Today our parliament will go through the motions of debating how to criminalise football fans in innovative new ways, not related to prejudice, with the outcome preordained; the Bill will become law. The lines have been drawn on this debate and the country is set for a long and messy campaign.
The various calls for clarification are unlikely to be satisfied as consistency on this subject will be impossible to find. At Celtic, direct or indirect references to the IRA, already deemed unacceptable by the club, manager and most of the support, are likely to lead to prosecution. I would like to see political references removed from football but not at the cost of random criminalisation. It remains to be seen how successful attempts to prosecute fans for transgressing on this subject before the law has been passed will be.
Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.
Football is going to get messy in the months ahead as positions are so entrenched in ‘the songs debate’ there is simply no possibility of agreement. While it may only be a small minority who want to continue political chanting at Celtic, they remain Celtic fans and as entitled to establish their rights as anyone else, including Neil Lennon or Jock Stein. All we can do, as a club and support, is look for common ground amid the turmoil that lies ahead.
Today is your last chance to buy Paul Larkin’s new book, Wim’s Tims-The best thing to hit Scottish football in 10 years, with a 25% discount. Enter code: COUNTDOWN to qualify.
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jocky bhoy says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:01
If you’ve got an IRA sympathiser to wind people up and sing these provocative songs. You can see, it’s just them reacting against the Scottish establishment, and annoying the other team. It’s not because they believe it, or even have any terribly great interest in the IRA.”
Fergus mc cann 1998 on rebel songs.
DBBIA
Ole Diawara’s hair is not a patch on Mo ( the bounce ) Bangura’s curly wee newly neatened number. He’ll need to go some, and heaven help him is he’s to replace Sammi ( the lion) and his flowing mane.
Mon the singing Hoops
Jay Leno said ‘Politics is just show business for ugly people’.
Or maybe his script writers came up with the line.
Dave Prowse
You are a very cross man and the dark side I sense in you.
A couple of points, the PIRA weren’t daft, evil yes, but not daft!
Wee boys who praise them are daft, I can say this as someone used to do it, when I was a daft wee boy!
Whats more important, supporting Celtic or singing songs about the Provos?
jocky bhoy says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:01
Glad you took the time to google, but alas, clicked on the first link. Lazy.
ernie lynch says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:27
thomthethim says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:19
‘This generation has the potential to take the club onwards or to destroy it.’
The people who have the power to destroy the Club in the near future are the Celtic board, by being involved in any scheme that would allow a newco huns straight into the SPL.
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That is not the point that we are at today.
I have already, more than once, stated my view on what Celtic should do if a “soft landing” is facillitated for them. Resignation from the SFA/SPL.
Anything else will involve civil war.
In the meantime, drop the agendas, political or other wise and unite behind the club.
Most of the anger on here yesterday was directed at the wrong target.
We got fined because a selfish, moronic rump of our “support” chanted Celtic into a trap.
The club and manager asked, told ,begged them to cut out the references to the IRA.
The vast majority of the support, including the GB accepted and recognised the dangers to the club.
However, the brain dead brats would not be told. “Freedom of speech” is the cry.
Rubbish. That concept does not exist without accepting responsibility.
Now we have our hard won reputation sullied throughout the football world.
Aye, it’s Peter Lawwell’s fault.
People with an agenda other than football are the ones who are damaging the club.
Hopefully, my last comment on this.
Dontbrattbakkinanger says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:00
‘Titles are ephemeral. What matters in football is the passion, regardless of conquests.’
A direct quote from the late, great Socrates.
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Cool.
I loved the big fhella.
Grassy arse for that amigo. :-)
Paul67
Interesting has been the difference in tone in your last two articles.
Yesterday almost appeared like a knee jerk reaction to the news that the club had been fine over the illicit chanting. I’m making the assumption that the ‘I hope they’re happy’ comment was in reference to the minority of supporters who chose to sing political songs at Celtic games.
Today’s article reflects a more measured approach and your comment about those Celtic supporters who chose to sing these songs also being permitted to express their own rights is an issue that I think many other Celtic supporters need to take account of.
My great concern in the light of events at EUFA and in Parliament today is that the section of our support who chose to continue to express their ‘Irishness/Republicanism’ through songs at the footaball, end up criminalised by the judicial system but even worse, demonised by their fellow supporters.
The quicker we find this common ground the better.
JF
There is a great line from a mid 80’s, oft forgotten Dylan classic called Brownsville Girl, which goes;
“the only thing we knew for sure about Henry Porter
Is that his name isn’t isn’t Henry Porter.”
Maybe he owns the Huns now.
James Forrest is Lennon says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:14
I’ve been dipping in and out of RTC and finding it hard to follow what is bein uncovered so thanks very much for that summary.
go on Siobhain, now she is good.
Stokesy has hair like Prince Charles.
The #9 Enigma has hair like Prince Caspian.
It’s this tonsorial jealousy which lies behind Stokesy’s reluctance to pas the ball to the #9E.
Greenjedi,
I don’t argue with idiots – you’ll only drag me down to your level and then beat me with experience ;-)
TBGATB
Big Swee walks on with Neil Lennon says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:59
David,
I don’t believe we should look to outlaw or ostracise any Celtic Supporter and the board should be taking a stronger stance to ensure that the media, government and police are not allowed to do so either.
They are the real guilty party in this by failing to address a national problem that has existed
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Sadly i agree the board have been conspicuous by their absence. They have let the rank and file supporter down badly. No support over the UEFA fine apart from a ‘we told you so’ No apparent action taken over comments made on the BBC regarding our support being sectarian, threats to the GB etc etc. All they can do is pont to balance books while the support have to watch sub standard players don the hoops.
They want us closed, finished, a memory.
Anyway, anyhow,
If we don’t sing the songs they’ll get us for something else.
The mibs are getting worse.
Still, the Board will fight our corner!
Right?
Oh and Diawarra? DON’T MAKE ME LAUGH!!!!!
Saint Leo 15.46
Your mention of the word “Pythonesque” caused me to remember an example of just the type of fruitcake who makes law in this jurisdiction. Below is really worth a read, especially between columns 1406 to 1414. I hope the link works. This is the former Lord Advocate in the course of debating the Sexual Offences Bill.
http://archive.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/justice/or-08/ju08-2902.htm
Celtic Supporters of the world, have ‘taken one’ for the club over this matter.
Over to you Celtic, and let’s see who’s left at the ole Gazebo singing the Celtic Song.
Mon the Hoops.
Evil. Interesting, like i said earlier in my post. I’m not so sure you’d be going around spouting that now if they were still active.
And accusations of the dark side from a lick-spittle like you! I can do nothing but laugh at such allegations.
You have seemed to have acquired a considerable amount of enmity on this site, you strike me as the kind of person who’s common mantra was whilst growing up was ”It’s ma baw, and i’m going home’.
It’s easy enough to spew your right wing fascist diatribe from the comfort of your bedsit and the thieved WiFi from next door. But you really should get out more. It will do nothing for your own health sitting there wallowing in your own excrement.
Whats more important, letting the establishment walk all over you or denying your heritage?
I’m sure you still celebrate Kristallnacht.
TootingTim supports TKF anaw says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:01
From my son as well…..Look before an all that
Cheers and HH
jocky bhoy,
I did get back to you,
As I said, we were invited by a few CQN’er to join them at a place called ‘the sound’I think it was, near Stockwell station, but from what you said about the party it was unlikely you’d be turning up.
I have accepted the invitation to join the southside supporters for the game.
Your welcome to join us, can someone repeat the direction to the boozers please.
if your no fast yer last,
there will be plenty of opportunity to meet up after the new year
The big guy at the back….of Neil Lennon says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:18
Greenjedi,
I don’t argue with idiots – you’ll only drag me down to your level and then beat me with experience ;-)
TBGATB
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I don’t argue, I debate! Its what the grown ups do, one day you will as well!
Lurgan53, top post from earlier and agree with every word.
SffS
I had occasion to go to the loo earlier today.
As there was no one else in I sang the BOTOB in it’s entirety.
Softly.
Does that make me a criminal?
Philbhoy – It’s just the beginning! says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:25
No but maybe you should see a doctor re the length of time it takes you to pee :)
Re the get Timmy Bill.
Is it only me who finds it absolutely astounding that a party can propose a new law but have so little faith either in its veracity or worth that they have guaranteed a review after two years?
As with any law passed one would expect it to be reviewed and amended as needed. Putting this commitment so up-front tells me they all KNOW this is a ridiculous piece of legislation supported by only one party.
Remember again folks, as I often do, my late dad always taught us the were not the SNParty but the SN P……… leave you to join the dots. How right he was.
I wonder how many of our board will vote SNP next time around. I suspect it could be all of them. Their presence at Celtic Park, after their behaviour in the past few days, shames us all.
Philbhoy – It’s just the beginning! says:
Only if you are George Michael
Hamiltontim
Aye, they were asking me what took so long.
When I said I was having a sing song…….well you can imagine the rest.
SOAL
……..don’t knock it ’til you’ve tried it.
I always say!
;0)
Philbhoy,
When the new law comes in you would have committed an offence if you were at, on your way to, or in a pub that was showing a football match at the time – if a “reasonable person” was judged to find the song offensive.
Or if you were in the vicinity of a football match and were judged to be going to or from it, even if you didn’t actually attend the game.
Mr Gray told The Press: “If someone walked in there for a pint – and York is a popular tourist area and one of my favourite places in the world – then they would not be pleased. There was shouting and things you should never hear in a pub.”
Never! Football supporters shouting and saying things? This wont do, down with that sort of thing.
I presume Mr Grey has never watched a football match before? I ,mean EVER
Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:24
I think you mean the Surprise, 16 Southville, London SW8 2PP.
I go to Wandsworth overground station, if you’re about there.
Philbhoy – It’s just the beginning! says:
Lets go outside
Love
Hamiltontim & SOAL
Thanks guys!
That’s two more replies than I usually get when I post.
No smart remarks please I’m on a high!
ht,
“My great concern in the light of events at EUFA and in Parliament today is that the section of our support who chose to continue to express their ‘Irishness/Republicanism’ through songs at the footaball, end up criminalised by the judicial system but even worse, demonised by their fellow supporters.”
remind me, The Celtic Symphony, were in that song is here an expression of Irishness/Republicanism.
Its a Celtic song ffs, the Board have outlawed a Celtic song and petitioned UEFA to punish the club. So they could say told you so, bloody minded stupidity, it appears to me they have decided if they cannot force the Celtic support into submission they will destroy the club. Not the support, the board 100% responsible for the fine.
A lot of people from different sides of the debate agreed with Lurgan53’s post. Either such sentiments are a template we’d all like to follow or such sentiments mean nothing to a few agitated agitators.
There’s plenty of common ground and we should really squeeze out the people on the edge of things (ME, some would say) and let the general good nature of Celtic fans represent us.
Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:03
Big Swee…,
if we cant trust the board who can we trust, you only need to look at the lickspittles on here to know they delude themselves.
hail hail
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We can only Trust the GB, the ACSC, The AICSC = the only groups that are fighting on our side.
I wonder if meetings between CFC and the supporters is the correct approach, should it not be meetings between Ra Polis and the supporters since Ra Polis are the ones who are jailing folks not Celtic
What song is offensive or illicit
One of the main bones of contention is and always will be which songs are offensive or illicit or whatever todays term is
BOTOB
Lets say it was somehow agreed between CFC and the Fans reps that any song with IRA in the words is banned (for a start some would be happy and some wouldn’t) but lets just imagine that it was agreed
Then lets say – Will you march with O neill was song number 2- this talks of fighting the crown like the Fields of athenrye, but neither song specifically mentions the Provos
So for the sake of an example we say that songs rebelling against the crown, but not specifically mentioning the Provos are Okay
Im sure that a very great many brits will find it offensive that we sing of rebelling against the crown. They same people might also complain that this was offensive to them
So we find ourselves in a position where CFC say song 1 is banned, CFC might say song 2 is tolerated. Then an organised group of brit folks say song 2 is not acceptable to them since Lizzie is a wee stoatir in their eyes?
Do CFC now need to debate with Brit folks
Best to sort it out with the Bizzies, but its clear that they are not saying since they would then lose the right to jail folks if a particular song was not on their banned list
Gordon_J
The world has gone mad! It really has.
I hope you are well!