are Charlestown Holdings Limited and East End Park Limited.
Andrew Picken, former Scottish Political Editor of the Mail on Sunday, published a string of articles in February and March this year at a time when one of Masterton’s assets, Dunfermline Athletic Football Club, was on the verge of bankruptcy. In these, Picken highlighted Masterton’s financial difficulties and examined some of his labarynthine business arrangements. Picken revealed that the state-rescued RBS had lost patience with the former BoS director and was calling in a £600,000 loan; and that Masterton’s old employers BoS had lent him scores of millions of pounds on terms so lax they were virtually a gift. In a 3 March piece in the Mail on Sunday, Picken wrote:
Bank of Scotland wrote off a £4 million loan to a company owned by Mr Masterton – then sanctioned the £12 million loan to another of his companies that allowed it to skip repayments for the next 35 years.
There’s a distinctly bad smell about this. Why for example, was the Bank of Scotland, now one of several brand names belonging to Lloyds Banking Group, prepared to lend such huge sums and on such lax terms to its own former treasurer and managing director? Were any other borrowers allowed to borrow on these terms? How many of these loans were issued prior to Masterton’s retirement? Which executives inside the bank were responsible for signing off the loans?
We also need to know whether the loans extended to Masterton — who retired from the Bank of Scotland just after its merger with Halifax in June 2001 — were among the loans advanced without proper paperwork, due diligence or credit checking by the infamous former BoS Corporate managing director Ian Robertson, who quit the bank in June 2007 but died in August 2010. According to former Bank of Scotland Corporate insiders, Robertson’s empire was so dodgy — as a result of the poor quality of the lending within it, and the fact that he effectively ran it as a “bank within a bank”, without proper risk management, compliance, supervision, or boardroom oversight — that no-one else at BoS Corporate wanted to have anything to do with it after Robertson quit. One ex insider said: “people would run a mile rather than having anything to do with Robbo’s Bank”.
There are also questions surrounding the way in which HBOS’s Bank of Scotland Corporate unit got Kevin McCabe and Cesidio de Ciacca of Scarborough Development Group to mop up the financial carnage left by the collapse of Masterton’s BoS funded Stadia Management venture. There are also questions over why Masterton, now aged 72, has at various stages been a director of 78 companies – some of which borrowed tens or even hundreds of millions of pounds from the Bank of Scotland, and many of which were part-owned by the bank and its cronies. Didn’t Masterton’s presence on the boards of these firms create a dangerous conflict of interest, and didn’t BoS’s status as a shareholder in these businesses distort its perspective of their creditworthiness and proclivity to lend?
There is a positive side to Masterton, or at least seems to be. He was recently credited with helping to save Dunfermline Athletic Football Club (DAFC). Masterton, who was previously a 94% shareholder in the Fife-based club through East End Park Limited, did this by abstaining from a creditors’ voluntary arrangement (CVA) vote at the time of DAFC’s bankruptcy, which meant he effectively gave up his claim for £8.5m. Instead he handed his shares to administrator Bryan Jackson of the accountants PKF. Speaking in April, Masterton said:
“I have handed over my shareholding in DAFC in the hope that this will help the club rebuild for the future. For those of us who love this club anything which can be done to facilitate its future survival must be done. I have given my life to DAFC over the last few years and I hope that this move is one of many actions which need to be done swiftly to allow Bryan Jackson to more effectively do his job as the administrator. I appreciate that the fans will also be doing their best for the club and hope that we can all work together to ensure DAFC is still around for another 128 years.”
So back to Charlotte Eighteen. It is one of a group of similarly-named companies, ranging I believe from Charlotte One to Charlotte Thirty-Six. Contrary to what has been claimed by some in the blogosphere, the Charlotte companies have nothing to do with former Rangers owner Sir David Murray (his similarly-named private equity business, Charlotte Ventures, has different ownership). As far I can gather all the Charlottes are the — renamed — constituent parts of Bison Concrete, a company that was majority-owned the Bank of Scotland during the Eighties and Nineties.
Under Masterton, Bank of Scotland is understood to have bought the majority of the equity in Bison Concrete, a business which specialises in pre-cast concrete components for the UK construction industry and which was at the time headquartered in Iver, Buckinghamshire. The business was first acquired from the Saudi Arabian company National Concrete Industries in June 1985. There was a secondary buyout funded by Bank of Scotland in September 1988.
[Just a little bit of background here. Bison Concrete built 79 towers blocks for the City of Glasgow between 1962 and 1983. At that time it seems to have been something of a dodgy outfit. In the early 1980s, its former chief executive admitted to destroying documents after complaints were made about serious structural faults in tower blocks it built in Pollokshaws and Woodside. Heavily-indebted, Bison doesn’t seem to have performed too well in recent years either. It went bust in October 2008. In a pre-packaged administration deal organised by the accountancy firm PwC the same day it entered administration, the business, shorn of its debt, was acquired by Laing O’Rourke.]
The law firms that advised on the £10 million Bank of Scotland-funded MBO of Bison Concrete in 1988 were Lovells in England (now known as Hogan Lovells) and W&J Burness in Scotland (now known as Burness). Most of the numbered Charlotte firms (which for the most part were the renamed Bison Concrete and its renamed trading subsidiaries), owe their origins to that buyout. Many had ‘Bison’ in their previous names and were re-registered at Lovells’ 21 Holborn Viaduct address in London, or at Burness’s 12 Hope Street, Charlotte Square, Edinburgh address (Burness later moved to 50 Lothian Road in the same city). Except for Charlotte Eighteen which, as I have said, is registered in BVI.
One curious thing about Charlotte Eighteen, is that, according to a report in the Sunday Times (Scotland) (see below), it was used as a vehicle by Masterton to take a 75 per cent stake in Stadia Management in the early 2000s. I intend to do more research into the riddle of Charlotte18 in coming weeks, and am now collaborating with an investigative reporter who is an expert on corporate abuse of tax havens and hopefully also a professional adviser-turned-whistleblower. If anyone can provide further information on Charlotte 18 – which is likely to be spelt Charlotte Eighteen in official documentation — please get in touch.
Former BoSdirectorinrowoverloanforsoccershares
By Robert Ballantyne, Business Editor Scotland
Published: The Sunday Times
Date: 17 October 2004
[This article is subject to a legal complaint]
ONE of the Bank of Scotland’s most senior directors arranged a loan from the bank for an associate to buy a stake in a Scottish football club of which the banker was also a director. The shares were later acquired by a company controlled by the banker.
Documents given to the Sunday Times show that Gavin Masterton, at the time treasurer and managing director of Bank of Scotland, arranged between 1999 and 2000 for the associate to buy shares in Dunfermline Athletic with the loan. He also gave the associate a guarantee that the shares would be bought off him before the loan had to be repaid. Two years later — after Masterton had retired from the bank — the shares were sold to his company Stadia.
Masterton retired as treasurer and managing director of the Bank of Scotland in 2001. Banknotes which bear his signature remain in circulation today. Stadia, which developed property at both Dunfermline and Livingston football clubs, collapsed earlier this year with debts reported to total £25m.
Dominic Keane, the chairman of Livingston who faces personal bankruptcy as a result of the collapse, alleges that, while he was led to believe Masterton was acting for the Bank of Scotland, the banker was in fact working for Stadia. As a result, he argues, the Bank of Scotland should be jointly liable for losses incurred through his relationship with Masterton. The documents handed to The Sunday Times, on the condition that the name of Masterton’s associate remain anonymous, explain in detail how the Dunfermline deal was done.
After a discussion with the associate about buying a stake in Dunfermline, Masterton sent a letter to him, on headed notepaper from “Gavin Masterton CBE, treasurer and managing director, Bank of Scotland, The Mound, Edinburgh,” which said: “I appreciate your willingness to enter into this transaction and,I am sure that we will have a purchaser for the shares in place before the next settlement date. You have my guarantee in this regard.”
The associate then received what he claims was an unsolicited loan application in June 2000 from Bank of Scotland Corporate Banking, offering £69,250 at 1½% above base rate, with no security, no arrangement fees and with interest payments deferred until the end of the three-year loan period. The application form made it clear the facility was offered “only for an investment in DAFC”. Two years later, the final part of the arrangement was effected. A letter to the associate from solicitors for Wood Investments, a company which included Masterton as a director, said: “We will arrange with Bank of Scotland to have the loan account relating to the DAFC shares cleared using funds from Stadia.” At no point, the associate says, did he have to put up his own cash. He bought 11,273 shares, which were held in a nominee account on his behalf by Wood Investments for two years.
The loan was then cleared using funds from Stadia, which ultimately took control of the football club.
Masterton this weekend said the bank had been at all times aware of his actions. “Oh dear, there’s no end to this,” he said. “Yes, there were loan arrangements to individuals, but they weren’t preferential. I’m not going into all of this. It was all perfectly legitimate. We wanted to do it in that particular way. It was a very small amount of shares.” A spokesman for Halifax Bank of Scotland said: “There are very clear procedures within the group for managing business affairs. Those procedures have been followed.”
In another letter from Masterton to his associate, entitled “Stadia Management Ltd” and written on the same headed notepaper from his personal office, he discusses the re-alignment of shares in Stadia on the basis of a firm named Charlotte 18 holding 75%. Charlotte 18 is believed to be an offshore company in the Caribbean tax haven of the British Virgin Islands.
Registration details of the company, started in 1998 and operated by Bison Financial Services in Tortola, British Virgin Islands, have been seen by The Sunday Times. The details include no directors, but state that “there are not many money transfer restrictions” and that the agents cannot give any more details “as they are prohibited by the prevailing laws of secrecy”.
Asked about Charlotte 18, Masterton said yesterday: “It was five years ago — I don’t know. It’s not my company — has the name been changed? Charlotte is one of the lawyers’ companies, a shell company.”
Keane, a former banker, is outraged at what he sees as the bank’s attempts to disassociate itself from Masterton’s actions. The bank’s assertion has always been that Masterton made clear that he was acting for his own company.
Keane said he had regarded Masterton and the Bank of Scotland as interchangeable. “I wish I’d never met him — the bank has to accept some responsibility in this.”
The other main evidence I have is a letter sent by a a Scottish businessman to the FSA on 21 February 2005. Some names have been redacted.
Inquiry number: 20050126/RMN020333/
Dear Ms Phillips
Thank you very much indeed for your reply by email … I note your comments about the Financial Ombudsman Service but, unfortunately, this matter is not simply an isolated case of an individual grievance against a financial institution.
This complaint involves the professional actions of the former Treasurer and Managing Director of a PLC, listed on the London Stock Exchange, and the subsequent behaviour of the PLC in clearing up these alleged irregularities, which would appear to involve the hiding of substantial debt write-off and the resulting over-inflation of the asset value of the PLC’s balance sheet.
It requires a full inquiry and a public statement from the institution about whether it allows its senior executives to conduct business on their own behalf while running a PLC. This is a matter of major public interest and needs clarification from the FSA. Given the status of the individual concerned and that he carried specific nominated responsibility under the Banking Licence Regulations then I would assume that this would have merited a more detailed investigation.
…This is not a difficult inquiry for the FSA. One fundamental question needs to be raised about whether the operations of a secret bank account held in the British Virgin Islands, called Charlotte 18, was acting in the best interests of the customers and shareholders of The Bank of Scotland. Were money laundering processes and procedures clearly followed? Clearly not, given that the current office-bearers of the bank, as recently as October 2004, did not know of the existence of this company [ Charlotte Eighteen ] and the fact that it was the parent company behind some of the former Managing Director’s companies.
If you feel this is appropriate and you have been given satisfactory answers then there is no case for Mr Xxxxx. I refer you to the legal case of Woods versus Martins Bank, which is used as a touchstone for banking ethics and standards in the UK: “Any ordinarily prudent and competent bank manager, especially the bank manager of a commercial branch, should know that before advising the investment of money in the preference shares of any company, let alone in a private company, he should be able to see from the balance-sheet figures that the financial position of the company is strong enough to ensure that the investor’s capital is safe and from the trading history of the company that the interest would be paid.”
The legal ruling says that a bank manager has a “fiduciary duty” to act in the customers’ best interests. … and Mr Xxxxx claims that in “fixing” this position the parent company, HBOS, has used assets to cover up the bad debts caused by the collapse of a company run by the former Managing Director of the Bank of Scotland. Such irregularities need to be properly examined by competent and independent authorities. This is clearly outwith the jurisdiction of the Financial Ombudsman Service.
What is concerning is that the Financial Services Authority can make a judgement on this matter without viewing the proper information, especially the detailed information only held by Mr Xxxxx. So far, you have only received a brief letter stating the complaint. I’d also like to remind you that there are some serious conflicts of interests involving this case because [ HBOS chief executive ] James Crosby is a non-executive director of the FSA. He is aware of this case and has chosen not to investigate it inside HBOS. I would also advise that Mr Xxxxx also has been a victim of serious threats which have been referred to the police authorities.
I believe Mr Xxxxx at least needs to have his case heard by FSA investigators. If you then decide there is nothing further to do then at least you will have heard both sides of position.
Kind regards,
The FSA, where James Crosby had been a director since January 2004 (conveniently for the bank, he was doubling up as chief executive of HBOS from 2004-06!!), dithered for months about this complaint. When the regulator finally reached a decision later in 2005, it dismissed the complaint on the spurious grounds that it “did not police business models”. HBOS went spectacularly bust three years later, though it escaped oblivion thanks to a state-sanctioned rescue takeover by Lloyds TSB.
Above taken from
http://www.ianfraser.org/gavin-masterton-and-the-riddle-of-charlotte-18/
The best financial journalist out there
Bookmark his site and read the archives and visit it once a month.
HH
kitalba
08:19 on
28 November, 2013
I think Saturday’s message was more provocative, and yet nothing was said. Was it that nobody complained? I doubt it.
UEFA love their sponsors, their sponsors don’t want to be linked to political messages and therefore UEFA come down very heavy on them. In some ways more so than eg racism or violence because it’s a lot easier to blame those on mindless thugs. They also don’t care about the OBA, or to a degree the fans inside the stadium.
The club need that UEFA money more thane ever and they’ll do anything to ensure it’s not at risk. Hence the very quick reaction from the club.
That’s where there’s a huge difference between the Tricolour affair. It was played out in hugely different circumstances for the club and it’s overall operation.
As I said last night, it’s actually quite a clever message and I suspect had they stuck to domestic matches they might have got away with it.
southside
07:53 on 28 November, 2013
I’m beginning to wonder if they are being infultrated by people with a radical political philosophy / agenda, and would wonder what that has got to do with supporting Celtic these days. They seem to have developed a belligerent / confrontational approach recently……. inviting a reaction from the PLC….?
PJBhoynyc
05.47
Excellent post
fritzsong
08:01 on
28 November, 2013
I think the GB are on to something. In 1950s eastern Europe football crowds used the anonymity of the terrace to voice their feelings about the police and the regime.
Much of the GB stuff isn’t just good, it’s brilliant. But they are more fixated with 1980s Irish politics than the Irish. Sands could have been a towering figure in any era and he merits respect. The danger for the GB is that they become increasingly out of context and out of date.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I would suggest that the GB “politics” have been out of date since the Good Friday Agreement of 1997.
The reason they use banners at the match is that not enough people read their blogs, presumably?
As a kid growing up in Glasgow in the 1960’s Celtic was, as it is today, the default football team to support as a Roman Catholic in the West of Scotland.
We as a collective are for the most part descended from West of Ireland/Donegal economic refugees fleeing the economics of starvation formulated from imperialist London policies. Thats the bare facts.
Brother Walfrid (among others) saw the need to aid people in distress and the nascent entertainment vehicle of football was selected for the purpose. Thats all there is.
Celtic quite simply was formed to feed and shelter people, it was never the political inheritor of Wolf Tone’s Irish Independence ideology.
Bobby Sands may be a direct linear descendent from this but he is not Scottish and not connected to Celtic FC.
The GB agenda was always Bobby Sands and the William Wallace banner was just a ploy.
We fly the Tricolour as a mark of respect and a visible acknowledgement of our roots in Donegal (there would have been no Tricolour extant prior to 1923 I imagine) nothing else.
The OIRA, PIRA, INLA and CONTINUITY IRA ideology has no place whatsoever at Celtic FC.
I’m sorry GB, your time has come and gone in my book.
twists n turns:
I haven’t read back so I did miss it, but his post well resonate, more so, ever so more so, unless the Club comes to terms with its identity (whether historical or wanabe).
Mate, me, I’m clinging on to straws at the moment. I really find it all so hard to comprehend. Every day that passes, when my Club, our Club, goes belly up in silence, my grip weakens, my interest seems to evaporate that wee bit more. I don’t think you’d want to meet me at the moment mate, I would not be good company. Celtic, and the caring and giving culture, was once one of my three mainstays in life along my parents and the Church.
Two out of three have gone, but I’ll hope and pray for the less fortunates’ at mass on Sunday.
SFTB @ 16 04 -27/11/13.
” I fear we may have a different understanding of specificity “.
I think you are right .
I made a point clearly defined as relating to Juve , you responded with a point relating to Milan.
greendreamz
09:04 on 28 November, 2013
‘Brother Walfrid (among others) saw the need to aid people in distress and the nascent entertainment vehicle of football was selected for the purpose. Thats all there is.’
###
That’s certainly the bowdlerised version we are fed. But there was more to it than that.
weeminger:
Apologies, I haven’t read back, so I don’t know what you are referring to; however, is football really about sponsors, is it really about the players, is it really about the fans.
What sponsors would Celtic say no to?
What sponsors would Celtic fans say no to?
When Celtic won the European Cup, were Celtic – sponsored…. ?
Sponsorship killed class, and bred nasty-rich footballers and like-minded fans.
This is going to descend into a songs debate but the GB have put the question out there – what is the tangible difference between Flower of Scotland and BOTOB that would see one proscribed and one not.
One certainly celebrates defeating an enemy and moreover talks about doing so again.
murdochbhoy
07:58 on 28 November, 2013,
What a disgusting and dangerous man Johnson is.
His mask hasn’tjust slipped, he has removed it to glorify poverty and a she devil that didn’t have an ounce of compassion in her bones. Ding Dong
Weeminger.
Not only that but has left the spfl scrambling trying to penalise the gb for displaying the words of the national anthem.
Farce.
kitalba
09:18 on
28 November, 2013
It’s UEFA’s sponsors that I’m talking about. UEFA doesn’t want to lose them, so comes down heavy handed on political displays at matches in it’s competitions.
The club in turn are desperate not to lose the UEFA money, so in turn respond very quickly to assure them that it will be dealt with.
To me this is backed up by the lack of statement after Saturday’s display, which I think was more likely to draw complaints (although perhaps it wasn’t seen by as many).
The Honest Mistake loves being first
09:25 on
28 November, 2013
That’s why I think it’s quite a clever campaign. Putting the lyric from Flower of Scotland under the pictures of William Wallace and Bobby Sands would have been even more effective I think.
kitalba
09:18 on
28 November, 2013
Sorry Kitalba, completely misread your post there.
The fact that we weren’t reliant on sponsorship (whetehr direct or via competition earnings) income in those heady days tells you everything about our current game.
What kind of team could we field relying purely on fan income?
Morning Bhoys and Ghirls,
The GB debate continues. Is it relevant ? Yes. It is still the most read and commentated issue in the media. Even more so that the future of Scotland.That is precisely why the club will act.
Was it the point of the GB to target this game to achieve maximum publicity, knowing full well it would damage the club and damn the consequences. The old chestnut of there is no such thing as bad publicity being the prevailing thought.?
If so their strategy has worked, but it may prove to be an own goal.
IMO and with the greatest respect, some posters are missing the point.
FAC is a justifiable cause which deserves our full support. The odious ” Offensive behaviour and threatening communications act” has to be challenged. The SNP government and Police Scotland are not in the right as numerous magistrates have shown to their credit. No quarrel about this and the SNP government will feel our wrath where it hurts– at the voting booth.
But our vital CL match under the auspices of EUFA was not the right venue for this. We are simply not allowed this kind of political stunt. No rights, no wrongs this is the reality and the club will suffer. This kind of display also divides our fan base which again is not acceptable.
In closing the club cannot be used as a vehicle for a section of the supports political ideology.
It is worth reiterating just why the club was formed. As we are all aware the club was formed by Brother Walfrid in the Calton with the sole purpose of alleviating poverty in the East End of Glasgow ( Where I used to go to school ) nothing else.
It was others who saw the potential of financial gains to be made, notably one John Glass ( Unfortunate Surname IMO )
HH, Always in Celtic.
weeminger:
I didn’t see the game at the weekend, truth be know, I can’t even remember what was the last game I did watch, so I don’t know what Saturday’s display was about.
pjbhoynyc
So in what you are saying is if we don’t agree with the GB banner, it’s because we didn’t get the message and that we are all to thick to understand what it meant,? Yep your toeing the party line with the GB, pompous and arrogant, if you don’t agree with the GB politics you shouldn’t be at Celtic Park, and the GB statement, who was there spokesman? You won’t here that name or names as they all hide behind innocent teenagers who hold up there banners, and haven’t a clue what it means, but for all your arrogance your agenda has been outed, you (the leaders) are at Celtic Park for one thing only, and that is to use my club as a podium for your politics, well 95% of us are making a stand! get out! and get out now! WE ARE CELTIC SUPPORTERS, some one had to say it, to some this will read as an opinion, to others it will read the truth, and the rest will pick up spelling and grammar mistakes or snide jibes at me, fill yer boots.
weeminger:
“What kind of team could we field relying purely on fan income?”
I’m not sure, we might not win the Champions League, but it might bring a wee bit of parity to the SPL. (Not that I’m saying that that is deserving of the other clubs efforts).
UEFA ?
Aurelio De Laurentiis , owner of Napoli FC, has long argued that UEFA’s bread and circuses come with a big string attached ———–take the money and then do what UEFA tells you to do.or else.
greendreamzour @09.04
Reading back I totally agree. Although I had not read your post, the similarity and thought process of our posts is evident. Apologies for this.
HH, Always in Celtic.
The GB complained before of lack of cooperation from and access to the club.
This was given and the GB has now abused that trust.
Outside the rights and wrongs of their supposed message and my abhorrence of ‘the Act’ it is clear they ‘duped’ the club and DELIBERATELY. targeted the event where the club was MOST likely to suffer a penalty.
To me this is an issue of trust and embarrassment outwith the issues arising from the message and ‘the Act’.
In respect of the former the GB were wrong wrong and wrong and can have no complaints when the club withdraws all cooperation and perhaps closes the section.
I find it hard to imagine anyone who would not understand the club taking such action.
To be absolutely clear…the club was horrendously stupid not to fight against the proposed legislation from the outset. The opportunity to stand up and lead the campaign against it was there and not taken.
Greenpinata
09:32 on 28 November, 2013
‘It is worth reiterating just why the club was formed. As we are all aware the club was formed by Brother Walfrid in the Calton with the sole purpose of alleviating poverty in the East End of Glasgow ( Where I used to go to school ) nothing else.’
###
Even if that is true, which it isn’t, so what?
The idea of raising money to feed the poor was ditched soon enough and other aspects came into the mix and they all form part of the Club’s heritage and traditions.
Morning all
Just read the Johnson piece. As one of the 2% with an IQ above 130 I have always thought I was underprivileged. And that IQs were a load of twaddle
Jimbo67 supporting Oscar Knox
kitalba
08:19 on 28 November, 2013,
Good post, although I don’t agree with all of the gb’s actions, mainly the ones that gets celtic into trouble, they generate a terrific atmosphere.
My son and daughter go to the games with me and sometimes I think they watch the gb more than the game.
Maybe one of the older or more sensible ones involved with the gb could steer them to be more streetwise…after all there’s more than one way to skin a cat or rats.HH
Here is the response that I received from the Dutch Embassy when I complained about the treatment of the Celtic support.
Dear Mr S,
Thank you for your message. Our Deputy Head of Mission Margriet Leemhuis met with a group of Celtic fans on Friday 15 November during a peaceful demonstration outside our Embassy. She listened carefully to their concerns and reported these both to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and to the Public Prosecution Service in Amsterdam. She also sent a personal reply to a letter presented to her by a representative of Celtic fans during the protest.
The Embassy is not in a position to further influence or comment on legal cases. For consular enquiries involving British nationals in the Netherlands, the British Embassy in The Hague should be your first port of call.
Yours sincerely,
Netherlands Embassy
(BTW the GB are in the WRONG!!!!!! Celtic Park is a football stadium and politics should be discussed at home or in the pub.)
I seem to remember in the mid to late sixties Sean Fallon having an article printed reminding Celtic supporters that the club colours were green and white and no other colour!!!!!