Today our parliament will go through the motions of debating how to criminalise football fans in innovative new ways, not related to prejudice, with the outcome preordained; the Bill will become law. The lines have been drawn on this debate and the country is set for a long and messy campaign.
The various calls for clarification are unlikely to be satisfied as consistency on this subject will be impossible to find. At Celtic, direct or indirect references to the IRA, already deemed unacceptable by the club, manager and most of the support, are likely to lead to prosecution. I would like to see political references removed from football but not at the cost of random criminalisation. It remains to be seen how successful attempts to prosecute fans for transgressing on this subject before the law has been passed will be.
Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.
Football is going to get messy in the months ahead as positions are so entrenched in ‘the songs debate’ there is simply no possibility of agreement. While it may only be a small minority who want to continue political chanting at Celtic, they remain Celtic fans and as entitled to establish their rights as anyone else, including Neil Lennon or Jock Stein. All we can do, as a club and support, is look for common ground amid the turmoil that lies ahead.
Today is your last chance to buy Paul Larkin’s new book, Wim’s Tims-The best thing to hit Scottish football in 10 years, with a 25% discount. Enter code: COUNTDOWN to qualify.
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Credit to paul67, articles like this are what make cqn such a great site.
Evening bhoys, been a pleasent day weather wise, as ever hun free.
Some interesting and informed stuff on the blog that past day or two, quite a few heart felt posts, some absolute kack as well.
Keep it up, it’s rather enjoyable.
Canalamar – boorishness/bigotry/narrowmindedness transcend class/creed/race.
Some of the views on here make FF read like the Collected Works of Gautama Buddha
Gentlemen,
I am no lawyer but I think the simplest way to discredit this bill if that is what we want to do is to contest the reference that limits the offence to Scottish football see below.
If someone (a reasonable person) was to argue for example they had witnessed threatening and offensive behaviour in the street during perhaps an orange walk how could the authorities deem one worthy of whatever punishment and not the other???
The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Bill aims to tackle the recent issues affecting
Scottish football
and will, if passed by Parliament, criminalise behaviour which is threatening, hateful or otherwise offensive at a regulated football match including offensive singing or chanting. It will also criminalise the communication of threats of serious violence and threats intended to incite religious hatred, whether sent through the post or posted on the internet. The Scottish Parliament intends the Bill to be passed by the end of the year. The Bill will only criminalise behaviour likely to lead to public disorder which expresses or incites hatred, is threatening or is otherwise offensive to a reasonable person.
thomthethim says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:14
On a scale of 1 to 10, how much of a moronic, brain dead brat are you going to feel when the Celtic board support a plan to allow a newco huns straight into the SPL?
Ernie Lynch 17.35 If your suggestion comes to pass it is my honest opinion they will lose thousands of supporters and the Celtic you and I know today will no longer exist.H.H.
SSN
No Ledley mathews, commons or loovens for tomorrow night.
Sorry if it’s old news
P
With the exception of Paul McBride, who has his own agenda/political aspirations and changes his allegiance every few months, has there been much comment from the legal establishment on this legislation? If this was going through the real Parliament it would be scritunised by the members of the other chamber. I’m wondering how happy or otherwise judges will be when the responsibility for deciding whether/who/what to prosecute is placed on them. Effectively this is what will happen since there will be little guidance within the wording of the new law itself. Especially with regard to what the average person would find “reasonable”.
Just who is the man on the Clapham omnibus?
‘Just who is the man on the Clapham omnibus?’
That’ll be ole Cadizzy, I expect.
NatKnow
He is difinately a Hun.
oops, izzat an offensive communication?
dallasnomore says:
14 December, 2011 at 17:04
Auld Heid at 15.56
“It seems to have become accepted by drift that TBBs and TFS are somehow now OK. In fact the new bill makes it even more important that this is seen not to be so and visiible evidence of equivalence should be part of what we as a support demand to give us some assurance this bill will not be a one edged sword.”
This part of your post is instructive and reveals a dangerous mindset; of the same kind that allowed the Celtic board to collude with the Scottish authorities in the persecution of our supporters.
You obviously view the Famine Song as the equivalent of ‘ooh Ah Up, the Ra’, and presumably the singers/chanters as occupying the equivalent moral ground.
Lawwellists like yourself have been every bit as damaging to our club as any anti-Celtic bigot. And when it comes to the crunch you I am convinced you will help to keep the Old Firm alive.
——————————
God you sure had to twist that statement in bold to make it obvious to yourself.
The meaning of what I said originally is pretty clear. THE SUPPORT will be looking for equivalent arrests by the police for mention of TFS/TBBS or IRA to assure the support they alone are not being targetted..
Twisting that to suggest I personally draw equivalence between TFS and what UEFA found us guilty of suggests a twisted mind on your part.
And you think I have a dangerous mindset?
I would not let yours out on its own.
DBBIA –
His postings on CQN are always exceptionally well-balanced!
Canamalar
Sorry I’ve been travelling home.
Would you not agree that singing ‘op ah up the ra’ is an expression of Irishness?
Monteblanco –
“izzat an offensive communication?”
I’m a reasonable guy and I don’t think so!
James Forrest is Lennon says:
14 December, 2011 at 15:14
Thanks for that update buddy.
MWD
What was the vote figures or have those stats been misplaced.
Play
The football site that does not focus on football even on a European week. I despair. Goodnight from a rather dismal Bangalore where at least they seperate sport from politics. If ever a term was appropriate then narrow minded is so true for Scotland the only nation that reports itself on a regular basis to Eufa. Anyway hail hail bhoys i will think about the match tomorrow and not worry about the tosh this article conveys. Adults need not worry about illicit chanting which is the folly of fools and kids :-)
TootingTim supports TKF anaw says:
14 December, 2011 at 17:13
Your post gave me what I hope is, a far fetched thought. That if that is how Scottish Football is perceived (Celtic & Rangers) by them and they think it attracts a negativity to the Country, wouldn’t it be better off without Scottish Football (Celtic & Rangers)?
JD
Auld Heid 17.56
Thanks for admitting that you have no problem with this legislation, as long as it targets both sets of supporters equally.
A great comfort to the 17 year old Green Brigadier lying in on remand is that his opposite number at Ibrox has also been arrested. What a way to deal with a social problem!
Your reponse to the fine by uefa’s kangaroo court, suggests a similar attitude. For these chanting supporters to be responsible for Celtic to be found guilty of an offence when they (the supporters) are not being told in detail the songs that could cause the club to be charged in the future is an incredible indictment of the Celtic board. They could never get away with this sort of outrageous behaviour without the support of lackeys like you.
stephenpollok
Missing you already.
MWD
oglach UFB says:
14 December, 2011 at 17:09
greenjedi says:
14 December, 2011 at 16:48
I think even fair minded Irish Nationalists take umbrage with you referring to PIRA as terrorists. A Very Brit term indeed. Many of us owe a debt of gratitude to the men who protected the Nationalist areas from attack during the conflict and many gave their lives doing so. Yes innocent people are killed in conflict including Ireland and I am in no way trying to justify the deaths of any civilians what so ever however the British are just as adept at targeting civilians in fact they are past masters at this particular tactic – Ireland, Dresden, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Although they euphemistically refer to it as collateral damage.
………………….
What about the people of Warrington, Omagh, Manchester, London etc etc
And by the way I said the British Government where just as bad!
Not feelin’ the love on here today folks, nope, not feelin’ it.
(putting me right off my foie gras, so it is)
greenjedi
The British didn’t give warnings when they killed approximately 100,000 innocent civilians after a ceasefire had been agreed in principal.
feel sorry for Stanley Baxter: his best sayings are now illegal.
Aw Ra best, aw Ra time to Aw Ra bhoys.
Principal = principle!
Bloody phones…
hamiltontim says:
14 December, 2011 at 18:30
greenjedi
The British didn’t give warnings when they killed approximately 100,000 innocent civilians after a ceasefire had been agreed in principal.
…………………………………….
Are you reading what you are typing?
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Are you seriously trying to justify those bombings by whataboutry?
Good evening friends.
Just 25 and a bit hours till kick off. Great to have a big European match to look forward to.
I suppose there might be a couple of games on TV tonight where we can check out our possible opponents in the last 32…
Jobo
positivethinkingfor24hoursCSC
greenjedi
Absolutely pissing myself at that mate.
You accuse me of whatabouttery?!
If you want a perfect example see your post at 18:23 for reference mate.
I drew your attention to a difference, please try and see that.
Is the game on TV tomorrow?
V
Well the bill has been passed and is now law, passed by 64 votes to 57 in the Scottish Parliament.
The courts will at some point decide what is offensive and what is not.
“Earlier, about 20 football supporters wearing t-shirts bearing the slogan “fans not criminals” were excluded from the Holyrood chamber after parliament bosses told them they were only allowed in if they took them off.” (BBC)
Apparently protest is not allowed either now. And I for one find that very offensive.
Vmhan,
pretty sure it’s on ESPN with an 8.00 kick off.
Jobo
dallasnomore says:
14 December, 2011 at 18:20
Auld Heid 17.56
Thanks for admitting that you have no problem with this legislation, as long as it targets both sets of supporters equally.
A great comfort to the 17 year old Green Brigadier lying in on remand is that his opposite number at Ibrox has also been arrested. What a way to deal with a social problem!
Your reponse to the fine by uefa’s kangaroo court, suggests a similar attitude. For these chanting supporters to be responsible for Celtic to be found guilty of an offence when they (the supporters) are not being told in detail the songs that could cause the club to be charged in the future is an incredible indictment of the Celtic board. They could never get away with this sort of outrageous behaviour without the support of lackeys like you.
=========================
Can you point out where I said I have no problem with the legislation?
Suggesting how to make the best of a bad job is not saying I have no problem with the legislation, but carry on picking out and then twisting whatever bits serve your agenda.
Celtic were told the song/add on that caused the problem, they have passed that info on to the support. The UEFA rule that was breached has also been published. Why not do some research and get your facts right before posting?
Vmhan,
Poster suggested earlier on here that Al-Jazzera are showing it…which means you need to find a sausage.
18.48
“Celtic were told the song/add on that caused the problem, they have passed that info on to the support.”
Maybe you could enlighten me. And what other songs/chants may cause problems for us in the future.
It’s not hard to change. It may seem hard, but it isn’t.
Celtic fans have always had the shitty end of the stick when it comes to the way authority have treated us.
Lets not give them cause for complaint.
Lets just behave in a way that gives the constabulary and the government any reason to arrest or fine us.
If that means stopping singing some songs then stop.
Why fight against this as the oppressor will win in a fight.
Why not just beat them at their own game.
Stop the “offensive” or “illicit” songs and chants.
Record those who do and complain about it constantly to the correct authorities.
I for one will be happy to report a crime now that I have been criminalised and I will not commit one to prove a point.
We have four youngsters in the squad for Udinese trip – F Twardzik, Toshney, Keatings and Paul George.
V
Udinese v Celtic 20:05 ESPN / ESPN HD
Corrib and Jobo thanks for the reply, I see it’s on ESPN that’ll do.
V