Reading the CQN article on Stuart Armstrong this morning pulled the emotional strings. Stuart has made two starts in the league since moving, both of which ended in substitution, while Southampton are above the relegation places only on goal difference.
The club will doubtless throw money at their problems in January, which will do nothing for Stuart’s chances of more game time. That first glorious season under Brendan Rodgers at Celtic must seem a long time ago.
It took Stuart 18 months before his flame flickered here. For most of that period, it was Gary Mackay-Steven who looked the more promising player. Then everything clicked. Goals and assists arrived, as he became an integral part of the team. His form was good, but was never going to trouble one of the larger teams in England, so Southampton looked a wise move. The problem with all of these clubs, though, is they have a surplus of everything. And even as his time at Celtic expired, he was more of a squad player than automatic first choice.
Unless a manager is going to sit you down and tell you how you are going to change his life, the deal to sign you might not register too deeply with him. And even then, whoever makes the promises to you may well be moved on before you’ve had a chance to buy a house. With the news of Fulham changing manager this morning, Mark Hughes will know his time will be up soon if results don’t improve.
I can’t blame Stuart for going to Southampton. They did well by Victor, Fraser and Virgil and the money would have been fabulous. It was the right decision to make at that time. He is too professional to pause right now to reflect on what might have been had he extended his Celtic contract. For now, his focus will all be about getting into the Southampton team, but you’d better believe he will be used as a morality tale when Celtic have been busy with contract renewals this month.
“Go for a bit more money, sit on the bench until the manager is sacked, then sit in the stand. And win nothing.” We need players to be successful when they move on if we are to continue to get value when others leave, but the odd flop introduces a useful jeopardy into the decision to leave Celtic.
Pretty much every player at Celtic will know they could earn more money in England, but when they measure themselves against Stuart, few will be assured of a better outcome.
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corkcelt on 14th November 2018 5:42 pm
I post very rarely as it is I’m certainly not up for responding for others!!
Smiley thing.
Interesting article, Paul. Although I thought Stuart did pretty well in his first half season with us.
I’m sure Stuart would have looked at the success of Wanyama and Van Dijk at Southampton and probably thought it would be a good club for him to go to.
The difference being they went to Pocchettino and Koeman – two good coaches.
Stuart joined under Mark Hughes. I can’t think of a single player he has improved.
If they make a change soon they could go back to their previous model and Stuart could benefit. If they leave it any longer it’s much more likely to be a “keep them up” (eg Allardyce) type. That wouldn’t be at all good for him.
Stuart who???? Yawn yawn yawn
Christie’s miles better
KINGLuBO
hi bhoys on the stuart Armstrong debate ,he played well for us no problem with that, but like a lot of players money comes first, not that im decrying him for that everyone wants to earn more money and better themselves, but if he thought going to Southampton would get his profile better than playing for the famous Glasgow celtic, sorry Southampton does not come close, by the way how much would he have been on at celtic, maybe a rough guess 20 to 30 grand a week whats that 2 million a year, forgive my sums but that’s not bad money. how much money do these guys need to live on, why don’t they live in the shoes of people who have to rely on a food bank to keep them alive .sorry stuart no sympathy from me.hh.
jamesgang @ 2:16 pm
“PS next time anyone on here tells us amateurs to leave it to the football professionals, bear in mind we bought Cifti and played SA as the world’s most medium-paced left winger for 1 1/2 seasons!???”
&
traditionalist88 @ 2:22 pm
“Professionals know best didnt you know, and never ever make mistakes, nor should be questioned. Ever. And most certainly not on a football blog intended for discussion about football!”
I think there is a fundamental re-framing of the oppositional point going on here and it happens a lot. We all like to attack what we perceive to be a weak point in an argument by twisting it to mean something that it does not mean.
In this case:-
1) No-one has ever been daft enough to say don’t talk footbal on a fotball site or don’t post criticisms of professionals.
2) No-one has ever said that professionals do not make mistakes or are above criticism; we actually criticise and prosecute professionals in the Law, Education and Medicine who make serious errors or judgement or ignore their ethical codes of conduct., so football managers are fair game.
3) The fact that some criticism is justified and compelling does not mean that all opinion is compellling and justified. Some opinions are plain wrong and most are unevidenced, so they become assertions rather than disprovable hypotheses. And, as Hot Smoked is always asking “Why are all opinions entitled?”. There is a point whereby tolerance and open-mindedness becomes gullibility and suffering, if not fools, then foolish opinions.
4) We all, happy clapper or mineshafter or the 40 shades of green between, need to be held accountable to that. Our “opinions” have to be evaluated, debated, or ignored but they cannot all be afforded equal value. It is good to speak and to contribute but it is tiresome to contribute dross and tosh and it is hateful to contribute bigotry and prejudice.
5) The critical point that you sought to reduce to the absurdity that “professionals should not be criticised” was a much more serious point or points. Posters, including myself, were saying that we needed to show more humility about our football opinions because we have not walked the walk. We were responding to posters who alleged that their wives could manage better than the Celtic manager, who alleged that we never practised stuff because they could not see evidence of mastery of the skill, or who asked “If I can see it, why can the manager not?”.
It is a failure to see the wider picture which has to include the fact that the manager sees these players (the posters’ favourites and the scapegoats) 5 days a week or more while we tend to see them for 90 minutes only. It also has to include the admission that these people being criticised, the managers or the players, have had to go through a more rigorous recruitment and selection process than we did; they have had to fight their way into senior managerial positions or first team positions in a very competitive field (yes, even Jim Jeffries) by proving themselves at every step of the way. Most of us on here have no football management experience, not even at youth level. The few that do have it at youth or amateur or, at best, semi-pro level (they might have some competencies to aspire to reach senior level but they have not yet done so). The ones on here with experience of managing senior clubs can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Are there any who have experience of managing a club as massive as Celtic?
There is a case in point here on the careers of McGregor, Armstrong, Christie and (in Paul 67’s case) with Makay-Stevens where inconvenient facts are being ignored in order to justify retrospectively held opinions.
Callum has played defensive midfield on several occasions before in his Celtic career. He did not shine there, earlier on in his career but then he ws not shining as a winger and was only faring a little better when moved into central midfield. Callum has been showing great form as an attacker in the Rogic position for the past 18 months and he has transferred these skills and expeiences into an improved performance as a defensive midfielder in the past handful of games. He deserves consideration in either central midfield slot (defensive or attacking)as he is a better player than he was 2 years ago. He might even make a better fist as a winger these days, but, I personally think he is better suited to the hurly burly of central midfield. My point is that he is not to be just considered for the 2 defensive midfield slots in our 4:2:3:1 formation; if Ntcham and Brown are picked there ahead of him, he should still be considered alongside Rogic, Christie and others for the central attacking midfield slot too.
Stuart Armstrong was not mistakenly played as a left winger or left midfielder; he was accomodated there as he could not break through the established central midfield slots, where he had been tried but was not doing as well as the occupants. He was given a try at filling a left midfield slot which we had diffculty in filling until Scott Sinclair arrived over a year later. Just like Callum and James Forrest, he never shone there; but he remained a good player, played out of position who was not yet good enough to make central midfield his own. (yet, he kept the lightweight and insecure Makay Stevens out of that slot, and , Izzaguire, who I think might have filled it better).
Ryan Christie was not Celtic standard when we signed him but he had definite potential. He was not growing as a player while he languished in our reserves. Brendan gave him a lifeline in the loan to Aberdeen and Ryan really benefitted in his first 6 months there. From february to May last year his form with the Dons dipped (he was unused to a full season of playing since his ICT days) and most of us assumed he had failed his audition in not staying the course. Circumstances have recently given Ryan a last chance which he grabbed with both hands and is now confident enough to hold down a place. He will need to be because he will face challenges from other players looking to grab a chance (Mikey Johnston, Lewis Morgan, Nir Bitton and possibly Paddy Roberts or Nick Powell). Ryan has looked great these past 3 games but it is just 3 games. He has not nailed down a place yet but he is well worth his new contract as confidence and muscle have been added to his undoubted skill.
Finally, Makay Stevens. As I said above Gary did not outshine Stuart. In 3 and a half seasons, Stuart was selected on 15, 25, 31 and 27 occasions. Gary was selected on 13, 25 and 8. even taking 2015-16’s equal number of appearances into account, the best you can say is that they matched each others contribution but, in every other season Stuart surpassed Gary’s contribution. And Gary was being played in his preferred position and one where, this year, at last, he has added some consistency and end-product to his undoubted talent. There would still be a question mark, for me, as to whether he has a big club mentality. I have no doubt that Stuart does have this and, if Southampton do not provide him a chance, he will get picked up by some other bottom half Premiership/ top half Championship club.
Stuart was a top player for us,and a hunskelper too,some short memories on here,he could have walked last year and we would have got heehaw. Good luck to him, and would welcome him back someday.
Hello again all you young rebels,
Free Guinness, free Guinness.
Yes you heard right, free guinness for all Celtic club members
at our bash in the Re-Publican this coming Sun. between 2 and
3 o’clock with big Richie starting the singalong at 4.
What a deal from our hosts, so all you peninsula rebels get there
early for another great Celtic day.
Mind you it’s probably because PADDYMAC and the committee
are headed over to the Western Australia and Perth 30th anniversary
celebration this weekend, so there will be gallons of the stuff left 8-))
H.H Mick
okay come on haven’t seen tontine tim,on for a while likewise, weefra blantyretim jimmynotpaul saltires in sevilla, come on bhoys.hh.
SFTB, That was great read. Wish you would go through the rest of the squad. I could read that all night. Very good analysis.
BADA,
Dont think anyone is decrying Armstrongstimewith us.As I said earlier,everyone responding to another hack,taking a bit of Armstrongs press release or Southampton press conference,and making it a dig at Celtic.
MELBOURNEMICK
Free Guinness you say , oh how I wish i was there ! Enjoy your weekend mhate it sounds like a perfect way to spend a Sunday , hope you and your family are all well ! HH !!
Jamesgang,
Perhaps you could do the sames regards “Scrolling”.Think its called practicing what you preach.
MELBOURNE MICK on 14TH NOVEMBER 2018 7:54 PM
You have to ask yourself…………………….
How many pints of free Guinness can you drink in a chunder free hour .
I feel there may be a competition in there somewhere for an enterprising organiser.
Glad you didn`t announce this earlier or BMCUW might have planed it over for a share of the freebies.
Genuine question, what has happened to BMCUW?
A wee bit surprised that kev,or is it kevj got his cheap shot at BMCUWPS onto the blog without much criticism especially as the the man can’t answer back?
Must have pissed you right af that cheech to your Chong did end up having a good day at the hoot.?????????
PARK RD/MACJAY1
Think if i try for the record amount of Guinness drank in a hour
i will i get in the Guinness book of records?
These publicans value our Celtic patronage so much, they worry
we go elsewhere as loads of other pubs have tried to lure us
away.
But no we are faithful through and through, another pint please.
On another point, isn’t it wonderful that we have our committee
and loads of other fans from all over going to the other side of
the continent to support another Celtic club.
Shows you how strong the connection between fans and club are
here in Oz and probably the rest of the world.
H.H Mick
BILLYBEAR ,he was given a red card, don’t no why but would love to have him back, definitely a good ghuy.hh.
I thought stretch just said he didn’t miss playing in the spfl,now I don’t want accused of reading his mind ???
BIG PACKY
Yes, your right about BMCUW, he was very helpful to a lot of us
on here, i’m sure PAUL 67’s ear has been bent on the situation
so maybe we should just let things run there course and we’ll
see what happens.
H.H Mick
I’m looking for a spare for the Hamilton away game for an elderly pal of mine. He’s going over for the AGM and will be staying in Scotland until the weekend. If anyone can help I would appreciate it.
MELBOURNE MICK. love your posts yes agree, just love the guy he helped me through a bad time would love to see him back ?
Billybear, BMCUWP is over on Sentinelcelts. Majoc is his moniker.
Hope Bobby comes back here, he was the go to guy on here for many. There is room for both sites and it is possible to be active on both. I know he still holds Paul67 in some regard so maybe they can fix things out.
MELBOURNE MICK on 14TH NOVEMBER 2018 8:28 PM
The universal Tim who left Scotland but didn`t leave Celtic .
And whose children have swelled the numbers of Celtic supporters .
I share your joy.
Melbourne Mick,
Hope you are all well in the Peninsula. Free Guinness, sounds like a plan. Copied to my brother! HH
No wonder fitba’s corrupt….
Country Ranked 8th in the world…. 0 v Country Ranked 96th in the world 1….
Guess who’s controversially hosting a WC shortly???? (96)
Guess who hosts the corrupt ORGANISATION for WC’s (8)
CALTONTONGUES on 14TH NOVEMBER 2018 10:09 PM
Love your cynicism.
Wonder how Sepp`s doing .
And Michel.
MELBOURNE MICK on 14TH NOVEMBER 2018 7:54 PM
Could you ask PADDYMAC to ask about Brian Beattie in the Perth CFC, I lost contact with him.
Good chance I’ll be over next year to see my other nephew and family. HH☘☘☘
MACJAY1 FOR NEIL LENNON on 14TH NOVEMBER 2018 10:17 PM,
It’s like polishing a Sevco turd (Qatar) to make them relevant, next they’ll be at Wembelee :-)
As for Sepp & Michel, they’ll be fine, I heard the Bastille is 5 Star nowadays :-)))
CALTONTONGUES on 14TH NOVEMBER 2018 10:22 PM
The issue with Qatar is simple.
FIFA didn`t feel the need to disguise the fact that the decision to appoint Qatar was a ludicrous one.
Such was the level of the confidence of the Star Chamber.
Sure , it looks dodgy , but we don`t give a damn.
We can be sure that this mentality filters down to our own wee free cabal.
Brian Glanville. The man.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1979/08/22/soccer-bribes-not-uncommon/40364677-f309-4123-aaf9-ffb8842776f5/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e8fb85ec8f50
Almore,
Hamilton Accies ticket office opens on Saturday morning at 10.00 for tickets for the Celtic game.
They will most probably be for seats in the main Hamilton stand.
If you wish I will try to get a couple of tickets on Saturday morning for you if I can. ( I live in Hamilton)
You can take your friend to the game or I will.
Please advise if you want me to go ahead.
Eurochamps67
EC- well played that man .
Almore,
Might be duff information as Accies website now saying sold out.
I will go down tomorrow morning to enquire at the ground.
Eurochamps67
Sipsini.Hi mate. I rang the President of the Perth club to see if he knew your pal. Brians Number is +61 424798171 keep well and I hope you manage to contact him. Melbourne Mick. My phone has been running hot this morning.Is it true your in front of a Q. To make sure you get in to the RePublican for free pints of Guinness on Sunday. I hope you all have great day. I’ll be thinking of you all while we are getting hammered at The Charlie and The Bhoys gig.I received a photo on FB with Big Hartson and the Bhoys having a pint before leaving on their 24 hour flight out to Perth. As you know I very seldom post but I would like to add if it means anything. PLEASE get BOBBY BACK. HAIL HAIL from Paddy
Looking for some info, will be in Marriott Phukket Beach Resort Thailand for the Cup Final on Dec 2ndlooking for a bar/hotel to watch it,also spending some time in Singapore, where do the Sing Tims meet now? Will be in Sydney 4th -9th Dec Celtic bars there? In Mornington !3th – 18th Dec hope to meet up with Melbourne Mick and Paddymacoz there. Almore in Dublin all day on Monday 19th and overnight could meet up for a beer, staying at the Raddisson at the airport. Wuod welcome any info on places of interest, restaurants,bars etc in Singapore Phukket Sydney Melbourne and Kuala Lumpur. Hail Hail Hebcelt Part one of trip of a lifetime CSC
Almore that’s next Monday Nov 19th!!! H H
Hebcelt
Cheers is the bar in Sydney for the games.
HH
HUNDERBIRDS ARE GONE on 14TH NOVEMBER 2018 9:35 AM
BBC carrying a report today that all twenty Premier League clubs are being asked to make a £250,000 contribution, so that outgoing Chief Executive Richard Scudamore can be given a £5m “farewell gift”. The clubs have already been asked if they will agree to the Chelsea Chairman’s request, and all are expected to say yes.
Scudamore is reportedly paid £2.5m a year, and has worked 19 years with the Premier League.
This report is the perfect metaphor for the modern disconnect of the people’s game from it’s traditional working class roots… imho.
—————-
Another example is Chelsea’s new stadium which is set to have more than 30% of it’s capacity set aside for the prawn sandwich brigade. Imagine the atmosphere in a stadium like that, no thanks.
The Qatar WC is an abomination imo.If current trends continue it’s estimated that there will be 4000 plus deaths in the construction of their stadiums. I’ve watched every WC with interest since I was seven years old, I won’t watch a single bit of that tournament . It’s an absolute disgrace what’s happening over there.
Ok , I’ll get down off my soapbox now :)))
HH