Today our parliament will go through the motions of debating how to criminalise football fans in innovative new ways, not related to prejudice, with the outcome preordained; the Bill will become law. The lines have been drawn on this debate and the country is set for a long and messy campaign.
The various calls for clarification are unlikely to be satisfied as consistency on this subject will be impossible to find. At Celtic, direct or indirect references to the IRA, already deemed unacceptable by the club, manager and most of the support, are likely to lead to prosecution. I would like to see political references removed from football but not at the cost of random criminalisation. It remains to be seen how successful attempts to prosecute fans for transgressing on this subject before the law has been passed will be.
Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.
Football is going to get messy in the months ahead as positions are so entrenched in ‘the songs debate’ there is simply no possibility of agreement. While it may only be a small minority who want to continue political chanting at Celtic, they remain Celtic fans and as entitled to establish their rights as anyone else, including Neil Lennon or Jock Stein. All we can do, as a club and support, is look for common ground amid the turmoil that lies ahead.
Today is your last chance to buy Paul Larkin’s new book, Wim’s Tims-The best thing to hit Scottish football in 10 years, with a 25% discount. Enter code: COUNTDOWN to qualify.
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will it be offensive to wear an orc top and walk along with those triumphalist trots we are subjected to
……………football and religion?
i’ve said it before……we should incorporate a few old hymns into the songbook. if the authorities try and clamp down on them as offensive or incitement……….europe will be watching
St Johnstone game is live on al jazeera.
Udinese game is on Al Jazeera Sport +3 B92 C+ Aitio (finland C+ Sport 1 (sweden Dolce Sport Eredivisie Live 2 ESPN (uk only Ictimai TV Italia NTV+ Football 2 OBN BiH Polsat Sport Extra Setanta Ireland Sport 1 (israel Sport TV4 (portugal) Story TV4 SuperSport 1 [DigitAlb SuperSport 3 (za) Viasat Football (norway ~ Dolce Sport HD ~ Sport 1 HD (israel ~ SuperSport HD1 [DigitAlb
themightyquinn says:
14 December, 2011 at 18:52
I wonder if it ever occurred to Bob Kelly that he could beat them at them own game by taking down the Tricolour?
New law passed subject to Royal Assent.
Can you hear the Celtic sing?
No’ allowed tae sing a thing.
fourstone…
Could you not be done for singing them at, or on the way to, a football stadium if a polis deems it to be offensive?!
Corrib –
I think the Al Jazeera option is in relation to Sunday’s game.
Jobo
Bada Bing
Aye, buy it’s getting the right sausage for Al Jazeera ;-)
The Legend Johnny Doyle says:
14 December, 2011 at 18:18
I think their doomed legislation is based on a far-fetched notion, born partly out of not really understanding the problem. That you can legislate, to coin a phrase ‘nasty OF-ery’ as they see it, out of existence. Or more importantly out of the stadiums so the rolling news media don’t find it such an enticing morsel. Pass a heavy-handed new law, CLAMP DOWN on ‘this sort of thing’. They think you can make Scottish football all vanilla and fluffy with a daft bit of legislation.
BSR 1902
Nae pork,then……
Bourne-indeed ;)
Don’t usually post at this time to avoid the slanging matches but am interested to know what the feeling is on tomorrow night’s game(football and all that).
I realised a couple of Europa games back that I am starting to look at these games like I do Scotland games i.e. hope we win but not depressed if we don’t.
How did that happen? Up to this season I was bitchin, moanin, cheerin, kickin every ball. i used to lovea European night in the pub when i was in England.
part of it is a lack of Celtic community in Dublin (mostly watch games at home or on my own in a pub looking to flip over to Stoke vs Bolton) and maybe it is the fact that we got in by default after Sion screwed up.
I don’t know but tomorrow I will try to get back to normal.
I think we will draw by the way.
PS I wonder if any CQN red cards will be issued this week ( a few yellows recently) or with the week that’s in it maybe excessive posts will be let go for now. A few studs up challenges today I saw just flicking through for 10 mins.
PPS I love Celtic, always did, always will, canny wait to be at the game on 28th as always.
Hail Hail
St Johnstone v Celtic is live on al jazeera Sport +3 Al Jazeera Sport +5 Orange Sport (poland OSN Sports 2 D – 18/12/11 – 16:00 Setanta Africa D – 18/12/11 – 17:30 BBC Alba
Sunday Sausage required
What about the people of Warrington, Omagh, Manchester, London etc etc
And by the way I said the British Government where just as bad!
—————————————————————————————————————————————————–
They were considered acts of WAR by the PIRA. Were innocent civilians killed and maimed- yes they were and as i previously stated i am not attempting to justify the death of innocents. However your argument is the same regurgitation of British propaganda – The IRA are terrorists. Well here is a dictionary definition of a Terrorist – “An individual who uses violence, terror, and intimidation to achieve a result” Now put this into the context of the British occupation of Ireland. A definition of Terrorism – “terrorism is a pejorative term. It is a word with intrinsically negative connotations that is generally applied to one’s enemies and opponents, or to those with whom one disagrees and would otherwise prefer to ignore. Hence the decision to call someone or label some organization ‘terrorist’ becomes almost unavoidably subjective, depending largely on whether one sympathizes with or opposes the person/group/cause concerned.
Why don’t you call Scottish Regiments that severed in Ireland and who in the main did their utmost to ‘Terrorise’ the nationalist community of NI – TERROISTS go on be objective.
Paul McBride on shortbread seeking more publicity by helping the Diet H*n players for nothing. Am i being totally cynical?
greenjedi – You are like a dog with a bone here.Let it go mate,it’s over and done with,for now.
It seems to me that you are revelling in all of this.
This issue has been used to distract and divide.
Our fans,manager and players must remain focused – We have to keep our eyes on the prize.Winning the SPL title is what matters most,and they are trying their absolute worst to prevent this.
As the Saviour of Spain himself once said – “All the rifles must point in the same direction.”
We must stand united.When the title is safely back in Paradise,then we can deal with these other matters.Lawwell and his cronies are the enemy within,it is a must that they are removed from their positions within Celtic Park.But they can wait for another day,their day will come.
But as i have already stated – Now is not the time.
God Bless The Celtic.
stephenpollock says:
14 December, 2011 at 18:16
‘What do they know of cricket who only cricket know?’
Coneybhoy says:
14 December, 2011 at 19:09
We’ll probably lose and be able to concentrate on the domestic trebble. I’d be delighted if we win though. It’s possible.
OK, so no Loovens, Ledley, Matthews for tomorrow, with Neil set to go all out for the win…
If we’re going gung-ho, I’d have this XI:
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Zaluska ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Cha :::::::::::: Wanyama ::::::::::: Majstorovic ::::::: Mulgrew
:::::::: Brown :::::::::::::: Kayal :::::::::::::::: Ki ::::::::::::::
::::::: McCourt :::::::::::: Hooper ::::::::::::: Samaras ::::::::
Amd before you start bleating about James Forrest, I realise he’ll get the nod ahead of Sammi (as would Bangura, for that matter). I disagree with most of you and Lenny on Forrest. He has been mediocre of late, and with the exception of the Rennes game at Celticv Park, has performed poorly in our European games.
On his day, he is a superb player for us, but Paddy on his day is special, and he deserves far more than the puny amount of game time he’s been getting.
Both Ledley and Loovens would be in my team, and Ledley especially is a huge miss for tomorrow. Wanyama is key, and offers more at CB than he does in midfield. Both he and Majstorovic are a formidable pairing, despite that 0-1 loss to St Johnstone.
Stat attack: Wanyama and Dan have a 67.67% win rate at CB from their starts together; they have conceded 0.67 goals per game; Wanyama’s shirt no. is 67. Omens don’t come more leonine than this, folks.
“get the nod ahead of Sammi”????
Saints alive. No one gets that. I meant Paddy, of course.
West Brom agree fee with Dundee Utd for MF Scott Allan,i think we have been looking at this guy too.
dallasnomore says:
14 December, 2011 at 18:51
18.48
“Celtic were told the song/add on that caused the problem, they have passed that info on to the support.”
Maybe you could enlighten me. And what other songs/chants may cause problems for us in the future.
——————
Note the use of the past tense above. I have bolded it for you. UEFA ruled on a specific song/addon that UEFA judged broke UEFA rules. Celtic accepted the UEFA rule had been breached. One of the reasons might have been the poor chance of an appeal persuading UEFA that the IRA had been unfairly tarred with the same brush as Al Quaeda and were not in fact that kind of terrorist organisation.
I have no idea what other songs might cause problems in the future but we now know one addon that will.
For a look at what might have been OK before this bill check
http://www.cici.org.uk/SummaryofEqualityandDiversitytrainingCelticFootballClubsupporters.htm
In my original post that you misrepresented this was the “consultant” whose name escaped me that I suggested be used again to help avoid future problems.
BMCUW/ Bada
Seriously worried about having to listen to this on Shortbread (⊙_⊙)
Coneybhoy
Sadly, I’m with you on this. Like the majority of Celtic supporters I grew up loving the European games at Parkhead under the lights, they were truly special, memorable occasions.
This season I’ve found it difficult to muster any great enthusiasm for the Europa League matches. I think personally It’s about priorities and without doubt the priority this season is the SPL title.
Kevin Barry ( Great Version )
Will Celtic fans who are listening to their ipods with the volume turned up be in danger of being criminalised if ‘ooh aah up the ra’ etc are heard.
greenjedi the post listed below is aimed at you was inn response to you
oglach UFB says:
14 December, 2011 at 19:14
bournesouprecipe says:
14 December, 2011 at 19:25
I prefer this version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSjO9rIwn5M
Crap i know what i meant to say DOOH
TootingTim supports TKF anaw says:
14 December, 2011 at 19:03
Worrying times indeed for the “Old Firm”
Channel 5
fulham v odense
805pm kick-off
Silver City/Hamilton
thanks for that – not just me then!
PS I will be on a conf call during the first half so hope we only score in the second or it could be “career limiting” as they say these days.
Hail Hail
Lets have a singsong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-5lh09aSwo
TC
Are we playing the u-19 huns soon?
bournesouprecipe says:
14 December, 2011 at 19:25
If our fans started to sing Kevin Barry once again – It would be interesting to see how the SNP and the Scottish police reacted to this.
Because surely,if they took issue with the song Kevin Barry – then not only would they be taking issue with the Celtic support,but they would also be taking issue with a sovereign nation and her people.
The thing that galls me about this farcical scenerio is this – The Irish and the English do not have a problem with these songs,both nations have long since buried the hatchet – Wars are wars,they are not nice,but they happen,they are fought,and they are won and lost.
What is the problem with these so-called “Scottish Nationalists”,and their quisling brethern that bargained and sold Scotland and her people for English gold?
Are they jealous or what?
I don’t get it.
Al Jazzera is Sundays right enough Jobo. Thanks, my bad.
Paul.
Keep on truckin’!
Seriously, you’re a quiet centre in a flippin’ whirlwind world.
The SNP have just signed their exit papers from Holyrood.
This is the Bill which will ensure the gains they made in recent years from an impotent Labour party are reversed.
Appalling law for a Government – political party – to pass. That’s what happens when there is too large a majority – abuse of power.
A law which fails to specify what actually breaks it.
A law which targets football supporters in a country where trouble at football matches is neglible.
A law which allows – instructs, even – individual police officers to decide who is a criminal.
A cowardly government passing a cowardly law simply because they failed to take action on the sectarian cancer which has disfigured our country for decades. Not only did they fail to act, the Justice minister openly praised thousands of supporters who had indulged in a full two hours of sectarian hostility at our national stadium. If McAskill did not resign after the Lokerbie fiasco, he should have been sacked after those comments.
Professor Devine made the most pertinent point of all – less than 14% of sectarian crime takes place in the context of football matches. Ignored by our Government in their haste to label football fans as criminals for singing songs that are illegal nowhere else in the country other than inside a football stadium.
The SNP shall never get my vote. They have poisoned the very notion of Independence for me. Ironically, the SNP are the very reason that Scotland should not be granted Independence. I will vote Conservative before I vote SNP, and that is a sequence of words I never thought I would type. (Of course, I shall never vote for either in reality, but that’s how far they have fallen.
Where is the data Mr McAskill? Ah yes, it’s readily available for anyone with the motivation to retrieve it and analyse it. Which rules out the SNP.
About 20 mins ago BBC Radio 2 played Follow Me Up To Carlow. So an Englishman isn’t too bothered about playing a song with lyrics like
“would you let a Saxon cock
Crow out upon an Irish Rock,
fly up and teach him manners”
Would SNP and any “reasonable person” find that offensive, or is the topic too far in the past to offend? Is the Irish War of Independence too fresh in the memories for some of Scotland’s delicate souls?