Today our parliament will go through the motions of debating how to criminalise football fans in innovative new ways, not related to prejudice, with the outcome preordained; the Bill will become law. The lines have been drawn on this debate and the country is set for a long and messy campaign.
The various calls for clarification are unlikely to be satisfied as consistency on this subject will be impossible to find. At Celtic, direct or indirect references to the IRA, already deemed unacceptable by the club, manager and most of the support, are likely to lead to prosecution. I would like to see political references removed from football but not at the cost of random criminalisation. It remains to be seen how successful attempts to prosecute fans for transgressing on this subject before the law has been passed will be.
Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.
Football is going to get messy in the months ahead as positions are so entrenched in ‘the songs debate’ there is simply no possibility of agreement. While it may only be a small minority who want to continue political chanting at Celtic, they remain Celtic fans and as entitled to establish their rights as anyone else, including Neil Lennon or Jock Stein. All we can do, as a club and support, is look for common ground amid the turmoil that lies ahead.
Today is your last chance to buy Paul Larkin’s new book, Wim’s Tims-The best thing to hit Scottish football in 10 years, with a 25% discount. Enter code: COUNTDOWN to qualify.
771 Comments- Pages:
- «
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
- 5
- 6
- 7
- 8
- ...
- 19
- »
Philbhoy – that’s the best post I’ve ever read on here.
And that includes anything by the likes of ole Johnny Clash, and Leo Sayer.
philbhoy @ 16:35
if your going to the game tomorrow night, then yes you are a criminal, I’m sure singing on the way to
David Prowse says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:14
So you’re referencing his role as The Green Cross Man?
DBBIA
……..praise indeed!
I thank you sir!
greenjedi says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:24
The big guy at the back….of Neil Lennon says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:18
Greenjedi,
I don’t argue with idiots – you’ll only drag me down to your level and then beat me with experience ;-)
TBGATB
share
………………………
I don’t argue, I debase! Its what tadgers do!
…………………….
Greenjedi,
There you go again with that erroneous spelling – fixed it for you above ;-)
who let the dogs out
Good afternoon to the Celtic Family from a dark cold Central Scotland. I have two trains of thought on the new legislation Alex Salmond either doesnt understand what he has done or he understands very well now he is not a stupid man I have to take it he knows what he has done.Now as I see it this new legislation has been brought in to cover Celtic Supporters as the old legislation covered everything else so from my point of view its anti Celtic and anti Catholic so Alex Salmond and the SNP can forget about my or my wifes vote in the future because as the saying goes turkeys dont vote for Christmas.I do not sing republican songs at the football because I honestly cannot see there relevance but if others want to sing them I do not see why the law should stop them the arguement that they are sectarian and offensive does not pass any scrutiny when you hear the bile that comes out of the mouths of the Rangers support which the old law covered but seemed to be rarely used. No Mr.Salmond you and your party have deliberately picked on the Celtic support that im my opinion shows bigotry on your part a new Free stand alone Scotland would be an even more bigoted country than it currently is which up until now I thought would have been impossible but you have shown your true colours.H.H.
I’m Neil Lennon (tamrabam),
The police will decide who to arrest for singing what song, but until cases come in front of the courts it won’t be clear what is actually legal and what is illegal.
The Fields is a very interesting case. It tells a story of someone who once stole and rebelled against the crown. It tells of his love’s loneliness once he has been sentenced. So is there anything offensive in in? It’s just a historical tale, isn’t it? It’s not as if the lyrics encourage theft and rebellion today. Sp what could be ruled as offensive?
As I mentioned earlier, a lot of lawyers will end up being paid a lot of money to debate how this “reasonable person” would react to the lyrics of songs.
First they came for the communists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me…
David Prowse says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:23
Evil. Interesting, like i said earlier in my post. I’m not so sure you’d be going around spouting that now if they were still active.
And accusations of the dark side from a lick-spittle like you! I can do nothing but laugh at such allegations.
********
David,
behave yourself. I would have thought that you would have picked up on the Green Cross Man and Darth Vadar joke from greenjedi.(you have a lot in common with him! :>))
Leave the insulting name calling to those who don’t know any better. You are better than that.
Lurgan 5, for me, summed up what an Irish Nationalist Celtic supporter thinks.
Coming from where you do, you should understand that better than most.
David Prowse says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:23
Evil. Interesting, like i said earlier in my post. I’m not so sure you’d be going around spouting that now if they were still active.
And accusations of the dark side from a lick-spittle like you! I can do nothing but laugh at such allegations.
You have seemed to have acquired a considerable amount of enmity on this site, you strike me as the kind of person who’s common mantra was whilst growing up was ”It’s ma baw, and i’m going home’.
It’s easy enough to spew your right wing fascist diatribe from the comfort of your bedsit and the thieved WiFi from next door. But you really should get out more. It will do nothing for your own health sitting there wallowing in your own excrement.
Whats more important, letting the establishment walk all over you or denying your heritage?
I’m sure you still celebrate Kristallnacht.
………………………
Yes evil, how else would you describe people who plant bombs to kill innocent people. And BTW the British Governments at the time were just as evil!
Lickspittle??? A big Jim Traynor fan are you? So if I don’t go to Celtic Park for any reason other than to stand my Irish Catholic heritage and because I don’t use Celtic as a political tool I’m a Lickspittle?
Only from those to who Celtic come second after their political agenda! To me Celtic is all about FOOTBALL!!!
Calling someone a Fascist while demanding the right to glorify terrorists! Interesting point of view there.
How am I allowing the establishment to walk all over me? You’re walking straight into the establishments trap, I prefer to use my brains and not give them ammunition to kill me, unlike yourself.
Kristallnacht! Seriously? You’re comparing a major event in the attempted extermination of the Jewish race with the fact you’re not allowed to sing “up the ra” or something similar. BTW the legislation being brought in today will be destroyed by the first person to go the European Court of Human Rights, it a rushed bad law and will suffer for it!
A wee tip, as soon as you get personal you loose focus and thus the debate. Anger, fear and aggresion the dark side are they. You must learn control!
Never under estimate the predictability of stupidity !
All day long the blog awash with the ill informed, ignorant, appeasing,
misguided political correctness, underhand, prawn munching,
v neck pullover wearing, is the boot big enough for my my golf clubs,
middle-class wannabe’s.
Greenjedi – the self-nominated voice of the real Celtic fans.
You may be a big boy now but the term ‘daft’ is clearly still applicable.
As for ‘grown up debate’, surely such debate requires an understanding of critical reasoning !
*Lurgan53….sorry.
Gordon J…,
if there is any question on the offensiveness of the song, they’ll just do what they do now, breach of the peace, innit, with the boards blessing.
You have no idea how difficult it is for me to say this but Johan Lamont’s contribution was spot on.
Lurgan 53 says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:41
I was wondering how to approach the latest song debate , your post at 15.41 comes as close as I have seen to my point of view.
Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire,
But if they use a breach charge, is this an admission that the new law is no good?
Philbhoy – It’s just the beginning! says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:25
I had occasion to go to the loo earlier today.
As there was no one else in I sang the BOTOB in it’s entirety.
Softly.
Does that make me a criminal?
—————————-
Having not heard you sing, I have no idea if you murdered the song or not. :)
BBC 2007
Uefa drops Rangers salute probe
Rangers have again urged fans not to make red hand of Ulster salutes after the club avoided a Uefa probe into a complaint by an anti-racism group.
It followed newspaper photographs suggesting Nazi-style gestures during their match against Hapoel Tel-Aviv.
Uefa has accepted Rangers’ explanation that such salutes related to the red hand on the Ulster flag.
But club chief executive Martin Bain said: “We have repeatedly made clear that fans should not make them.”
Rangers were fined £4,000 in December after a pro-Palestinian protestor invaded the pitch during a match in the previous round against another Israeli club, Maccabi Haifa.
The Scottish club were also fined £13,000 last season after claims that fans sang sectarian songs during their Champions League tie with Villarreal.
But Bain did not envisage any problems for Thursday’s second leg of the Uefa Cup tie with Hapoel in Glasgow.
It is also the sign of the red hand of Ulster and this convinced the disciplinary unit to end their investigation
Uefa spokesman
“Rangers fans have always made Israeli supporters welcome at Ibrox,” he told Rangers’ website.
“However, none of us want to see another European campaign marred by the type of sanction taken against our club last season, or worse.
“We are delighted Uefa has seen fit to dismiss this matter.
“It is disappointing when there are other stadium environment issues around Europe that our club again comes into focus.
“Our supporters have rightly been praised by all foreign police forces involved in our European games so far and we have a wide range of measures in place to encourage positive fan behaviour.
“The club and supporters organisations have repeatedly urged fans to avoid making any kind of one-armed salute, because they will be misinterpreted, and it is important to reiterate that message.
“Rangers have been campaigning vigorously for common standards on crowd behaviour to be implemented both domestically and at European level.
“We are proud of the standards that we have set at Ibrox which we believe are among the highest.
“Our supporters have responded tremendously to all appeals from the club and from supporters organisations to show Rangers in the best possible light and we are grateful for their continued support.
“Equally, we do not hesitate to take action against anyone who lets the club down.”
Indeed, although Bain stressed that it was only a small section of the Rangers support making the gestures, Rangers have warned that they will seek direct compensation from fans should their action lead to any more Uefa sanctions.
An Ibrox source told BBC Sport: “The Scottish legal system provides a mechanism for compensation to be awarded as part of the criminal process.
“Where any person is convicted of an offence, the circumstances of which led to any financial consequences, including the imposition of any sanction by a governing body, there exists the possibility that a request can be made for an order of compensation in respect of the sum.”
A Uefa spokesman said that European football’s governing body had accepted Rangers’ explanation.
“The disciplinary unit will not be taking any further action,” he said.
Auld Neil Lennon heid says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:54
Philbhoy – It’s just the beginning! says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:25
I had occasion to go to the loo earlier today.
As there was no one else in I sang the BOTOB in it’s entirety.
Softly.
Does that make me a criminal?
—————————-
Having not heard you sing, I have no idea if you murdered the song or not. :)
………………..
Did you offend yourselve?
canamalar
Stockwell tube and a bitova walk or Wandsworth Road overground and a bitova walk.
Or get a 77 bus from Waterloo, or an 87 bus from Aldwych/Strand/Whitehall, alight at Larkhall Park.
It’s not difficult to get to just a bit quirky.
16 Southville SW8 get a Googlemap printout.
See you then!
greenjedi,
“demanding the right to glorify terrorists”
rather colourfull imagination there, not seen anyone “glorifying terrorists”
make me want to ask the question,
Are rangers, through their fiscal policy responsible for the deaths of British soldiers on active duty ??
I believe politics is ruined by politicians and lost any faith or trust in them and the system a long time ago.
There’s actually real problems to be addressed in this country and yet what fans sing at a football match seems to be uppermost in some MSPs thoughts.
Utter nonsense.
Have to say though,if this blog’s an indicator of the feelings of our support in general then those behind the bill are winning as it seems we’re split.Divide and conquer.
Time to take my bhoy to his fitba’ training,pass and move,pass and move.Beats waiting to be offended by a song.Even in this weather.
Hail hail,Port Glasgow Juniors Under 10’s are here!
FOREVERANDEVER!!!
Gordon_j,
no, it is not about being good or not, its about getting convictions and bringing balance.
greenjedi
regarded as terrorists, responsible for hundreds of civilian deaths, involved in a conflict that unofficial figures have the estimated casualties as high as 4000.
shooting,bombing,burning,distruction of property,bank and post office robberies,execution,reprisal,ambush,kidnap,torture…………
the IRA from 1919 – 1923
UC
For a Club which is genuinely inclusive the definition of who is a real Celtic supporter, and the mindset they should adopt, is set to pretty narrow limits on here.
And for a support that values tolerance we’ve become pretty intolerant to any alternative views.
Celtic’s Irish roots are to be celebrated; but true to Irish history they also bring division and discord; fraternal feelings running as strong as the fratricidal.
Auld Heid at 15.56
“It seems to have become accepted by drift that TBBs and TFS are somehow now OK. In fact the new bill makes it even more important that this is seen not to be so and visiible evidence of equivalence should be part of what we as a support demand to give us some assurance this bill will not be a one edged sword.”
This part of your post is instructive and reveals a dangerous mindset; of the same kind that allowed the Celtic board to collude with the Scottish authorities in the persecution of our supporters.
You obviously view the Famine Song as the equivalent of ‘ooh Ah Up, the Ra’, and presumably the singers/chanters as occupying the equivalent moral ground.
Lawwellists like yourself have been every bit as damaging to our club as any anti-Celtic bigot. And when it comes to the crunch you I am convinced you will help to keep the Old Firm alive.
dbbia,
thats passion for you eh
is modern passion rubbish, or just the boorish middle class bigoted Celtic support thats rubbish ?
DBBIA
One shouldn’t forget the schism caused during the Lake Seminole Long Bayou Dam project in Florida – Part of me thinks we’ve never truly recovered from that – and that was in 1949!
U
Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:24
jocky bhoy,
I did get back to you
I know, just had no idea of the pub…
Tooting…,
I will be there, I do find it unlikely jocky will though.
jocky..,
so are you up for it ?
greenjedi says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:48
I think even fair minded Irish Nationalists take umbrage with you referring to PIRA as terrorists. A Very Brit term indeed. Many of us owe a debt of gratitude to the men who protected the Nationalist areas from attack during the conflict and many gave their lives doing so. Yes innocent people are killed in conflict including Ireland and I am in no way trying to justify the deaths of any civilians what so ever however the British are just as adept at targeting civilians in fact they are past masters at this particular tactic – Ireland, Dresden, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Although they euphemistically refer to it as collateral damage.
speaking of the pub, a man would die of thirst wating for a response from greenjedi I suppose, no doubt tapping away at some deflection to the question trying to excuse the huns of their responsibilities.
so SNP have voted in this Orwellian law then? say bye bye to this potential “yes” vote in a referendum, if they ever have the balls to actually hold it.
greenjedi,
will kep an eye out for your response in the boozer
What I got from the tone of the debate from the SNP contributors is that their desire to rush through legislation is driven by a middle-class cringe at Scottish football culture as much as anything.
Lots of the passionate objectors who spoke clearly understood the nuances involved; many of the SNP proposers just seemed to express disdain for this ghastly spectacle that attracts, in their view, a disproportionate amount of any global media attention that Scotland gets.
Hi Folks,
It is to be expected that the songs debate has and will continue to rage on.
My point and I would welcome feedback,is with regard to the future rather than the past.
As I see it, now that at last we have SOME clarity (not nearly enough) around what can and can’t be sung, people have 3 choices which come to mind ( I am sure there will be other choices people will come up with but these seem to be the basics)
1.Accept (reluctantly or otherwise) the days of singing songs which contain reference to the IRA are over and stop singing them.
2.Say “to hell with the law,I will continue to sing whatever I like,including ooh ah up the ra etc” .Doing so in the knowledge that if caught,I will be prosecuted and the club punished
3.Stop going to the games
Option 1 for me
What about other folks?