Apologies to all who, like me, tired of the circular ‘songs debate’ on CQN many years ago. Back in 2011, when Celtic had a similar action from Uefa to defend as they now face, I predicted a slow train wreck:
“The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
“I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
“Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.”
A few weeks later I wrote:
“Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
“While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.”
Since then:
Uefa and the SPL have reprimanded Celtic.
Efforts have been made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which mostly fail.
Despite pleas from Neil Lennon, or earlier from Jock Stein, some insist on signing political songs. As Jock and Neil were ignored it remains an act of vanity for lesser mortals to try to convince others to desist.
Charges have been brought for expressing sentiment similar to that in Flower of Scotland.
Celtic have not, should not and cannot try to mitigate IRA chanting or banners as inconsequential. It is not inconsequential, Jock Stein knew it a long time before the SNP government. Fill your boots on debating why it has consequences below, it’s a huge intellectual topic, you’ll enjoy it, then you’ll get bored of it and move on.
If you want the opportunity to have a Debating Society on this, there is space on the comments section, knock yourself out. I’ve been through the songs debate often enough to know some of our community feel it is incumbent upon them to sing IRA songs at football games. Pointing out the words of Jock Stein, or the inevitable conclusion to this singing, or how things have developed in Ireland, will not change this perspective.
That’s the thing about slow train wrecks, nothing can stop them. It’s more productive to plan on how to deal with the aftermath.
Congratulations to the Bucketeers who raised over £26k for the costs of mounting an appropriate legal defence to the Dam Square five. This is a stunning amount of money raised, which demonstrates the strength of feeling among the support.
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FAVOURITE UNCLE
13:15 on
28 November, 2013
I think you need to re-read what I wrote but to save you scrolling back. I said that there were probably those in Govt at the time that thought “we (ie the Govt) should have nothing to do with former Irgun members. However the biggest political gain was by dealing with them.
I’m absolutely struggling to see why ‘we’ (the support) would ever have need to consider having anything to do former Irgun members. If any of them are in fact still alive.
Jungle Jim
13:52 on 28 November, 2013
The three main players are:
The Green Brigade;
Celtic FC;
UEFA.
Who is most at fault?
UEFA certainly get my vote . Pompous organisation.
JJ
……………………….
…..and who is going to win?
Answers on a postcard.
Hugh MacDiarmid poet and visionary, medic in World War One, communist and co-founder of the Scottish National Party once said that once Ireland is one nation Scotland would follow. In this important year why therefore associate The Wallace with football – why not associate Wallace with the struggle against Imperialism which is the best ground to stand on?
To put Wallace on a banner is one thing but not in this luminous context. It’s pathetic.
Whatever happened in the Troubles is best articulated by present day politicians and not latter day terracing protagonists.
I for one, enjoy the lack of Saturday night hooliganism that has emerged since those so called supporters of the BIG 2 (to give it a name) have been kept apart. It STILL remains to be seen if the new laws are responsible. If those on the terraces do not like the laws of the land let them go into politics – perhaps then they will see the pomposity of their banners. If this was Eire in 1923 – I doubt they would have been allowed into a Gaelic football match never mind a great club like Celtic.
South Of Tunis
Well done…. although this does come from the post cod-piece period.(Beard, suit jacket and open-kneched shirt)
Your prize is a mint copy of “A Passion Play” Now, that is prog rock that Rick Wakeman would’ve been proud of
That’ll larn ye not to demonstrate knowledge@
The Green Brigade were getting loads of praise after the Milan game . They created atmosphere ,they kept singing and chanting to the end and they seemed to have the goodwill of most if not all of the Celtic fans in my section.
No-one was talking about Tuesdays or Saturdays banner display . It wasnt an issue until……. some hurting hun grasses them into UEFA and suddenly everyone is on their case.
Football clubs have always had flags and banners that reflect their history and culture.
In this case they wernt exactly praising the IRA ,it was more that they were questioning hypocrosy and a flawed legislation.
Jungle Jim
I did reply to you later on that day, may have been evening!
Thanks for your reply.
The AS that i know was in banking and has lived in Troon for years, so different guys.
Goes to most games home and away.
I have enjoyed the atmosphere created by the GB but they now hurting this club!
DBBIA
…but are you sure?
Philbhoy
Did you see my post re Alan Swankie !!
JJ
PS Of course UEFA will win. Silver to Celtic and the GB will be banned.
auldheid
13:16 on 28 November, 2013,
It would be interesting to know how much hooper wanted, if he really wanted to stay in the first place.
It would also be interesting to know how much he earns now, mainly warming a bench.
Like most that put their two pennies worth on Paul’s forum, we just want what is best for the
club.
To me too much money has been squandered on mibees that won’t and don’t meet the mark.
A return to buying a player that can pull the hoops on and start from the off is what most want…surely it’s not too much to ask for.
I go back a few years supporting Celtic and took the up’s and downs.
Probably not as long as your good self though:)
I will continue to support my club as best I can… But the board have to reciprocate with allowing our manager to put a bit of quality on the park, rather than stop gaps or players if they come good, then make a fast buck.
We had the nucleus of a good team to build on last season, with the addition of Virgil and a proven striker, we would have been a real team to contend with.
Maybe next year.HH
..any questions about Radar Love should be directed towards Johnnie Walker (Radio 2 Sundats 3-5). He knows everything.
Philbhoy
Bit of an overlap. The Alan Swankie I know is a hun. Made me laugh thinking of him going to ” most games home and away ” made me smile 0:-)
JJ
I read a post from Right Rev David Hay saying he was so fed up with the club he was jacking it in
Said bye to the blog too.
Don’t think many made comment.
Shame.
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan supports Oscar Knox, MacKenzie Furniss and anyone else who fights Neuroblastoma
11:11 on
28 November, 2013
As fine a post on here or anywhere else, as I have read in many a long day. Well said.
Dan
It was last night, i think.
Memory nae good noo!
£26k……WOW……Hail Hail to all..
Jungle Jim
No problem!
The AS I know is a nice guy. Loves Arbroath, leanings towards us and hates the deid club.
Cheers.
Philbhoy -if that is true then that’s a shame.
I liked RRDHPPF, one of the old brigade on here.
DBBIA
I was scrolling back a wee while ago and noticed his post.
Seemed a nice guy.
RRDHPPF?
What’s all this crap about Scotland not being in the EU if it votes for independance?
Surely all Scotland has to do is call themselves ‘The Scotland’, dump all forms of debt, tell HMRC to GTF and start off next season in EU Division 3.
Isn’t that how it works?
Banning the GB would be crazy. Most of the younger generation of Celtic fans identify with them. There are thousands of wannabe GB’ers.
If the GB is kicked out I predict a sharp fall in attendances.
The Battered Bunnet
13:41 on
28 November, 2013
Slow train wrecks is it? And the consequences?…
On Twin Earth, a brain in a vat is at the wheel of a runaway train. There are only two options that the brain can take: the right side of the fork in the track or the left side of the fork. There is no way in sight of derailing or stopping the train and the brain is aware of this, for the brain knows trains. The brain is causally hooked up to the train such that the brain can determine the course which the train will take.
On the right side of the track there is a single railroad worker, Jones, who will definitely be killed if the brain steers the train to the right. If the railman on the right lives, he will go on to kill five men for the sake of killing them, but in doing so will inadvertently save the lives of thirty orphans (one of the five men he will kill is planning to destroy a bridge that the orphans’ bus will be crossing later that night). One of the orphans that will be killed would have grown up to become a tyrant who would make good utilitarian men do bad things. Another of the orphans would grow up to become G.E.M. Anscombe, while a third would invent the pop-top can.
If the brain in the vat chooses the left side of the track, the train will definitely hit and kill a railman on the left side of the track, “Leftie” and will hit and destroy ten beating hearts on the track that could (and would) have been transplanted into ten patients in the local hospital that will die without donor hearts. These are the only hearts available, and the brain is aware of this, for the brain knows hearts. If the railman on the left side of the track lives, he too will kill five men, in fact the same five that the railman on the right would kill. However, “Leftie” will kill the five as an unintended consequence of saving ten men: he will inadvertently kill the five men rushing the ten hearts to the local hospital for transplantation. A further result of “Leftie’s” act would be that the busload of orphans will be spared. Among the five men killed by “Leftie” are both the man responsible for putting the brain at the controls of the train, and the author of this example. If the ten hearts and “Leftie” are killed by the train, the ten prospective heart-transplant patients will die and their kidneys will be used to save the lives of twenty kidney-transplant patients, one of whom will grow up to cure cancer, and one of whom will grow up to be Hitler. There are other kidneys and dialysis machines available, however the brain does not know kidneys, and this is not a factor.
Assume that the brain’s choice, whatever it turns out to be, will serve as an example to other brains-in-vats and so the effects of his decision will be amplified. Also assume that if the brain chooses the right side of the fork, an unjust war free of war crimes will ensue, while if the brain chooses the left fork, a just war fraught with war crimes will result. Furthermore, there is an intermittently active Cartesian demon deceiving the brain in such a manner that the brain is never sure if it is being deceived.
I was fine with it all up to the point about Des Cartes. Substance Dualism is a dead duck. Property Dualism is still up for debate. My own favourite is Panprotopsychism. :-)
What if Michael Corleone had fumbled about behind the cistern and pulled out a Ukelele?
I wonder how many of the GB actually understand what is going on, or are they a crowd of gullible adults/youngsters falling in behind as directed?
cadizzy
Don’t think I have had the pleasure of hearing it . I remember it being given a 3 word review in Rolling Stone
CONSTIPATED AND REDUNDANT.
MRS S of T is finally ready -off oot.
BSR
he would have formby’d them to death.
bsr
He would have had to banjo those two instead.
Could have changed the whole movie.
The love of Italians for prog rock led ole Dick Byrne to fill his codpiece with Heinz spaghetti hoops before very performance.
By the time he came off the stage ole Dick said they were perfectly ‘al dente’.
We play an average defender in midfield.
While talented young midfield players are loaned out or watch from the under 20s or sidelines.
Why?
TBB
I would shut down that railway and replace it with a tram system.
Any organisation that pursues an employee policy of taking on only murderers or moral philosophers and leaves hearts for heart transplants lying carelessly around the place, deserves to go out of business.
‘Right Reverend David Hay Preaching Pure Football.’
According to Chief Superintendent Barlow and PC Murdoch…
“The ukulele originated in the 19th century as a Hawaiian interpretation of the machete,[3] a small guitar-like instrument related to the cavaquinho, braguinha and the rajao, taken to Hawaii by Portuguese immigrants.”
Maybe it was the other type of machete in which case wee Michael would have been fine…..a new suit might have been needed but fine all the same.
BSR -if he’d begun strummin’ the ole ‘Broad Black Brimmer’ UEFA would have stepped in and got him lifted.
T B B. celled.
DBBIA
Thanks!
It was the second bit I couldny get!
philbhoy – free the dam 5!
14:02 on 28 November, 2013,
It was last night he posted, I think all the infighting p****d him off.
Ok, we are all down with the nieve performance on Tuesday and the lack of investment in quality… Ride the storm and hopefully we get a double.
Could be worse, think of the hunchbacks that can’t look you in the eye as their in fighting within their new club is destroying their fan base….why we need to ensure they suffer more and don’t come back in their new guise to haunt us….Pl you know where we are coming from!
My take on this banner issue is quite simple. UEFA rules forbid political chanting and banners at games in their juristriction. Tuesday night’s game was in UEFA’s premier club competition, therefore don’t make political chants or display political banners.
Whether people like that rule or not it should be adhered to. I personally don’t like the rule. I also don’t like the law forbiding alcohol consumption in the ground but I don’t think it’s fine to pitch up with a carry out and conduct a liquid protest.
Where I sit in 412 I saw a group holding up a banner which we couldn’t read at the time as we were behind it. Before kick off they gathered their banner then, with their faces hidden under scarves/hoods RAN (I kid you not) out of the stadium.
I cannot understand the mentality of someone who would pay for a ticket, hold a banner then run out of the stadium before the game begins. Bizarre behaviour for a grown adult. What a waste of a ticket apart from anything else.
Imagine having a conversation with these people. “Rotten game last night, eh?”
“Dunno. I was at the game but held up a banner about Bobby Sands then ran away before the game kicked off”
Breaching the rule will lead to another club fine and I’d honestly like to see it passed on to the people responsible for the banner.
I can actually sympathise with the sentiment of the protest but, like I say, UEFA rules are clear. Stick to them. If people want to protest about it do it outside the stadium before or after the game. They can even have a few pints before and after the match to. Just not at the stadium.
Dbbia
Not necessarily, he used it in New York, Louis Restaurant in the Bronx I think. Completely outwith uefa jurisdiction.