Apologies to all who, like me, tired of the circular ‘songs debate’ on CQN many years ago. Back in 2011, when Celtic had a similar action from Uefa to defend as they now face, I predicted a slow train wreck:
“The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
“I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
“Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.”
A few weeks later I wrote:
“Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
“While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.”
Since then:
Uefa and the SPL have reprimanded Celtic.
Efforts have been made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which mostly fail.
Despite pleas from Neil Lennon, or earlier from Jock Stein, some insist on signing political songs. As Jock and Neil were ignored it remains an act of vanity for lesser mortals to try to convince others to desist.
Charges have been brought for expressing sentiment similar to that in Flower of Scotland.
Celtic have not, should not and cannot try to mitigate IRA chanting or banners as inconsequential. It is not inconsequential, Jock Stein knew it a long time before the SNP government. Fill your boots on debating why it has consequences below, it’s a huge intellectual topic, you’ll enjoy it, then you’ll get bored of it and move on.
If you want the opportunity to have a Debating Society on this, there is space on the comments section, knock yourself out. I’ve been through the songs debate often enough to know some of our community feel it is incumbent upon them to sing IRA songs at football games. Pointing out the words of Jock Stein, or the inevitable conclusion to this singing, or how things have developed in Ireland, will not change this perspective.
That’s the thing about slow train wrecks, nothing can stop them. It’s more productive to plan on how to deal with the aftermath.
Congratulations to the Bucketeers who raised over £26k for the costs of mounting an appropriate legal defence to the Dam Square five. This is a stunning amount of money raised, which demonstrates the strength of feeling among the support.
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CQN Annual, get it while it’s hot:
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bsr
“What if Michael Corleone had fumbled about behind the cistern and pulled out a Ukelele?”
George Formby impressions can be fatal too.
Celtic publicly donated £10,000 to the Poppy Appeal. That is the prism through which we should gaze critically at their policy of appeasement. Our grandchildren will be obedient consumers.
fan-a-tic
The manager disney like youngsters, no matter how good they are……..or might be!
I do feel for the young players at CP not getting a chance.
Maybe we need a manager who will give youth a chance.
We could potentially save millions and make millions more.
Maybe I’ll have a word with Big Peter the next time I see him.
European CXhampions League standings afetr 5 games:
Group A Real Sociadad 1 pt.
Group B FC Copenhagen 4 pts.
Group C Anderlecht 1 pt.
Group D CSKA 3 pts.
Viktoria Plzen 0 pts.
Group E Steaua Bucharest 3 pts.
Group F Marseille
Group G
group H
Philbhoy-free the dam 5
Nail on head.
We need a more progressive approach than the present coaches have if our youth academy is to produce results.
European Champions League standings after 5 games:
Last position in Groups (except Group D – 3rd. and 4th. positions)
Group A Real Sociadad 1 pt.
Group B FC Copenhagen 4 pts.
Group C Anderlecht 1 pt.
Group D CSKA 3 pts.
Viktoria Plzen 0 pts.
Group E Steaua Bucharest 3 pts.
Group F Marseille 0 pts.
Group G Austria Vienna 2 pts.
Group H Celtic 3 pts.
paul67
with all due respect to you and this great site, Tuesday has absolutely no bearing on any song debate here or elswere, and before I go any further, I 1000% (the extra nought is deliberate) agree that the time has come to leave the songs at the front door.
my gripe with the club is this, in a country were you can sing songs or display banners in support (and quite rightly so ) of 1 of scotlands greatest FREEDOM FIGHTERS in sir William Wallace, a man who was murdered by English hands, why? for taking the fight for the freedom of Scotland to the English,and again you can sing songs and display banners celebrating (again quite rightly so) the life of the great man nelson mandela, who again has spent almost his entire life fighting for equality in his own land,indeed we have had songs top the charts in this country regarding mr mandela and even steve biko,yet you are dragged out of your bed at 4 in the morning for singing a song or displaying a banner celebrating the lives of 10 OF THE BRAVEST MEN EVER BORN, this not only smacks of total hypocrisy, it is for purposes, anti- irish racism.
we should not only as paul has said… “have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.”. it is imperative we keep hold of who and why our club was started in the first place,there are quite a few in our support and indeed on here would be quite happy to drop all mention of Ireland, but tough, there are far more (like myself) who are intensely proud of our/my irish heritage,my god even the hallowed turf is reared over in the emerald isle,
the club have either (in my opinion) taken the stance or indeed been pushed into the thinking that anything irish, wether it be singing or displaying banners illegal.
to me, and agin only my opinion,is a defining period for the custodians of our club, they in their silence regarding the criminalisation of our fans are in danger of losing a very large portion of the support, before I started this rant I categorically stated I was against the songs/banners, but as the song says “in song you can protest”, a song the club are not slow to use come matchday..I don’t have a solution, but dialogue and I mean real dialogue not 10 minutes with a liason officer or some other deligate, fans and board at a table together and a wee show of solidarity with the fans now and again..rant over….HAIL HAIL…
Big nan
I have not got the ability to discuss your subject with you ,i am not that intelligent
But after reading what they are doing to hinder you ,you are batting it right back at them. Keep at it ,your the wee guy against the big guy and you are easily holding your own against them.
Good luck in your quest
HH
I think there was big pressure on the board after tuesdays display about clear lack of them doing what they say.. About all funds from transfer are reinvested in the squad.
For a long time people have been fed up with excuses and 2nd class targets every transfer window and it seemed that the penny dropped on a large majority of fans after the milan game.
The board have not properly backed our manager and streghtened from a strong position.
The biggest mistake the GB made was taking the heat off the board and on them.
now the pressure on Lawell isnt as much as it was straight after the game.. The support where mainly united on the fact transfer wise he’s let us down.
Now thw focus and anger is directed at the GB.
CeltIc’s Non Scoring Trouble
disnae Lie in the Stars or in the Loabby..
Na.. it Lies .. Yonder..
IN THE MID FIELD.. or. as the Cognoscenti, RIGHTLY . call it..
OOR ENGINE- ROOM.
Fur.. Whit we hiv is Mair like.. a Rest Home,
One ….Which is Populated Presently, NOT by the Wanna Be-s..
or by The Couldnae Be-s.. But ,By a Bunch o’ the ..
NEVER BE-s!
In Short .. Oor Present Group of Mid Fielders..
STINK.
Yes, they Dae.. Don’t Argue.
Neil, has Infected the Present Mid Field Incumbents.. wi his Ain Brand
of
Patty- Cake- It is!
Yes,he has..
Neil, hid a Career.. In which he played the Game..
Like an Air-Raid Warden..
He wiz awe aboot.. SAFETY FIRST!
as long as He didnae Lose the Ba’.. He wiz Happy.
and.. Ah must admit.. Neil, didnae Lose Many Ba’s
He wiz a Supreme Expert at..
Making sure that He Never hid it Long enuff ,in his Possession ..fur him tae Lose it.
He wiz the Epitome of ..
A Passer of the Buck.. although,in his Case.. It Wiznae a Buck. but a Ba’.
Neil, needs a Fresh Approach tae the Manly Art o Mid-Fielding.
His ideas are.. oan how a Mid Fielder should Go Aboot his Business..’
ur.. far too Contingent … oan.. SAFETY FIRST..
We need a Far more..
Adventurous Approach from oor Mid Fielders..
And..It seems tae me …that as Long as Neil. is calling the Shots..
Oan How oor Mid Fielders should Go Aboot thur Business..
Celtic, wull Continue tae Struggle ..in the Goal Scoring Dept.
He has packed oor Present Mid Field Line up
With
Defensive Players..
Broonie, Mulgrew, Kayal and Ledley.. All Guys who excel in Holding up the Ball..
But, Not one of Them.,,Has Mastered the Art of
The Telling Pass..( Mebbe, Mulgrew..has.. oan Occasion. tae be fair..)
And that is wit oor.. Lonely and Starved group of Would be.. Strikers..
are Calling oot fur.
We need tae Root oot oor INFECTEd Mid Field..
And start up a New Wan..
Wan that Neil, disnae Build.
He kin still, dae a Credibel Joab ,as a Team Manager, fur he has Loats of ither Good Points..
But.. Ah tell Ye this.
Neil , Has no idea oan how tae go aboot..
Assembling an Attacking and a Defensive.. Mid Field.
He needs Help, there.
Kojo
Still, Laughin’
Maks sense tae Me.
The real problem with the GB banner controversy is not potential fines or repercussions for the club.
It is the fact that it hides the potential for a more serious Celtic train wreck.
That is that due to rigidly sticking to a strictly financially limited wages and signing policy, on the field Celtic are declining to an extent that if not checked, it will take multi millions of pounds to rectify.
bamboo
13:56 on
28 November, 2013
The Green Brigade were getting loads of praise after the Milan game . They created atmosphere ,they kept singing and chanting to the end and they seemed to have the goodwill of most if not all of the Celtic fans in my section.
No-one was talking about Tuesdays or Saturdays banner display . It wasnt an issue until……. some hurting hun grasses them into UEFA and suddenly everyone is on their case.
Football clubs have always had flags and banners that reflect their history and culture.
In this case they wernt exactly praising the IRA ,it was more that they were questioning hypocrosy and a flawed legislation
=================================================
bang on the money…
Hendrix 67- good point.
He should use that as the basis of his appeal.
To put the GB banner wording into context – the following is an extract from the 6 monthly downloads available from: http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/UEFACompDisCases
UEFA LEGAL DIVISION DISCIPLINARY AND INTEGRITY UNIT
Under Article 6(1) of the UEFA Disciplinary Regulations, member associations and clubs are responsible for the conduct of their players, officials, members, supporters and any other persons exercising a function at a match on behalf of the association or club. This rule also applies to 2012/13 UEFA Champions League matches, as expressly stated in paragraph 21.01 of the competition’s regulations.
This clause means that UEFA member associations and clubs are liable for any breach of the regulations by any person listed, even if the associations/clubs commit no fault themselves. This strict liability (objective or causal responsibility) is imposed on member associations and clubs for the actions of third parties who are, however, clearly identified. This rule leaves the UEFA Control and Disciplinary Body absolutely no room for manoeuvre as far as its application is concerned.
Member associations and clubs are answerable, even if they are not at fault, for the misconduct of their supporters. Clubs are automatically held responsible and can be punished once such misconduct has been established.
The list of European teams punished is extensive (Celtic are not alone) – cases relate to inappropriate wording (political and racial), symbols and use of pyrotechnics.
proudbhoy
14:33 on
28 November,
Nobody is more critical of the Board than I am.
However, can you quote chapter and verse when they said that ‘ ~
That all funds from transfers would be reinvested in the team’.
Not posted in an age… hello everyone.
Good article Paul. Such debates kind of drove me off internet forums, but today I was tempted to have a look. Not much change. It’s a shame.
Odd signs of progress and regression from Celtic this season. Is my brief take on the CL campaign. An interesting task for Neil Lennon, to fix this I mean.
Much as I enjoy Paul’s articles, I’m going to offer a wee contentious comment about the general Kris Commons love (not sure how this goes down with the readers) – I don’t like his play. 10% of his play is undeniably brilliant – the remaining 90% is almost uniformly dreadful. Among the worst decision makers I can recall playing for Celtic. I guess if the 10% happens at the right time, and in the right game it can be worth it. So, good on his day he might be, but, gives the ball away too often to be of much use as a number 10.
On a related note, is Ryan Gauld getting much play on here. I’d spend every penny of our budget on him – he’s going to be the best Scottish player in a couple of generations.
I remember Echo and his men back at the ole Burns’s Howff
– what a waste of mime and Bunny that was.
i think strictly speaking George Formby played the banjolele.
‘In 1946 Beryl and George toured South Africa shortly before formal racial apartheid was introduced, where they refused to play racially-segregated venues. According to Formby’s biographer, when George was cheered by a black audience after embracing a small black girl who had presented his wife with a box of chocolates, National Party leader Daniel François Malan (who later introduced apartheid) phoned to complain; Beryl replied “Why don’t you piss off, you horrible little man?” ‘
-lifted from Wiki/EWTB/EWLM.]
DBBIA/Mr Wu CSC
The banner debate is a brilliant distraction from our woeful performances in Europe this season.
Why everyone waxed lyrical about our glorious failure in Milan I will never know?
We hardly created a chance despite a lot of our usual meaningless possession.
On Tuesday our lack of a complete playing system created plenty of opportunities for an opponent who have struggled all season.
Our tactical failings are easy for opponents to decipher.
Against Barca our approach was a simple packed defense.Even though they were without the worlds best player we showed no ambition.
When teams have had success against Barca they used a higher pressing game we chose an 18 yard defensive stance.
Against Ajax at home we scrapped and got a fine result but it was a tough game as our flawed system allows opponents time and space.FF deserves a lot of credit for that result.
In Amsterdam we again showed no ambition and despite a heroic stand by Fraser and the defense the result was as expected.
Our coaching deficiencies are now stalling any progress of past years
Kojo
14:38 on
And you know what. Nobody appreciated how good he was until he was gone.
I used to fully support the Green Brigade but it’s becoming a distraction now, It doesn’t give me any pleasure in saying that either.
Celtic Park is for the football & getting behind the team on the park.
We all have our political opinions & Irish politics is intertwined with a large number of the Celtic support.
We have built up a great reputation as supporters over many years & it is starting to be questioned by the displays of the Green Brigade, political banners do not need to be openly displayed at Celtic park!
I am proud of our Irish roots & our culture & it should always be a source of pride.
A line has to be drawn tho when the club is starting to get fined & punished.
Celtic comes first! HH!
Bontybhoy
Long time no see!
Welcome back!
On the Green Brigade; sets me wondering, were any of the complainants on here ever young? For me the GB bring a welcome injection of verve and enthusiasm. Long may they continue to entertain and question all and sundry in their quest for perceived justice. So, sometimes they get it wrong. Not surprising in a group so young…….
To paraphrase Samuel Clemens- “When I was a bhoy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”
I have nephews involved with the GB and met (some of) their ‘comrades’ when I was back in Glasgow in August and September. We went with a crowd of them to a China Buffet King, they were excellent company, polite and well mannered, not a ned amongst them.
Compare and contrast with the ‘young team’ mentality and the loutish behaviour (of some) prevalent in and around the toilet and serving areas of the ground at half-time and (also) on public transport on the way to the game. Young bhoy aged about seven or so asks the crowd of teenagers bedecked in the colours ‘Hey guys are yez the Green Brigade?’ ‘Naw wur no we’re the mad mental Fleeto OK’. The seven year old’s Granda interjects with ‘No need to be so rude to the wee fella, he just wants to meet the GB’ ‘ Aye, well, f*ck em and f*ck you yan auld f*ckin’ walloper’ ……This exchange was then followed by the ritual of throwing chips and chicken bones randomly the length and breadth of the bus before they decided to get off three stops early but continued mouthing obscenities and ‘giving the Vicky’……..
Not an isolated incident, as have witnessed and got caught up in the fallout on a train on the way to the game when my other half was subjected to racist abuse from these cretins wearing the colours…… And we were in the company of a Celtic legend who wasn’t even recognized by this sizeable group of youthful miscreants purporting to be Celtic supporters.
I know whose company I prefer……..
Standing up for the Green Brigade and Celtic – More than a PLC
The words of Robert Zimmerman…………
May God bless and keep you always
May your wishes all come true
May you always do for others
And let others do for you
May you build a ladder to the stars
And climb on every rung
May you stay forever young
May you grow up to be righteous
May you grow up to be true
May you always know the truth
And see the lights surrounding you
May you always be courageous
Stand upright and be strong
May you stay forever young
May your hands always be busy
May your feet always be swift
May you have a strong foundation
When the winds of changes shift
May your heart always be joyful
And may your song always be sung
May you stay forever young
Regards & Hail Hail
TBM
masty is neil lennon and both of us are supporting wee oscar
14:32 on 28 November, 2013
—
Brillant post
I love me irish an irish rebel tunes and as a republican from derry also agree certain songs are not worth singing at football.
I was at 1 republican parade in glasgow and it sickened me that people were singing celtic songs.. No place for celtic songs at a republican march in my eyes.
However i think the GB were 100% correct to point out the hypocrisy, if the club.. Our club. Offered to defend our fellow fans being dragged to court for singing roll of honour type songs but in return asked the GB to to stop singing them maybe we could sort this.
It would show the club .. Our club, recognizes that there is no difference between sands and wallace but also show that the club prefer these songs are not sung.
Its all about compromise.. Similar to the poppy on our shirts. They stopped doing it and gave a donation (which sickens me ) instead. Despite it sickening me i can see compromise is sometimes needed.
The part the GB should play is instead of singing about bobby sands in a football ground, hold educational classes cause i know for a fact its badly needed amongst young celtic fans on who bobby was and what he was about, a soldier, poet and terrific song writer.
Then introduce these young lads and girls to henry joy, wolfetone and show them how protestants played a huge part in republicanism.
If the GB can do that and at same time rock parkhead with celtic songs they will gain massive support and a great legacy.
Sands was ahead of his time and fought a long term fight very smartly. Thats what should be followed
quonno
14:39 on 28 November, 2013
The real problem with the GB banner controversy is not potential fines or repercussions for the club.
It is the fact that it hides the potential for a more serious Celtic train wreck.
That is that due to rigidly sticking to a strictly financially limited wages and signing policy, on the field Celtic are declining to an extent that if not checked, it will take multi millions of pounds to rectify.
………………………………………………
That’s ok!
We’ve got millions!
Hooray!
Will PL have the bottle to ban them?
WallyWallace
13:55 on 28 November, 2013
‘Hugh MacDiarmid poet and visionary, medic in World War One, communist and co-founder of the Scottish National Party’
###
A man who rejoined the Communist Party after the Soviet Union invaded Hungary, an event which caused the best and brightest to leave the Party.
I’m not sure I’d be looking to him for any kind of political guidance.
Kojo,
Your first paragraph said it all… No creative midfield and relying on wingers that every team we play knows how to shut them down, kills any forward momentum we have.
Bontybhoy
Young Gauld getting a lot of positive press on here, but concensus is he may be out of our price range already as some big hitters in the EPL reportedly interested.
D Utd have also been reported as saying they want 6million for him.
Plus, neil disney play youngsters ,so not looking like a goer at this juncture.
I think Celtic not voting down resolution 12 is the root of all the recent trouble. That sent a signal all the way from G42 to Nyon.
Why did we stop boxing clever ?
Lack of information and trust ?
HH
proudbhoy
agree with every word mo chara…..bobby was a visionary way ahead of his time, and a hero in my eyes..”BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO HUNGER FOR JUSTICE”
Folly Folly
12:49 on
28 November, 2013
In a move designed to link your bulletin with the ongoing debate: maybe the Green Brigade could come up with a suitable banner to welcome Mo back to Paradise … ?
===================
In a move designed to link your post with the ongoing debate: maybe the Green Brigade could come up with this suitable banner to welcome Mo back to Paradise.
Send him homeward, Tae think again.
Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo
14:56 on
28 November, 2013
I think Celtic not voting down resolution 12 is the root of all the recent trouble. That sent a signal all the way from G42 to Nyon.
Why did we stop boxing clever ?
Lack of information and trust ?
===================================
total lack of trust on both sides….
quonno
14:43 on 28 November, 2013
proudbhoy
14:33 on
28 November,
Nobody is more critical of the Board than I am.
However, can you quote chapter and verse when they said that ‘ ~
That all funds from transfers would be reinvested in the team’.
—
I dont mate but 99% sure it was said and also that we would come out of every window stroger.
I may be wrong.
Im not really a board hater , hate speaking anything negative about celtic to be honest and argued with bhoys everywhere who would curse lenny after a draw or blame samaras out of 6/7 bad performers but theres no doubting we are being short changed.
If i quoted wrong it wont ruin my day but nearly sure i read them before.
Quonno
Pal..
So you Appreciated Neil’s Type of Mid Field Play?
Hmmmmmmmm
Anywey..
Wan Neil, In a Mid Field could be Tolerated..
But..
No.. THREE O’ THEM!
And that is How Neil , has Assembled oor Present Mid Field.
And .. Ah simply Canny Tolerate..
THREE NEIL’S.
Kojo
Still, Laughin
Up like a bird
14:32 on 28 November, 2013
Big nan
I have not got the ability to discuss your subject with you ,i am not that intelligent
But after reading what they are doing to hinder you ,you are batting it right back at them. Keep at it ,your the wee guy against the big guy and you are easily holding your own against them.
Good luck in your quest
HH
…………………………………
A lifetimes experience has taught me that people whose opening gambit is a self-deprecating remark, such as I’m not that clever, are usually the very opposite of what they claim.
I will though give them a run for their money if I can.
Thanks for the good wishes.
H.H.
Moonbeams WD. Kano 1000 \o/ Supporting Neil Lennon 100%. Champions. C’mon Wee Oscar.
13:44 on
28 November, 2013
Auldheid
Do you not think it is the fragmented nature of our support that has kepth the checks and balances on our club throughout the years. Speaking with one voice would lead to something akin to what the huns did to their club.
One of our biggest strenghts is the fragmented nature of our support as there is always someone to question any given issue.
MWD just my opinion.
++++++++++++++++++++
Nope. I think it is the fragmented way that the same issues are dealt with over a period of time where circumstances change from one meeting to another that not everyone is aware of and can misconstrue the meaning of that breeds mistrust and stops effective and meaningful communication.
Give me a sledge with all the huskies pulling in one direction and another where they are at war with each other and I’ll know which sledge to bet on in race.
masty is neil lennon and both of us are supporting wee oscar
14:56 on 28 November, 2013
proudbhoy
agree with every word mo chara…..bobby was a visionary way ahead of his time, and a hero in my eyes..”BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO HUNGER FOR JUSTICE”
—
Even went as far as getting some of his poetry printed on me back :-)
No regrets.
We all have more or less the same vision of what celtic should be about.. Hopefully it can be sorted.
The way republicanism is these days i keep away from it.. With celtic being run the way it is living wage, poppy donation etc i sometimes question should i even bother.
Then i see the work done by many for wee oscar, the dam 5 the 125charity and it restores the faith all over.
Republicanism has been defeated by divide and conquer, i just hope celtic dont go the same way.