Today our parliament will go through the motions of debating how to criminalise football fans in innovative new ways, not related to prejudice, with the outcome preordained; the Bill will become law. The lines have been drawn on this debate and the country is set for a long and messy campaign.
The various calls for clarification are unlikely to be satisfied as consistency on this subject will be impossible to find. At Celtic, direct or indirect references to the IRA, already deemed unacceptable by the club, manager and most of the support, are likely to lead to prosecution. I would like to see political references removed from football but not at the cost of random criminalisation. It remains to be seen how successful attempts to prosecute fans for transgressing on this subject before the law has been passed will be.
Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.
Football is going to get messy in the months ahead as positions are so entrenched in ‘the songs debate’ there is simply no possibility of agreement. While it may only be a small minority who want to continue political chanting at Celtic, they remain Celtic fans and as entitled to establish their rights as anyone else, including Neil Lennon or Jock Stein. All we can do, as a club and support, is look for common ground amid the turmoil that lies ahead.
Today is your last chance to buy Paul Larkin’s new book, Wim’s Tims-The best thing to hit Scottish football in 10 years, with a 25% discount. Enter code: COUNTDOWN to qualify.
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I really can’t see any way out of this quagmire.
Personally – singing IRA add ons – or indeed any song which mentions the IRA – at Celtic Park or anywhere else is a non starter. I don’t believe its a suitable way to celebrate Irishness or indeed honour those volunteers, most of whom would not be seen dead at Celtic Park anyway. When I see the tricolour flying on match day, when I hear the crowd singing the fields and when I see ferries crowded ithe buses and vans carrying Irish fans to Glasgow – well that is enough for me. I just feel so proud.
One day several years ago I sat quite near to Pierre van Hoijdoink’s family in the North Stand. Pierre had left the club several – many years earlier – but Glasgow Celtic Football Club had made sufficient an impression on him that his family felt enough to take a game in while they were holidaying. That made me feel wonderful. On match days you can see peoples from all over the world come to CP to experience the matchday atmosphere. Many become because fellow country men once played for the club. From Swede, Japan, Denmark, Holland, Germany – all over the world. Other come because they have read about the famous Glasgow Celtic. That makes me feel wonderful. Wonderful because a group of Irish Catholics founded this great club. I just feel so amazingly, outrageously proud.
I’m proud of the Irish origins of the club. But not so proud that I want to push my Irishness down others’ throats.
I’m proud of the Catholic origins of the club. But not so proud that I would ever do anything that would dissuade any other person from any walk of life from coming to Celtic Park.
I’m proud of my Irish Republican background. And I’m proud enough not to shout it from the terraces of Celtic Park.
Enough’s enough everyone.
53
Big Swee walks on with Neil Lennon says:
14 December, 2011 at 14:41
You claim that there is no debate that could make the claim that the Tricolour and The Soldier’s Song are offensive.
Sadly, that’s incorrect, there are many who will make such a claim. The Famine Song is sung to support this bigotry.
Big Swee walks on with Neil Lennon says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:39
” I used to sing songs about the IRA and the like, but that was a long time ago when I was young and daft”
So by the rational of ”being young and daft” and ”singing song about the IRA” would bring somebody with a modicum of education to the conclusion that it was a daft thing to do.
I suggest you go and make yourself a cup of tea before you are made to look like a bigger fool than you already are.
Well made points in your post Lurgan 53
The cynical will note the timing of UEFA’s fine to Celtic is just in time to be mentioned in today’s debate in the ole even-handed whatabouttery manner by the debating legislators.
Thanks for the link paddysmarket:)
The idea of the State- the huge, clumsy mechanism that is central Government- legislating to define “offensiveness” is just totally absurd. It’s Python-esque. Taking offence is a subjective emotion. Often the taker of offence tends to be more prejudiced than the “offender”
Next up: Legislation to stamp out people being made to feel a bit grumpy. Or sad. Or anxious.
Big swee..,
and when Celtic supporters start reporting each other for offensive behaviour, will that unite us further ??
And when the board choose their next victim and the usual bumbaring bigots on here spend all their time promoting so called reasonable argument to banish another set of supporters, I’m sure you’ll still be babbling on about the best united support eh.
David Prowse…..nice try.
I responded to your point that greenjedi was saying the IRA were daft. He didn’t. I am already enjoying a cup of tea and would welcome your view as to how I am a fool when you simply have no clue who I am other than a Celtic supporter who has an opinion that we as a support should stick together in the face of a direct assault on our club and it’s support that is government and media led.
Just got this in an email
Can you imagine working for a company that only has a little more than 635 employees, but, has the following employee statistics..
29 have been accused of spouse abuse
7 have been arrested for fraud
9 have been accused of writing bad cheques
17 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
3 have done time for assault
71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
8 have been arrested for shoplifting
21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
84 have been arrested for drink driving in the last year
and collectively, this year alone, they have cost the British tax payer £92,993,748 in
expenses!!!
Which organisation is this?
It’s the 635 members of the House of Commons.
The same group that cranks out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line.
What a bunch of crooks we have running our country
– it says it all…
And just to top all that they probably have the best ‘corporate’ pension scheme in the country – whilst trying to ensure that everyone else has the worst possible!!
If you agree that this is an appalling state of affairs, please pass it on to everyone you know
HH
NCLHE. (apologies for shortening)
I see no reason why we should feel the need to report another of our own for signing a song. I would certainly not be offended with any of our current songbook. I respect others views and their right to act as they see fit as long as they accept responsibility for their behaviour.
The board as you point out have a responsibility to the club and it’s support and in that I find them lacking. They, in my humble opinion, have failed the support in this case and should have pushed back at UEFA.
Lurgan53
Quagmire it is. And the leader article says Paul would prefer we left the politics out, but some Celtic fans say we’re a political entity which can no more leave out the politics as leave out the football.
I’ve a different perspective from you, I imagine. However, as a Celtic fan we can identify with each other… to the extent that I think your sign off;
‘I’m proud of my Irish Republican background. And I’m proud enough not to shout it from the terraces of Celtic Park. ‘
It’s just about the best thing written on here today.
I think there must be a line in the sand, where we can as Celtic fans enjoy debate and the spectacular culture of diversity of creed, religion, and opinion that we have, rather than stepping over the line into boycotts, fall-outs and court cases.
When we go to Celtic Park or don the hoops at the 5’s it should always be with the same sense of pride you express, and to obtain that we need to earn that and take on the responsibility. I’m wondering if our aspirations now outstrip a modern reality… modern aspiratons are rubbish, or is that modern reality is rubbish…
FACKilltheBill FAC
FAC protesters now leaving Parliament after being refused access to see the SNP criminalise us with their anti-Football Bill. #SNPShameonyou
35 minutes ago
FACKilltheBill FAC
Only the intervention of Hugh Henry allowed the media access to FAC. According to MSPs, Roseanna Cunningham asked security to remove us.
44 minutes ago
FACKilltheBill FAC
Media in with FAC protesters in committee room just now – stunned at the SNP’s latest attack on football fans. pic.twitter.com/UlRSvq7J
1 hour ago
FACKilltheBill FAC
BBC Scotland now prevented from entering committee room FAC are being held in. The SNP don’t want to let football fans have a voice.
1 hour ago
FACKilltheBill FAC
#SNPShameonyou yfrog.us/5uyirz
1 hour ago
FACKilltheBill FAC
pic.twitter.com/0SsUFRMC
1 hour ago
FACKilltheBill FAC
Fans kept in committee room – the message they didn’t want to hear. yfrog.us/eluvpz
1 hour ago
FACKilltheBill FAC
Fans prevented from entering Parliament today wearing t-shirts saying ‘fans not criminals’ by the SNP government. No free speech for fans.
1 hour ago
FACKilltheBill FAC
Possible pickups in Port Glasgow and Paisley for anyone looking to get on the FAC bus tomorrow – email to enquire.
13 Dec
FACKilltheBill FAC
The Scottish Law Reporter on the destroyed data (and police and PF sectarianism): scottishlaw.blogspot.com/2011/12/hate-d…
12 Dec
Blimey! Now we have direct qoutes attributed to Cicero
BBC. Bring Back Cicero
Big Swee walks on with Neil Lennon says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:48
See post:
David Prowse says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:43
I can’t make it any clearer than that, if you can’t grasp whats written in plain English…..well, that’s no fault of mine.
Maybe we should get rid of the Green Brigade / The Boys of the Old Brigade and get the Prawn Sandwich Brigade into the section in it’s place. Then again, these days Parkhead seems to be full of the middle class Prawn munching brigade.
Scottish Nazi Party
Big Nan says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:05
Both the CSA and CST will have an interest in talking to Celtic and providing guidance to the support from within the support. I think I saw a reference from the CSA that this might be a step. There already have been steps in that direction using “consultants” (for want of lack of memory about who was actually involved.)to identify what is likely to cause problems. This might need revisited in light of the OB Bill and recent events.
You make reference to the TBBs and TFS being acceptable to certain individuals in power but that does not make it acceptable, quite the reverse. We have both “campaigned” against TFS and know the score but that campaign must continue PARTICULARLY in view of the OB bill.
I suggested earlier that police be required to publsh once a week details of arrests at games under the OB. That should be further reinforced by having a named officer responsible for answering questions about why arrests were made and JUST AS IMPORTANT, why none were made.
It seems to have become accepted by drift that TBBs and TFS are somehow now OK. In fact the new bill makes it even more important that this is seen not to be so and visiible evidence of equivalence should be part of what we as a support demand to give us some assurance this bill will not be a one edged sword.
Time for me to log off now as out for more Chrismas shopping.
No axe to grind with any of you folks on here so wishing you a good evening, or whatever time of day it is in your location.
Hail Hail.
watching the debate, and yes there is some good points made against it …….
but jeese oh, they aint a handsome bunch are they, our MSP’s.
Can anyone clarify if the game is on ESPN tomorrow nite?
Lurgan 53 at 15:41
Eloquent as usual sir. You are absolutely spot on.
Mort
David,
I don’t believe we should look to outlaw or ostracise any Celtic Supporter and the board should be taking a stronger stance to ensure that the media, government and police are not allowed to do so either.
They are the real guilty party in this by failing to address a national problem that has existed well beyond any song sung by our support.
Really need to go but welcome any discussion.
Hail Hail.
‘Titles are ephemeral. What matters in football is the passion, regardless of conquests.’
A direct quote from the late, great Socrates.
This is bigger than football. Welcome to the Official Anti-Irish Zone, where expression of ones Irish identity in a fashion in which you might choose to in any other country in the world renders you both a criminal and a second class citizen in this one.
I love Celtic, but I don’t agree that compromising ones human rights to make things easier for the greater good of the club is the wise option. As I would have absolutely no dilemma in ceasing to contribute directly to the club. The PLC would probably say “So what! He doesn’t have a season ticket.” As it is, the PLC will get nowt out from me in any other way and I will advise any Tim I meet to do likewise.
gallagher
it’s baloney mate.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/mar/20/mpsincorruptionshocker
Hail, hail
PaddyBhoy says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:57
Can anyone clarify if the game is on ESPN tomorrow nite?
yes 8pm
Canalamar – I assume you are using a derogatory term for us Scots when you (again) use the term bum-baring? Don’t be such a hypocrite. BTW You didn’t get back to me on the question about tomorrow – never heard of the place you mentioned previously – can you clarify location?
David Prowse (an English body builder?) – it’s not Lawwell or the current board that started this it was mcCann FIFTEEN YEARS AGO – we can hardly say we had no warning…
As I posted elsewhere:
The reality is a campaign by Celtic fans opened the pandora’s box about singing. Rightly or wrongly (and God knows it’s been done to death) some Celtic fans have been singing these songs for years. We have been looked at before on this subject and UEFA have not found us guilty.
What changed? STRATHCLYDE POLICE reported the Celtic fans to UEFA (whilst taking no action themselves). How can UEFA ingnore a Police accusation? And tbh the club were never going to appeal because they want supporters to see the harm they are doing to the club – somethign the club has warned again and again about.
What got us here? As I see it, it is DEFNITELY “whatabootery”. Basically we had a pop at them about The Famine Song, and to a lesser extent the BB, and guess what the establishment (politicians & polis) rounds on us and won’t rest until they “even up” things to use the words of the Convenor of the Parliament’s Justice Committee and MSP for Scotland’s ruling party.
Now they have a precedent they can point to, look for the fast track treatment for their “offensive words by supporters wearing green and white” bill.
For the record: I don’t sing certain songs at Celtic Park because the club have asked me not to. I have been on blogs and boards saying we will get busted unless we play it smarter. Our club and our fans hard won reputation is now tarnished because some fans couldn’t do that.
And so the Civil war unfolds…
Don’t you see it doesn’t matter anymore?
The die is cast in lawful form and representation and the board have made their stance clear.
Whether you agree with it or not doesn’t matter.
And we’ll bicker each other into oblivion as we stand and watch fellow supporters, young and old, lifted, fined and ultimately (If the Dundee facebook rioters are anything to go by) jailed for a considerable amount of time.
Human rights are being kicked around the streets and others are going to define the nature and intent for ‘Ooh ah up the Ra.’
And not one single soul in a position of standing or indeed sanity has taken this absolute farce to task.
And all you level headed people will have no rung to perch on when they sound their dismay at ‘The Fields’ or indeed the Tricolour – because you’ll have learned too late it’s not those things they are offended by – it’s the very people related to them.
And our board, whether knowingly or otherwise has complicitly/implicitly sanctioned this.
The Famine Song, The Bouncy bouncy – The Cup Final display – The Neil Lennon assault and subsequent dismissal in regards to sectarianism.
They did nothing of any import and if they did they did so behind closed doors and therefore ashamedly.
D’you know I’m done with this because I’ll end up in an argument myself.
This a is a completely pitiful and morally bankrupt situation I’ve seen coming for months and months – and all we’ll do is lose.
And those of you so sure we can stand to lose the add ons – I hope you can stomach the heart and spirit we forfeit too.
Sad times.
U
Big Nan says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:05
Excellent post.
Celtic assitant manager Johan Mjallby has admitted his club have an interest in Maritimo striker Baba Diawara.
The Senegal international is currently the top scorer in the Portuguese top flight with nine goals.
“He’s been on the radar for a long time. We’ve seen him in the past,” said Mjallby as his side left for Italy on Europa League business.
“We always look for players to strengthen the side, but it’s too early to say if it’s going to happen.”
This week, the Madeira side’s president was reported as saying that they had opened talks with Celtic over the sale of their £3m-rated frontman.
The 23-year-old Senegalese has played with Maritimo for four years, and his displays have attracted the attention of several clubs across Europe.
The player has also represented his country once at senior level.
Saint Stivs – Kano 1000 – Glasgows Green and White says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:57
watching the debate, and yes there is some good points made against it …….
but jeese oh, they aint a handsome bunch are they, our MSP’s.
Once read a quote somewhere,can’t remember who, that “politics is showbusiness for ugly people”, quite apt in scotlands case lol; just look at Chairman Salmond ffs, THAT’S what represents Scotland worldwide! (shakes head)
Big Swee…,
if we cant trust the board who can we trust, you only need to look at the lickspittles on here to know they delude themselves.
hail hail
Lurgan
Hail hail
Mtt
James Forrest is Lennon
That is tremendous!
Lol!
Thanks iki
Baba Diawara will have to bring his ‘A’ game if he’s going to displace hoopslegend Mo Bangura from his place at the heart of the affections of the Celtic support.
Les Gray, chairman of the Scottish Police Federation
Why is their chairman acting as a PR machine for the SnP?
Les Gray criticises customers of O’Neill’s, in Low Ousegate, during Celtic v Rangers Old Firm match
9:20am Saturday 5th March 2011 in News
A HIGH-PROFILE police chief has criticised a York pub for allegedly failing to control its customers during a bad-tempered live football match.
Les Gray said the atmosphere in O’Neill’s, in Low Ousegate, was “sheer poison” and fans behaved “like cavemen” during Wednesday’s Celtic v Rangers Old Firm match.
He said the pub’s licence could have been jeopardised by the behaviour of fans watching the game – but the pub’s owners hit back, saying there were no serious behaviour issues, and any trouble would not have been tolerated.
Mr Gray, chairman of the Scottish Police Federation, was visiting York and went to the bar to watch the Scottish Cup replay. Celtic won 1-0 but Rangers had three players red-carded and there was trouble between the two teams’ coaching staffs.
Mr Gray told The Press: “If someone walked in there for a pint – and York is a popular tourist area and one of my favourite places in the world – then they would not be pleased. There was shouting and things you should never hear in a pub.”
He said the behaviour had gone unchallenged, and the pub should look at employing security staff during such big matches.
The fans all seemed to be Celtic supporters, but said even the Celtic fans he was with “could not believe their ears”.
In an interview with Talksport radio on Thursday, Mr Gray said the trouble associated with matches between Glasgow’s top clubs cost the taxpayer tens of millions of pounds a year.
He said: “I was in a pub in York and I will never watch an Old Firm game in a pub again. It was madness and mayhem. The atmosphere was incredible and I don’t mean a nice incredible – it was sheer poison.”
He said that when Celtic manager Neil Lennon and Rangers assistant Ally McCoist clashed at full time, he “thought the roof was going to come off”.
“There were people jumping about like cavemen, ranting and raving with their eyes bulging and their fists waving.”
A spokesman for O’Neill’s said they had received no contact from the local authorities and no concerns from other customers.
The pub had not been especially busy, with about 100 people watching the game, and they were satisfied with staff training.
He said: “We wish to be very clear that whilst many of our customers were passionate about the match there were no serious issues concerning customer behaviour.”
Auld heid you say;
Both the CSA and CST will have an interest in talking to Celtic and providing guidance to the support from within the support.
…………………………………..
I disagree the Board of Celtic have lost the faith of the fans in this matter by their inaction when the police were set on a political agenda of criminalising the GB.
I think the CSA and CST should talk to the fans and tell the board what they have decided. The GB have kept the club alive over these last months and we should respect them. The fans are the club and the suits only have their own vested interests at heart (it would seem anyway).
They won’t have a fan on the board and we should listen to what they say about decisions we make (after counsel’s opinion on the legality of our “approved songs”).
Msp currently speaking is a stoatir.
He was the one who said he did not know the usual songs and then quoted them.
He said he was a Jambo.