I’ve just caught Joe O’Rourke’s article on the Association site about the long-awaited released of statistics on sectarian crime in Scotland. Joe suggests that the data from 2003 – 2010 was has been destroyed by the Crown Office. I also hear that the Scottish Government will release entirely irrelevant ‘information’ today, specifically, where offences took place, not which groups were responsible or which groups were targeted by the offenders.
It takes a lot of effort to make sure you destroy data these days, you need to ensure not only that prosecutors permanently delete backups (which I really doubt they do) but also that the police similarly comply.
Fortunately all is not lost. While it’s just about believable that regional police forces across Scotland and the Crown Office have acted in symmetry on this issue, I could have helped the First Minister, Alex Salmond’s, search for clarity by pointing him in the direction of British Transport Police (BTP). The Transport Police are a separate force who operate across Britain and are run by the Home Office in London. They are also a lot less proficient at destroying data.
They previously gave me detailed statistics on all incidents they record in connection with Scottish football for season 2007-08. One of the most pleasing aspects of the information is the complete eradication of sectarian offences from all but one Scottish club, so the First Minister will be delighted to learn he has a smaller problem on his hands than he perhaps knew. According to BTP, 11 arrests were made for sectarian offences in total, 10 Rangers fans and one Northern Ireland fan.
You can see the detail figures for all recorded incidents here (the majority of which are for non-sectarian issues). From a total of 99 incidents (not all of which resulted in arrest), there were six involving Celtic fans, six for Dundee United, seven for Motherwell, four for Hibernian and five each for Aberdeen and Hearts. Rangers fans were involved in a total of 48 incidents.
The BPT figures also make it clear that most incidents occur when fans travel to away venues. The Force also confirmed that incidents surrounding the 2008 Uefa Cup final in Manchester were not included in these statistics.
To further aid Mr Salmond in his search for clarity on this issue, he can contact British Transport Police with a Freedom of Information request here, where they will be able to provide him (or you) with up to date stats.
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Dodgy financing
Behind crime scenes
Behind the crime scenes
Craigie Whytie
He’s the one that keeps the dream alive
from the morning
past the evening
to the end of the light
Brimful of Vodka and the police connive
Well it’s a brimful of Vodka while hacks contrive
Brimful of Vodka while they take a dive
Well it’s a brimful of Vodka cause they wont survive
Dodgy financing
Behind crime scenes
Behind those crime scenes
Craigie Whytie
He’s the one that keeps the dream alive
from the morning
past the evening
to the end of the light
Brimful of Vodka and the police connive
Well it’s a brimful of Vodka while the hacks contrive
Brimful of Vodka while they take a dive
Well it’s a brimful of Vodka cause they wont survive
And singing
illuminates the polis beats
And the deleted polis files
We don’t care bout no
Government warnings,
’bout their protection of simple hun life
And the bams they’re building
Brimful of Vodka and the police connive
Well it’s a brimful of Vodka while the hacks contrive
Brimful of Vodka while they take a dive
Well it’s a brimful of Vodka cause they wont survive
Rangers needs a hoodlum for a pillow
Rangers needs a hoodlum
Rangers needs a hoodlum for a pillow
Rangers needs a hoodlum
Rangers needs a hoodlum for a pillow
Rangers needs a hoodlum
or huns will not survive
Rob Shorthouse wont survive
Alex Salmond wont survive
Clyde radio wont survive
Michael Johnstone wont survive
Impartial public wont survive
SFA and the SPL, the Heavy
Jabbers and the Chico music
BBC Radio shortbread wont survive
Sectarian crime counts wont survive
Baby huns wont survive
Glasgow Rangers wont survive
Brimful of Vodka and the police connive
Well it’s a brimful of Vodka while the hacks contrive
Brimful of Vodka while they take a dive
Well it’s a brimful of Vodka cause they wont survive
Rangers needs a hoodlum for a pillow
Rangers needs a hoodlum
Rangers needs a hoodlum for a pillow
Rangers needs a hoodlum
Rangers needs a hoodlum for a pillow
Rangers needs a hoodlum
or huns wont survive
seven seven thousand piece
Orchestrated setup
Rangers needs a hoodlum for a pillow
Taxe’s due to HRM!!
Brimful of Vodka and the police connive
Well it’s a brimful of Vodka while the hacks contrive
Brimful of Vodka while they take a dive
Well it’s a brimful of Vodka cause they wont survive
Rangers needs a hoodlum for a pillow
Rangers needs a hoodlum
Rangers needs a hoodlum for a pillow
Rangers needs a hoodlum
Rangers needs a hoodlum for a pillow
Rangers needs a hoodlum
or huns wont survive
Hail Hail
Fifa announce court win over Sion ban.
On 3 August 2011, the civil court of Martigny and St. Maurice ordered FIFA, FIFA subsidiary Transfer Matching System GmbH and the Swiss Football League (SFL) to allow six Olympique des Alpes SA (FC Sion) players to be fielded with immediate effect. The ruling was confirmed by the same judge on 27 September 2011. The decisions of the civil court resulted in numerous further proceedings as well as uncertainty with regard to the fielding of the players in national and international football.
In a ruling of 16 November 2011, the Valais cantonal court in Sion overturned the decision of the Civil Court of Martigny and St. Maurice of 3 August 2011 in its entirety and fully upheld the appeal submitted by FIFA and the SFL. The Cantonal Court has thus indirectly taken the same view as FIFA and the SFL and its ruling has indirectly confirmed the legality of the transfer ban FIFA imposed on Olympique des Alpes SA.
clanmalirtim at 12:30
Hatfield was also where I went. Usually quite quiet unless for hun games or European ones. For European games, I’d have went to Rose and Crown.
C67 is a godsend for me. I can wait until after the games and watch it “as live” as i don’t have Sky and can’t be bothered searching for links for home games.
Mort
AAAAARRRGGGHHHHH
I’ve been so busy working,I missed the new thread.
Need to take it easy this afternoon.
693 NOT 639
Imaprat.csc
Hail hail
Estadio
Paul67
Not sure how this fits in but it might be one step to understanding the situation –
Aggravated BOTP covers a numbers of categories / crimes.
Sectarian is only one of the categories of Upmarket / Aggravated BOTP.
In other forums I have read posts that suggest that the incidents / arrests / convictions relating to other categories would not have been scrubbed so quickly – after 24 months.
Any thoughts on this?
Is SA – BOTP treated differently from any of the other categories of Aggravated BOTP?
If yes then why?
Also even if the primary data has been scrubbed what about the results of FOI requests based on the data when it was less than 24 months old?
Do you know of any FOI requests relating to this data?
If yes when were they made, how were they handled and what were the results?
Also does the 24 month rule ongoing – week by week or does it relate to a calendar year or a financial years worth of data that is scrubbed at the one time?
Sorry for all the questions.
My resources are limited and I have no direct or indirect routes to get them answered.
Finally I would suggest 2007 is an important date.
Before then JMcC was making good if slow progress on the issue.
AS on the other hand punted it under the carpet as it was not what he wanted to hear as he tried to build his Tartanised kingdom out of shortbread.
Big issue in this could be the courts and their sectarian attitudes.
Long term problem could be the lock up rates of people with Irish sounding surnames compared to their more Scottish cousins – that is Norse / Norman / Anglo Saxon surnames.
Big Hun polis I used to know boasted about winning the station lottery when policing football games – lifting the person with the most “Oirish” sounding name / forenames were seemingly the way to win.
Consequently there may be quite a story in all of this if we look deep enough.
Another view (and a much better description as mine was done from memory)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15790225
hail Hail
Estadio
Sneddoni 12.13
Im afraid in Scotland the Law is answerable to no one.
See:
http://www.shirleymckie.com/
http://www.lockerbietruth.com/
http://holliedemandsjustice.org/
While I applaud the publication of this document,I can’t help feeling that it will make no difference,we could produce video footage,statements from people who’s word is undoubtedly trustworthy,offer irrefutable argument to back up our case,the powers that be,would still deny any inherent,sectarian bias.If a jury,furnished with video evidence,and given testimony from witnesses,can return a not proven verdict,why would we really believe that the scottish government would ever admit to scotlands real dirty secret?.
iki
They also changed ‘suffer fear and alarm’ to ‘believe a threat was likely to be carried out’
The police must be frothing at the mouth in anticipation at all the Celtic Supporters, they will be able to jail once this goes through… HH
————-Forster—————–
Cha Rogne Majstorovic Matthews
——Kayal Wanyama Ledley—–
Forrest———————Samaras
————–Stokes—————-
Subs. Zaluska Hooper Commons McCourt Ki Fraser El Kadourri
Win the battle, then bring on Hooper/Commons/McCourt if needed later in the game.
ICT 1 Celtic 3
When are we going to discuss the real issue ?
Manager: We’re prepared for Caley Thistle challenge
By: Laura Brannan on 18 Nov, 2011 11:32
INVERNESS Caledonian Thistle may be propping up the SPL, but their lack of points won’t lure Neil Lennon into a false sense of security.
He knows only too well how difficult a challenge the Highlanders pose against Celtic, especially on their home turf, and will be ready for the test come Saturday afternoon.
With his squad having reassembled following the international break, the Hoops boss is looking to build on the victory against Motherwell a fortnight ago, but with Thistle recording a remarkable 6-3 victory over Kilmarnock the same weekend, he expects to meet a confidence Inverness side.
“We’ve had them watched and done a bit of analysis of their last match against Kilmarnock and they were fantastic,” he said. “They were full of energy, full of quality and they could have scored more than six.
“Bearing in mind they’re playing at home as well, it’s going to be a tough proposition for us and we will have to be at our best. It is an early kick-off and some of our players have been away on international duty, so we’ve had to work very hard on them today and yesterday.”
The manager has been boosted by the return of Joe Ledley from injury, while Ki Sung Yueng, who was suffering from a virus, trained yesterday and will be assessed later today.
Cha Du Ri returned from international football with a hamstring injury, however, while Charlie Mulgrew, Glenn Loovens and Mo Bangura remain on the sidelines along with the long-term absentees.
With that in mind, the Celtic boss will include some of the Under-19s players who have been knocking on the first-team door this season. But considering James Forrest’s outstanding performances recently and the manner in which the young Bhoys have handled the step-up, the manager has no fears when it comes to calling on the teenagers.
“It’s something we’ve invested money and time in,” he said talking about the youth academy. “Already this season we’ve seen Marcus Fraser, Paul George and Dylan McGeouch make their debuts, albeit fleetingly, but they are around the cusp of the squad.
“There will be four or five of them travelling to Inverness and hopefully they stay around because they are doing so well. It’s a huge positive, but we have to be mindful to feed them in.
“We want them to be here long-term and not just make fleeting appearances here and there. Eventually we want them to be ready to come into the team and stay there.
“Things are going very well at Under-19 level and we have a few in the Development Squad who could take the next step so we are trying to feed them in gradually.”
Meanwhile, the manager has reiterated his comments earlier this week, asking the fans to continue their great support of the club against Inverness tomorrow in a positive manner.
“I love this club and I don’t want to see its name tarnished by a small minority of fans who aren’t doing the club any favours,” the Irishman said. “We’re already up on a charge and we’ll have to wait and see what that outcome is, but I have to say that our supporters are 99 percent second to none. They have a fantastic reputation and they do themselves, and the club, a credit.
“It’s something that isn’t doing us any favours, though, not just on the domestic stage but on the European stage too. I would plead to those people to just stop it now and just add to the colour and atmosphere like they always do.
“I hope the fans will listen to me because it’s important the club’s reputation is maintained on a consistent basis. It’s something we work very hard to keep away from the club, and the majority of people do that.
12 points behind a poor Rangers team
Interesting to read Celtic will not pay Brown’s agant fee. Up to the player then to decide how much he wants to be Celtic Captain.
Neil Lennon has said that demands made by Scott Brown’s agent are the sticking point over a new deal for the player.
The Scotland international midfielder is nearing the end of his current contract at Parkhead.
Talks began in the summer over an extension to Brown’s deal but the player has not yet committed to the club. The 26-year-old can speak to other clubs from January and Lennon admitted that it was a worry that he could lose the player on a free.
“Well it isn’t a major concern but I think it’s going to become a case where we need to sit down and see what he’s thinking,” Lennon said.
“Everything has been agreed but there is a discrepancy with the agent’s fees and we’re not prepared to pay that.
LET THE PEOPLE SINGH.
I’m surprised they didnt manage to lose these figures as well!
Estadio – you are hoping in vain regarding the SNP – read their worded response to these figures – they dont mention the catholic bit. They dont want to admit where the problem lies. And ALL the action is actually being taken against catholics and celtic supporters.
Go figure.
Only in Scotland could the subjigated minority be targeted by legislation which should be designed to protect them.
Scotlands Shame indeed………
Now this is a cracking story.
My life as an Estonian football coach – the fan who bluffed for Ireland
An Irish football fan scored a goal of his own and set off on a fantasy football adventure when he bluffed his way into the Ireland v Estonia match last Friday without a ticket.
Conor Cunningham, 27, got into the game on Friday night and managed to bag himself a seat next to Estonian manager Tarmo Ruutli.
He then stood up close to Robbie Keane and Keith Andrews as they did TV interviews in the tunnel.
And it was all down to a “borrowed” Estonian tracksuit.
“I was just determined to see the match – 11 of us arrived in Tallinn for the game and we were being quoted 600 euros for tickets,” he said.
“In the end, 10 of us got into the stadium – but I definitely got the best story and photos.”
The part-time fitness instructor from Cork tried to pretend he was a security guard to gain admission. When that did not work, he spotted an open doorway and thought it might lead into the ground.
“It was a corridor and a dead end. But I did see a bag of footballs and, when I picked them up, spotted an Estonian tracksuit underneath them. He pulled it on and walked into the stadium.
He went to the Estonian dug-out and realised he was sitting next to the manager. After a while, he was spotted and told to move.
“When the match was over and Ireland had qualified, I said I’d chance my arm and I walked out on to the pitch. I celebrated with the players, shook hands with them all and even asked a few could I have their jerseys.
“They were all really nice — they apologised and said they’d already promised the jerseys to friends and family. But Keith Andrews said I could have his – though I didn’t get to see him again after they went into the dressing room,” he said.
Eventually an Estonian team official got suspicious about how a man in an Estonian tracksuit was celebrating with the Irish so much.
“She came over to me and started talking to me and I just said I had to bring the bag of footballs back,” he said.
Outside the stadium, he told his friends about his adventure, then posted a video to the Irish Independent.
Estadio
“Draw your own inferences. Mine tend towards the positive view of the Scottish Governments efforts and a modicum of hope for the continued evolution of our species in Scotland.”
It’s difficult to draw those same conclusions when offences have gone up 10 percent in the year.
It would be easier to draw the conclusion that the Scottish government have made the situation worse, especially for protestants.
overseasbhoy at 12:51
Discuss away. No one on this blog has a monopoly over the topics for debate.
Mort
I find it incredulous, that in the 21st Century, The Crown Office can lose 7 years of data on sectarian hate crime. What else did they lose? Expense accounts? Bank details?
This is a serious matter and an independent investigation should be underway. They call us paranoid – the political establishment is corrupt and diseased from top to bottom.
Overseasbhoy – can we pick any one issue and regard all the rest as unecessary?
My life at the moment is dominated by the up coming strike on 30th November. Doesn’t mean that my childrens education, wife’s happiness, my love for Celtic are not issues.
We are capable of discussing many things.
Let’s hear what you have to say about the 12 points behind Rangers. My opinion? Totally unacceptable, self inflicted, poor decisions at management level, poor decisions in the transfer market, poor application by some players at times.
But it doesn’t stop me being angry at the victimisation of our supporters by the authorities in an attempt to drag us in to their mire, their hate and their problem.
Nor does it distract or deflect me from doing what I can to strike back at the ConDem coalition and Finance fraternity who wish to transfer our wealth to their bank accounts.
Nor will any of this distract me from having a nice evening out with the Mrs tonight or spending time with the children tomorrow.
I think most people can do that.
So if you want to discuss the 12 points I don’t think anyone will have a problem. But likewise I think the issue of Celtic supporters potentially going to jail or getting criminal records or the name of ou club being repeatedly and unfairly sullied is any less important than the 12 point gap (which of course includes a game in hand that should reduce the gap to 9 points which IMO is not quite to insurmountable a lead.
Awra best
Yesterday all I read after the Anthony Stokes press conference was rubbish from the Laptop Loyal raging they could not quiz him about ‘illicit chanting’ and what he said aboout racism!
Nice to know football was discussed…
“I’m surprised by the points gap but there will always be a period in a season where a team will have a rocky patch. Maybe we’ve got ours out of the way,” commented Stokes.
“Rangers have been on a great run since the start of the season but there will come a time when they will drop points. It’s inevitable that will happen. So we just need to concentrate on ourselves.
“With three Old Firm games still to come you never know what might happen.”
Celtic were upset on home soil by St Johnstone earlier this season and Stokes believes it was games like that which have temporarily derailed their title challenge.
He said: “I think back to the St Johnstone defeat at home earlier in the season. How many chances did we have in that game?
“We hit the post two or three times in the second half. On another day that could have been four or five goals.
“So there have been games this season when we have created chances but not put them away.
“The points gap is down to an accumulation of things, not taking our chances in games and being a bit slack defensively.
“I don’t really know why we’re 12 points behind – if I knew I’d tell the gaffer! We really just need to find consistency in our game and keep winning.
“In the last two matches we’ve done reasonably well, picked up the points and just have to kick on from there now.”
Kayal 33 I’d be happy with that team and shape.
Newrad – LOL
Twinbhoy at 12:59
Imagine they lost details of prisoners out on bail and were therefore unable to find out who should go to trial for any number of cases.
And for the SNP to decide it needs a new law to deal with sectarianism without even having any evidence (over 7 years) to decide what should go in it is utterly baffling.
Mort
My late dad always used to insist that the P in SNP did not really stand for Party.
As always I doff my cap to the old chap; he is being proven to be more correct by the day.
All joking aside I have heard that the 2 indian boys that Ratners are looking at have excellent delivery
Barkis is willing, and philvis is busy?
Modern IT systems will have the data on disk, virtual tape and probably physical tape, there is probably a copy lying in Iron Mountain somewhere. Not to mention all the usb’s, laptops etc. Lost – My Erse!
Paul67
the issue of police statistics is as clear as mud. What constitutes an incident? This can vary from officer to officer let alone force areas. Lots of mythology has arisen in recent years around these stats: ‘domestic violence incidents increase at the weekend of derby games’, there is no clear link, is the increase related to the fact that there are a significantly higher number of officers available to respond to calls? Do the number of housebreaking incidents or vandalism increase?
Look at the current issue around the Borders Agency, when are officers encouraged to turn a blind eye in Scotland?
A match commander reports ‘illicit songs’ to UEFA, not SPL, Celtic or his own force, how often has that happened before?
When an incident leads to arrest is that for a sectarian offence? How often do these arrests lead to conviction?
Police stats only reference reported incidents (either by members of the public or the officers themselves, many crimes/offences go unreported, how closely do police stats reflect reality?
Finally, as an example of the above, how many incidents occurred in Manchester? How many arrests? How many convictions? Compare and contrast with the summer riots.
Kittoch,
50p charge?
Kayal33
A fit Commons is our best player by a country mile. In saying that, Samaras the last two games has done the business. It takes a lot for me to say that, as I have made my feelings about him known on here a few times…
The Crown Office (or the SFA for that matter) shouldn’t be resting on their laurels. Any geek knows that deleting files and even emptying the trashcan doesn’t delete the files, it merely induces the computer’s memory to forget where it put them. A friend of mine runs a company which rescues said ‘deleted’ files. He was interviewed in the Guardian here http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/nov/04/data-recovery-deleted-coursework
Can’t wait any longer for Imatim’s normal daily blessing so I’m away out for a lunchtime stroll and for a wee prayer on my own…
Paul67 – brilliant article and certainly not lazy journalism.
Jobo
angelfc67,
50p charge??
Where do you live??
at least a quid if not £1.50 here…..or so Ive been told………ahem…….
HAIL! HAIL!
Token
Excellent stuff Paul, you’re continuing to lead the way.
In respect of the BBC figures, this data is a joke eg “Police officers were the most common victims of religious hate crime, accounting for 42% of the incidents.”
So, the police arrest a hun who typically responds by calling the officer a fen… bassa. Whereas, a catholic is arrested and doesn’t call the officer a prod.. bassa. What does that tell us about the prevalence of sectarianism in Scotland? That the police don’t like being called fenians or bassas…that’s it!
The low figure relating to marches is only an indication that the huns are allowed to get away with it on these occasions.
I’m sure there are many other relevant comments to make.
KTF
ASonOfDan says:
18 November, 2011 at 13:06
Kayal33
A fit Commons is our best player by a country mile. In saying that, Samaras the last two games has done the business. It takes a lot for me to say that, as I have made my feelings about him known on here a few times…
______________________________________________________________
ASonOfDan
Your not wrong. He’s had 2 weeks of the international break to get right up to speed, lets hope he has the same second half of the season he had the last.
Paul67
Interesting piece,
in relation to the 48 easily offended offenders can I ask are they all still practising MSPs and or serving Police Officers?