Today our parliament will go through the motions of debating how to criminalise football fans in innovative new ways, not related to prejudice, with the outcome preordained; the Bill will become law. The lines have been drawn on this debate and the country is set for a long and messy campaign.
The various calls for clarification are unlikely to be satisfied as consistency on this subject will be impossible to find. At Celtic, direct or indirect references to the IRA, already deemed unacceptable by the club, manager and most of the support, are likely to lead to prosecution. I would like to see political references removed from football but not at the cost of random criminalisation. It remains to be seen how successful attempts to prosecute fans for transgressing on this subject before the law has been passed will be.
Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.
Football is going to get messy in the months ahead as positions are so entrenched in ‘the songs debate’ there is simply no possibility of agreement. While it may only be a small minority who want to continue political chanting at Celtic, they remain Celtic fans and as entitled to establish their rights as anyone else, including Neil Lennon or Jock Stein. All we can do, as a club and support, is look for common ground amid the turmoil that lies ahead.
Today is your last chance to buy Paul Larkin’s new book, Wim’s Tims-The best thing to hit Scottish football in 10 years, with a 25% discount. Enter code: COUNTDOWN to qualify.
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Well just incase you think the loonies took over the asylum….. they have.
How a bumbling half wit like Corrigan and a jumped up PR man like Salmond can get away with this in 2011 is ASTOUNDING.
Offensive behaviour,???? That mob are offended by anything, they cant even have green and white straws or green peparamis at their ground kiosks ffs.
Offence my a**e.
It should just be called The SHUT UP TIMMY BILL 2011.
Will I still be allowed to wear my green Che Guevara t shirt to the fitba.??? I know its not much to do with Celtic but hell I like the T Shirt….
I was called a Fenian , Commie B*****d on the way to hampden by a hun last cup final…
You know the one with all the joyous signing???
He was obviously offended by my t shirt.
What was the offence??? To me he was the more offensive.
This is a farce. Dark ol days gone by right enough.
Why dont they just cherry off the cream and build specific prisons to keep us in.
It may have been diluted in some quarters by some quarters over the years but to me Celtic will always be a source for social, historical and cultural expression.
Hell it was formed around those very things.
Give it up at your peril.
Theyve tried the flag one before, couldnt do it, it took them a bit of time, thats cause theyre lazy incompetent B*******S, but they got there in the end.
NO MORE is what their message is.
The fight must continue…….
“OH FATHER WHY ARE YOU SO SAD…………………………….”
POM
Oh and as for Celtics good name the board have already destroyed that, pished the bed and blamed he blankets.
Paul
Excuse me, in my post directed at you I said CQN is a daily etc… Of course I meant some of the posts, and even then you may not agree, but it wasn’t a slight on what provide or your contribution.
From previous:
jimmci says:
14 December, 2011 at 10:25
When I was married my (now ex)missus worked with some italians who recommended: http://www.solealpantheonrome.com/overview.html
We really enjoyed location and ambiance….
BontyBhoy 14:46 – if drunken teenage boys sing BOTOB outside the vicinity of the football ground, they won’t be affected by the new legislation – but maybe the old, previuosly unenforced laws will get a new lease of life…. THAT is now my concern.
Mort
The bit about not getting a new original names was a joke, but if they did get a brand new name there wouldn’t be a problem. I acknowledge that some members of the original IRA where founding members of the PIRA, but they had been inactive for over 30 years, it was a totally different organisation. A new name would have been more appropriate.
Still feeding the monkey I see
Apologies if this has already been posted….link to live debate
http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/scotland/newsid_8167000/8167433.stm
Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire says:
14 December, 2011 at 14:55
Oh and as for Celtics good name the board have already destroyed that, pished the bed and blamed he blankets.
…………………….
Are you saying the fans singing about the IRA are blameless as the Board allowed them into the stadium in the first place.
Thats like saying its your own fault if you got shot because you walked in front of the gun as it was being fired!
Will you be in danger of arrestment if you mime the addons that are now banned. Aggressive miming of “ooh aah up the ra” would look very damning on cctv afterall.
I am tired of repeating my own position regarding what is not acceptable to sing at Celtic Park as a precursor to making comment on the vexed question of what we can sing at Celtic Park but here goes again just for the record: I don’t think we should sing anything that mentions the IRA.
In fact I don’t think that Irish Republican songs whether they mention the IRA or not should be sung within the football grounds where Celtic play.
The reason why I think this way is because I think that as an inclusive club we should be welcoming to all from the Protestant Scot serving in the British Army to the RC, ex-Irish Republican Army member/supporter from the Bogside in Derry.
The IRA anthems might be as unacceptable to the former as the poppy on the strip would be to the latter.
To me there are enough songs that celebrate our Irish heritage and the club’s past support for a United Ireland without singing about the IRA.
But my views are subjective and I am prepared to listen to the views of other supporters and last but not least the club to be persuaded otherwise.
One thing is sure beyond a question of doubt and that is we Celtic supporters need to establish what we collectively consider as being the acceptable repertoire of songs to sing.
Having done this then we must adhere to the list of “approved songs” and defend those who are charged under the new law when it comes into force….because there will be charges brought.
Just as my view of what songs might be offensive and should not be sung the police officer who determines what is an offensive crime under the new bill will also be subjective.
As someone pointed out earlier we know what Eddie Smith thinks is offensive (add on in Celtic Symphony) and we also know what A.C.C. Campbell Corrigan and Justice Secretary, Kenny MacAskill think is not offensive (The Billy Boys, Famine Song, FTP etc.). So we would be foolish to think that we will be treated fairly under the new law.
The law is aimed at us by those in the police and government who wish to even-up the score on offences that in the main are committed against us.
Neither Celtic Football Club nor the Government will list the songs to sing and the songs not to sing so I reckon it is up to us the Celtic support to do it for ourselves—and then support those who are arrested and charged for singing what we as a support approve.
Who will decide what the Celtic support has as “approved songs”?
There can never be a perfect solution to include all fans but I think that a conference hosted by an honest broker, such as the Celtic Trust, with attendees from the Celtic supporters organisations and all shareholders and season ticket holder could be organised to do this.
We have to be ready for this law and this is the way to do it, in my humble opinion of course.
Greenjedi,
If only you were able to understand the difference between “were” and “where”, it would make it easier to ignore your apologist, ill-informed, drivel.
TBGATB
Modren aggressive miming of “ooh aah up the ra” is rubbish
DBBIA/Marcel Marceau CSC.
Nice to see so many Celtic fans taken in by the Laptop Loyal/SNP propaganda machine.
You would think every home game 40000 stand on their seats belting out I-R-A for 90 minutes.
About 200 fans went Ooh Aah Up The Ra!
That was it, that is all there has been for going on 5 years…
Getting our house in order, what a load of s**te…
Another stick to beat us with. Well it’s nice to know when your own board, these parasites whose elephantine wages i contribute too, stick up for their own support. Until Lawell is gone, i will not set foot in Parkhead.
Tootingtim
Did you get my responses?
As copied from my Facebook page;
I have to say, the Rangers Tax Case website has grown from being one where you wait patiently for a new blog post and then go and read it, to being one, like CQN, where you have to tune in every day to read the comments. Go longer than 24 hours and you miss things. The highlights from the last 2 days are just extraordinary, and bear looking over.
1) There are three Craig Whyte’s registered with Companies House, two of which have the same name but different birthdays and the other who shares a birth year but who’s name is spelled White.
2) The Craig Whyte born in 1969 was involved in numerous businesses with people who subsequently went into business with Craig Whyte 1971.
3) The Craig White, also born in 1971, has also been involved in numerous business transactions with people linked to Craig Whyte 1971, who is the one who owns Rangers.
4) A search of the birth records reveals only one Craig Whyte registered as born in Scotland in 1969. He is from Perth and appears to have no connection with the business activities listed above. He is a married, and his marriage certificate proves he is not the Craig Whyte who owns RFC.
6) Craig Whyte’s “billionaire” residence in Monaco, as listed on his own marriage certificate, appears to be a bog-standard residential block of flats overlooking a road. A yacht cleaning company and a company called – are you ready for this? – Vatican Museums also operate out of the same building. This is more akin to a rental unit than a palatial home.
7) People who know his former wife suggest she or someone close to her may be just about ready to talk, because, and are you waiting for THIS one, he is claiming to her divorce lawyers that he is SKINT.
8) Yesterday in court, he claimed Tixaway does not owe money to One Stop Roofing, and that actually a company called Snowcast does. He thereby claimed no liability for the debt to One Stop Roofing. However, the diggers on RTC have found a Change of Address form for Snowcast, where the Company Secretary is listed as Liberty Capital, which, of course, is owned by Craig Whyte … and it is Craig Whyte’s signature on the Change of Address form.
9) Another signed document from Tixaway appears to bear the signature of Whyte and is dated during his directorship ban.
10) He registered Tixaway to an address in London where, according to publicly accessible records, he has never lived.
11) There does appear to be a thread suggesting Craig Whyte 1971 and Craig White 1971 are the same person, although to Company House records they are different people. It might seem tenuous, but could prove hugely important when One Stop’s lawyer gets him back on the stand … When Whyte applied for planning permission to renovate Castle Grant, the very renovation which is the subject of One Stop Roofing’s legal claim, he didn’t spell his name Whyte … he spelled it White.
And it goes on and on and on and on …. Incredible.
Dontbrattbakkinanger says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:08
2 legends.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=en-GB&client=mv-google&v=-PMDYjD21E0
One Club – One Cause.
Leave out the agendas and support the club.
The alternative is bye bye Celtic.
This generation has the potential to take the club onwards or to destroy it.
Think on, comrades.
The big guy at the back….of Neil Lennon says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:07
Greenjedi,
If only you were able to understand the difference between “were” and “where”, it would make it easier to ignore your apologist, ill-informed, drivel.
TBGATB
…………
A spelling mistake, is that all you can come back to me with?
greenjedi,
I’m saying arseholes like you have made it easy for the huns to squeal what aboutery, the line in the song the board requested the fine for, does not promote terrorism, arseholes like you and the rest of the middle class boorish bigots on here have been trying to force your sanitised thinking on the rest of the support.
Up till now I have never sang nor encouraged anyone to sing any songs mentioning the IRA, after reading the pish you clownshave been promoting I will no longer ask for restraint.
James Forrest is Lennon says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:14
I see there’s also a suggestion that the reaon he was banned as a company director may be because one of his companies was trading while insolvent.
thomthethim says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:19
One Club – One Cause.
Leave out the agendas and support the club.
The alternative is bye bye Celtic.
This generation has the potential to take the club onwards or to destroy it.
Think on, comrades.
…………..
Thom its like the Judgement of Solomon, the real fans will want no harm to come to the club, the others will say “It shall be neither mine nor yours—divide it!”
Polite note to CQN
Off home now
Hail Hail
thomthethim says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:19
‘This generation has the potential to take the club onwards or to destroy it.’
The people who have the power to destroy the Club in the near future are the Celtic board, by being involved in any scheme that would allow a newco huns straight into the SPL.
Dearie me.
Some rampant nonsense being spouted on here today but folks who normally show a calm head!
Reactions such as in the last couple of posts show intolerance to our own which is what really makes it easy for those who seek to divide our brilliant support.
greenjedi at 14:56
The bit about not getting a new original names was a joke, but if they did get a brand new name there wouldn’t be a problem. I acknowledge that some members of the original IRA where founding members of the PIRA, but they had been inactive for over 30 years, it was a totally different organisation. A new name would have been more appropriate.
Not true. There were a number of campaigns against the British and Irish during the 40s and 50s but the IRA was left weakened by most of these. It was only when the civil rights campaign took off did the IRA (now in the guise of Provisional IRA) regain the strength needed to fight a prolonged campaign.
None of this at all should have any relevance to Celtic Football Club however because singing songs at a football match is in no way going to advance the cause of a united Ireland.
Mort
Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:21
greenjedi,
I’m saying arseholes like you have made it easy for the huns to squeal what aboutery, the line in the song the board requested the fine for, does not promote terrorism, arseholes like you and the rest of the middle class boorish bigots on here have been trying to force your sanitised thinking on the rest of the support.
Up till now I have never sang nor encouraged anyone to sing any songs mentioning the IRA, after reading the pish you clownshave been promoting I will no longer ask for restraint.
…………………
LOL
I go to see Celtic, I sing Celtic songs, I sing the new songs that have been introduced such as JCGE. I used to sing songs about the IRA and the like, but that was a long time ago when I was young and daft. I’m an adult now and can tell the difference between right and wrong. Mibbie when you grow up you’ll do the same.
ernie lynch at 15:22
I see there’s also a suggestion that the reaon he was banned as a company director may be because one of his companies was trading while insolvent.
Aye but he doesn’t remember if that’s why he was disqualified. I think I would remember something like that.
I suppose it could be that he was done for so many breachs of directors duties, he’s unsure which specific one was applied.
Mort
Big Swee…,
the support are now divided exactly the strategy the board played, no good blaming supportes, supporters do ot make the rules, however when the rules are unfair they are made to be broken, simple as that.
Just reading about the FAC protest being denied entry into the parliament, something which I believe we all have a right to do in a democracy?
Welcome to Salmond’s Scotland.
greenjadi,
your swastika will look good on your scarf.
James Forrest, absolutely fascinating what a bit of digging around can through up. You would think some “journalists” would’ve interested in all of this!
To paraphrase hank to Gus….. “is Craig whyte your real name”
SffS
greenjedi says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:28
Are you insinuating that the IRA were daft? I wouldn’t say you’d have the cojones to say that if they were active today. I’ve seen your like before. Away and hide under your mothers coat.
Mort (Kano 1000) says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:30
‘Aye but he doesn’t remember if that’s why he was disqualified’
He’s left himself wide open with that one when it does finally come out why he was disqualified (which is bound to happen).
And still no word of the defamation action.
No divide for me. Our support is by far and away the best in Scotland and our club open to anyone who wants to follow the Hoops.
Scatter-gun statements don’t help. Opinions are subjective and that is why as a support we need to come together and protect each other whilst showing an understanding of the wide range of views each of our supporters has.
And David Prowse, your post sums it up. Nowhere in the post does it suggest such. I suggest re-reading the entry and then provide a more informed response.
The point about this legislation isn’t now the songs debate; they are taking a hammer to a nut.
If you say “Well hey it was a crap nut anyway, hammer away”, what will they do next?
Still listening to the debate on the BBC site. Some really well informed points which sadly will no doubt be ignored. I have even heard a Tory make sense :o)
Paul67
‘I would like to see political references removed from football’
We are a Club that’s had Michael Davitt as a patron and De Valera present a Tricolour (both incidentally, in their day, convicted terrorists, though that’s beside the point).
We are one of a select group of clubs around the world that have always had a political dimension, and we’re the richer for it.