I loved the Newco statement from yesterday evening, it betrayed the reality that they’ve lost their nerve in the face of panic among fans and a complete lack of knowledge of what to do about History overtaking them.
They cited that the SPFL had a conference call on the subject of the Court of Session Oldco EBT ruling, but quickly got onto the subject that “our Club’s (sic.) history, including its many successes, is beyond debate”.
Those of us who supported another team during the EBT decade know well that history is beyond debate. We paid money to see those competitions and there will be no denying what happened.
At a stroke Newco took a debate, which was hitherto the exclusive domain of fan comment and the occasional journalist repeating the words of well-paid Newco and Ladbrokes SPFL PR team, that there was “no appetite” for title stripping, and made it a subject football people could legitimately be drawn on. In short, they made Rangers historical successes THE debate.
I’ve spoken to Celtic on various potential public statement matters over the years. They don’t always get it right, but they know when to shut their mouth and win support for their objectives, at the cost of taking flak for not making grandstanding public comments.
Tommo Blog.
While many paid to inform us were repeating paid PR as news, Channel 4’s Alex Thomson had no qualms calling-out the cheats in his blog yesterday: Rangers cheated at football: the fraudulent silverware must go. And that was just the blog title.
Oh Mr Black! The Rangers v HMRC First Tier Tribunal was held in private, with witness names given anonymity in the written report. Mr Black, the name of a key figure at Rangers, who signed and sold up to 400 footballers, and, I guess, took a senior role from late 1988 until 6 May 2011, provided damning evidence against the former football club at the Tribunal.
Thomson writes:
“Why did this powerful but busy character introduce a scheme of wholesale – and now proven to be unlawful – avoidance of NI and income tax?
Why – so the club could gain advantage on the pitch, of course: sporting advantage. By attracting and keeping players they otherwise could not afford. How do we know?
Because the powerful but talkative “Mr Black” was good enough to spill the beans to the Tax Tribunal: “Mr Black did not consider the Trust as a means of tax avoidance, but rather as a means of retaining and rewarding loyal employees. So far as Rangers was concerned it enabled the Club to attract players who would not otherwise have been obtainable.”
Sporting advantage.”
““Mr Black” didn’t see it as a tax wheeze at all, he said, but a football wheeze. Sadly for him if you’re now found to have been cheating the taxman you’re also cheating football – so now his unfortunate admission is a smoking gun
There is more: “As for Mr Black, he denied that the scheme was for tax avoidance in cross-examination, though he went on to describe the scheme as ‘a method of us acquiring, especially football wise, better players in a more cost effective manner than we would be able to do so’; that the club had been ‘very ambitious at that time’; and ‘it was seen as a correct and proper way for us to proceed’; that Rangers ‘have been very successful, because we’ve been able to attract players of a certain standard that, perhaps, we may not have been able to otherwise’.”
One more time: “especially football wise better players in a more cost effective manner”. Sporting. Advantage.”
“It is time Campbell Ogilvie explained his conduct – the man who played a part in the tax avoidance and personally benefited before going on to be SFA President.
It is time Sir David Murray – the conductor of this disastrous orchestration, by overseeing EBTs at Rangers – is similarly held to account for what he did and now, why Rangers did it for advantage on the field: cheating.
Above all, it is time the SPFL members came out from Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen and beyond to denounce cheating as cheating and take action as fans from Kelso to Thurso are begging them to do.
All the titles and silverware from all the years Rangers cheated at football, as they cheated at tax, must be null and void and wiped from the record.
Let nobody try and tell me it isn’t the same club – I have always said it is and now Rangers have to take the consequence of that reality right on the chin.
Turnbull Hutton RIP – how your godforsaken Scottish game needs you now.”
‘Mr Black’ really has dropped Sir David Murray in it. I hope he stays away from Charlotte Square. This situation reminds me of that scene from Blazing Saddles, where the sheriff turns his gun on himself. Alerts in advance for the use of racial pejoratives, appropriate for the environment, in this clip:
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Ernie Lynch
It would appear they do, unfortunately and inexcusably.
http://www.celticfc.net/news/8137
When I phoned the SLO about it, I was told, “Well, that’s what they’re called”, ignoring the fact that there was absolutely no need to mention “Rangers” in the article.
They don’t even call themselves “Rangers” officially, as can be seen from the RIFC website. . . “The Rangers Football Club”.
Not much of a distinction for an extinction, but better than nothing.
sorry – Clyde, Sportsound and the Daily Record are cold-calling as many ex-players as they can from that era, in order to further their “titles were won fair and square on the field” tripe.
This is a crossroads for Scottish football – there is no going back – the carpet is already touching the ceiling with what has be brushed under in the past.
Over any period of time, CQN posters are particularly drawn to a given topic. This dies down and another topic takes centre stage. The current (!) topic is far, far too important to go the same way as the others. We must hold fire until any chance of an appeal has gone. On this one, at this time, I am with Celtic in not making any comments. Especially if it were made unilaterally.
Hopefully I am not going against my own suggestion here but what would CQNers prefer:
1) Stripped of their titles/trophies but Newco are considered to be the same Club;
2) Oldco keep the titles but the present Club are declared a new Club?
JJ
MEA CULPA
Great stuff,bud.
MR PASTRY
You too,so there you go. Maybe this fiasco will unite us.
Diedco should ask for previous offences to be taken into consideration,ask yourself,how did Paul Gascoigne end up playing for them? He could have named his club.
“They don’t even call themselves “Rangers” officially, as can be seen from the RIFC website. . . “The Rangers Football Club”
Beatbhoy,
So why do you call us ‘celtic’?
Well titles can be stripped no matter what the media say……..just ask Juventus. However the delusional in here had better think again if they think the stripped Hun titles are going to be handed to Celtic wether they finished second or not. The precedent was set when the titles won by Juventus were withheld rather than awarded to any disadvantaged club. Other clubs could now turn round and say that results inflicted upon them during the Huns EBT years had an adverse effect on them coming second in championships and took away any chance of winning either the Scottish or League cups. It seems to me that a lot of people are putting a lot of time and effort into something that ain’t going to happen.
And does anyone know of any Italian fan groups or club shareholders that were compensated for the cheating that went on ?
Stripped of their titles for that period
Recognised as a new club
A new independant federation to run football, EBT recipients and cheats need not apply
Cut no deals with cheats.
Bada,
Aye I think this went on longer than many think.
HH
JUNGLEJIMHS
Me,I would like their titles stripped and The Asterix Years left as a permanent reminder of what corruption can do to sport.
Then for them to be told in no uncertain terms that they cannot be the same club,their history is history,and that rules are rules. As a permanent reminder of what corruption can do to society.
As an addition,I would love every guilty journalist to make a written apology for pushing the above agenda when it was clearly against the law.
!BADA BING!
I recall a TALKSPORT interview with Gazza a few years back when he said that he wasn’t skint as he had a couple of million offshore.
I hope he’s remembered his spade and bucket this time.
JJHS
I’ll go for the Truth option
Sevco is a new club, as no one disputes the ‘Company’ is in Liquidation, and thanks to the 1899 incorporation, so is Rangers FC. So where’s the confusion?
Rangers(1872-2012) have been found guilty of tax evasion, meaning they were cheating over a decade, effectively stealing titles and trophies. Criminals can’t keep their ill-gotten gains, can they?
No innocent until proven guilty points here, please. They have been found guilty, as have many criminals who are in jail awaiting an appeal. No one tiptoes round their guilt.
So JJ, new club and title-stripping of the old club for greedy old me, thanks.
Stripping titles but regarding them as the same club is straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.
Utter nonsense but likely to become their fall-back position.
Clumpany Guy: Thanks for another spiffing piece.
It occurs to me that there’s a good case for Sevco to be allowed to continue to sell strips with ‘stars’: rather conveniently, there are 5 league titles which fall into the EBT period.
So 5 asterisks it is.
Another world record … !
VIP
CheatGate update:
Had Celtic not succumbed by a single point in 2010-11, they would now be sitting on a world record of 15 (and still counting) national football league championship wins, level with Tafea FC, who won the first 15 Vanuatu football league championship titles (a run that has now ended). If Celtic, as expected, win the SPL title this season, that would (but for 2010-11) have been their (new) world record 16th title in a row.
[Vanuatu is a South Pacific island about half the size of Wales and with a total population smaller than that of Bradford.]
Just contacted William Hill and asked them to terminate my account and details. When asked why “was I not happy with the service” I told them there’s not much use betting in Scotland if its a crooked game. He knew what team I was referring to.
spreadthewordCSC
Good Celtic Men? lambert? Sutton? O’Neil? Away you go! Good players and manager…. never Celtic men…
replace them with mcStay, Hay and McGrain
And another thing.
The EBTs have rightly been struck down as having no basis in reality, as being no more than a concoction, a fantasy, a falsehood whose only justification was that they were commercially and financially expedient for those involved.
That’s exactly the same reasoning used to justify the same club narrative. Everyone knows they’re a new club but it’s expedient to pretend otherwise.
Not for me. I’ll be spending my time and money elsewhere if that’s how things are going to be with Scottish football.
BMCUW
I wonder If I could pee a couple of million up against a wall and look as well as he does??
…of course, if the ten EBT years were 2001-2 thru 2010-11 (rather than 2000-1 thru 2009-10… I’m not completely sure exactly which seasons were affected), then Celtic are already on 15 IAR and counting.
PHILBHOY
Or die trying….
Geordie
I don’t call us ‘celtic’ , as that’s an adjective, mate.
You want me to use Pacific Shelf instead?
Hearing the word ‘Celtic’ won’t have 276 creditors spewing at those who stiffed them carrying on regardless, unlike some inexactly named club.
Re EBTs being legal.. – What I say to the H*ns is if i walked down the street with tiger on a leash someone would call the police… if they arrivedd I would tell then it w
as a dog…. “Oh thats alright then. ! On your way”
PS Suttons last season he never tried.. Lambert had his 2 years coaching paid for a s a celtic player! neither player would have came near celtic if we did pay very well.. PS I though bouth were great when fit and gave 100%
Jobo
But is it a tainted podium and should it be stripped?
:o))))
interesting…………………
TheTributeAct Retweeted
Edgar Blamm @EdgarBlamm 2h2 hours ago
Remember back in 2012 when a panicked Alastair Johnson issued his “Point within a circle” masonic cry for help?
https://twitter.com/TheTributeAct
bankiebhoy
Brazen Blazing Blazers
GM-BMCUW-Trevor Steven sold to Marseilles for £5.5 mil,brought back about a year later for £1.5 mil? Great bit of business the SMSM told us at the time……I smell shoite….
mickbhoy1888
Tavecchio: ‘Calciopoli crimes were real’
On 9 September 2015, the Supreme Court released a 150 page document that explains its final ruling of the case. Despite that Moggi’s remaining charges were cancelled without a new trial due to statute of limitations, the court made clear that Moggi’s unwarranted activities incurred significant damage to Italian football not only in sporting, but also in economic terms. In the document, the court confirms that Moggi was actively involved in the sporting fraud which was intended to favour Juventus and increase his own personal benefits. (Wiki: Serie A).
You can now download the ‘final’ ruling in pdf format. From reading about this case (on occasions) – it would appear that there were a myriad of civil cases pending the Italian Supreme Court’s ruling.
For me its a simple viewpoint
The titles must be declared void and not awarded but retrospective claims for loss of earnings must be allowed.
you will find a certain club will pass claims to bdo …… and with that there admission that they died.
because if the want to be the same they must then take the damages clains on board in the present day …. this means liquidation 2
Whatever way they want. …. of course do the sfa have the balls.
celtic could add an small* in the title role with a note of years affected saying no prize awarded due to corruption
jungle jim
Hopefully I am not going against my own suggestion here but what would CQNers prefer:
1) Stripped of their titles/trophies but Newco are considered to be the same Club;
2) Oldco keep the titles but the present Club are declared a new Club
————————-
get your point mate
do not deals
with cheats id say
theY aRE new club
those titles need STRIPPED
THEY ARE LAUGHING AT US
EVERYDAY
BBC news yesterday.
“The entire London olympics has been tainted by cheating by Russian athletes”
Meanwhile, referring to Rangers;
“the saga that wont go away”
Bigchipsuk
They still hadn’t coughed for the Discount Option Scheme illegal payments (undisputed) by 2010-11, so were not paying social taxes owed, gaining an unsporting advantage ( not my wording, but excellent), so cheating, so feel free to add it in as we go for 16-in-a-row!
Mibbe we could get a few mibs into court as well for giving the huns an unsporting advantage.
Pile it on I say!!!!
Eyes Wide Open on 10th November 2015 1:57 pm
Indeed. The only ones who want it all to ‘go away’ are the perpetrators who stand on the edge of the abyss and their acolytes such as the BBC.
As for the SFA/SPFL, not exacting appropriate punishment would be to condone the cheating. For them it must be an agonising quandary, like turning one of your own family in to the police ,but for the future of Scottish football ,the bullet must be bit.
Titles must be stripped.
“You want me to use Pacific Shelf instead?”
Beatbhoy,
Easy tiger. That’s some tangent you’ve just shot off on there :)
No. Just our proper name.
Calling them ‘Rangers’ is not admitting they are the same club in my book.
HH
Praecepta
I had noted that from Wikipedia
I also noted that Inter were declared Champions for the 2005-2006 season however this only seems to have been awarded by the FIGC under the threat of sanctions from UEFA for not declaring the final standings for that season to allow them to administer the Following seasons Champions League. The League title was withheld from the season before. I can see the Scottish football authorities adopting the same stance as the FIGC took for the 2004-2005 season and withholding any titles deemed to have been won under a sporting advantage. I am not going to lose any sleep over that and I imagine that a large majority of the Celtic support will be the same