I’m not about to give you a character reference for Aleksandar Tonev, he may be prone to racist outburst, for all I know. Society, and therefore football, still has a racism problem, just read how coolly Luis Suarez played addressing an opponent as “negro”. The game has to react firmly when presented with racist banners, which regularly appear in Eastern Europe.
On the balance of probabilities, would a born-and-bred Scottish international be judged to have made a racist remark during a game against an opponent he doesn’t share a common tongue with?
If Kenny Miller was similarly accused and claimed to be misquoted, how would you feel? Scottish footballers just don’t have a history of this kind of remark; I’d be inclined to believe Miller. So, I expect, would Scottish football.
Tonev comes from one of those Eastern European countries. Scottish football acknowledged it had no evidence to act on but found him guilty.
Based in just as little evidence, could you please decide if Scottish football is guilty of racist generalisation in its handling of this matter? I know you don’t have enough evidence to come to a proper decision, but that’s the point.
Maybe if Aleks was at Ibrox on Tuesday making flute band gestures to TV cameras at halftime, the like of which Scottish Government minster Roseanna Cunningham once insisted was unacceptable and illegal, we’d all realise he didn’t mean any harm. Or was it just the Sign of the Cross, Ms Cunningham?
But Tonev’s not “one of us”, so who cares?
The auction for two debenture hospitality seats, which started our bid to build a fourth school kitchen in Malawi for Mary’s Meals ended a few minutes ago. Thanks to everyone who bid, the winner paid £295, a fantastic gesture. Thanks also to Celtic sponsor, Magners, for pulling things together for us and making it happen.
We have a couple of slightly less-illustrious premium seats for tomorrow in the Jock Stein stand from Magners, which you can win by answering the following question:
Which team do Celtic play tomorrow?
This competition is only open for an hour, closes at 2:0, so those who enter have an excellent chance. Keep an eye on your inbox this afteroon. If you’d like to donate £1 to the kitchen fund in tandem with your entry, you can do so here.
Terms and Conditions apply.
It’s a great read, you’ll enjoy it.
1,193 Comments- Pages:
- «
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
- 5
- 6
- 7
- 8
- 9
- 10
- ...
- 32
- »
I’m picking up a bit of a buzz from guys I’m speaking to today about tomorrows game.
Is it because the team look to have found their feet?
Guidetti looks a star in the making?
First Saturday 3pm kick off for like ages?
All 3…or something else?
HH
Diarra used to be a very good player.
No idea how good he is now.
Ally McMoist.
“”I don’t think it’s unfair, but then I don’t necessarily agree with it. I can understand where he is coming from.
“In most cases, you would think a team from a lower division that is left in a competition with three teams from the league above is the weaker side.
“Ronny would be 100% right in his beliefs if it was a normal playing field. But I don’t think anyone can argue that, in recent years, Scottish football has been anything but a normal playing field.
And he then goes on to quote this little piece of magic………..
“We have got three of the top five clubs in the country playing in the division below the top flight.”
WHIT????????????????????
The four letter epithet is only relevant in considering the probability that Tonev used it. Since probability and not certainty is the yardstick used to convict Tonev we are all entitled to speculate about whether he would be likely to have used the word.
That word is not the racist element, but then again is calling someone black any worse than calling say Jim Goodwin baldy, in those circumstances. When someone has just kicked you up the erchie, it is purely name calling in the same way that calling them a big eared, lanky, bandy, baldy, ginger, etc whatever. Ask Neil Lennon about swearing at Jim Goodwin. Things said in haste and in anger are not rational, rather they are impulsive and reactive.
Logan can of course be telling the truth, but can still be mistaken in what he heard. But apparently, there is no question that he could have misheard or be mistaken. I mean after all, he told his captain what he heard….Lord help us.
The SFA have once again shown their incompetence to govern. On such a serious issue, they believe the compelling evidence that Logan spoke to his captain at the time, is a clear indicator that he was telling the truth, and that since Tonev apparently didn’t speak to anyone at the time, then he must be lying. Tonev was presumed guilty unless he could prove his innocence, but how was Aleks Tonev to prove his innocence? He denied it forcefully at the time and at every opportunity since. However, just like Logan he had no direct witness to what either of them said at the time. What, if anything, did Logan say to Tonev?
The precedent set by this bizarre conviction is astonishing. To prove guilt, you merely have to allege that someone called you a bad name, even though no one else heard it. On the basis of this case, you will be believed and the other person convicted.
That is bad enough, but as other have said, set against the SFA’s record of failure to convict on clearer evidence of guilt, they allow no one to have any confidence in their procedures or decisions.
The SFA probably use “balance of probabilities” as their standard of proof, but even by that standard, they have stretched to convict one man based entirely on the word of another, someone who has a vested interest in seeing his own complaint vindicated and Tonev punished.
I hope Paul McBride’s expertise lives on in another solicitor/barrister, because this conviction appears bizarrely unjust, and should be overturned on appeal.
The SFA would prefer to be called unjust rather than risk being accused of condoning racism.
I expect a flood of complaints that cannot be substantiated, but for which the complainants have a very high expectation of vindication.
It’s called being Toneved.
Just in case any of our younger readers are getting the wrong idea about the past, I was also in the Jungle on the night we played Real Madrid with Laurie Cunningham.
I do not recall any monkey noises being made. There are highlights available on You Tube including clips of Laurie Cunningham on the ball and these chants are not audible.
Celtic fans certainly were guilty of this against Mark Walters. I was proud that The Pavilion production of the Celtic Story some months afterwards included the Walters incident with a strong moral message of recognising our own history as immigrants.
Some appear to have failed to learn those lessons.
Diarra is a ready-made defensive midfielder, and is very good at it(or was). I’d view him like I did Graig Gordon — a steal if he is fit.
So how old is Racism?
Or is it just the modern version we now seek to address? Racism is alive and well in some form or other, and at different degrees, in probably every country in the world.
Anti- Irish racism is evident in Scotland 2014, but I take it that one doesnt count.
Ok then lets go back pre 1989 when the so called biggest institution after the COS operated a policy of apartheid, condoned by both Government, COS and SFA. But that was only football and anyway was dealt with after 90 years in operation.
How about going back 250 years then to a time when Glasgow was being built on the back of slave labour, when Britain led the way in arguably the biggest human tragedy ever, the slave trade, and interestingly when Scotland supplied the new American nation with the most cruel and tyranical plantation managers as well as the man who gave birth to the KKK.
But no, lets concentrate on stuff which happens nowadays, like Balkan and Eastern European ethnicity problems, where blacks and gypsies are targets for racists, blacks sometimes at football matches.
Aleks Tonev should be taking this all the way. If he was German he’d have got 3 games ( thats if guilty).
It makes me sick to see this country of all countries stereotyping a man from Bulgaria, when the country he is tried in not only has a very dark past, but a hidden shame at present.
The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.
Apparently Police Scotland contacted both Aberdeen FC and Logan asking if they wished to make a formal complaint against Tonev. Both club and player declined.
Is it normal for the police to go down this root?
Sorry if this has been brought up, but I am very disturbed that someone can be accused and found guilty of an offence without any evidence? Does this not open a can of worms for anyone who simply does not like another person of another team to possibly scar and ruin another persons’ career.
Also, how can the SFA justify such actions when their president (Campber Ogilvie) operated and implemented a sectarian( and in my view racist) policy of Glasgow Rangers in finding out the religion of all possible signings to ensure no-one of the Catholic faith played for and was employed by Rangers.
Diarra is certainly the type of player we need. Experienced and can help us keep possession and protect the defense. If he isn’t past it.
Sorry, I was so excited by finding the quote I was looking for that I just pasted and posted.
We’ve all done things in the past that we now know are wrong, the crux is whether we have learned from it and whether we would repeat our actions, if we were placed in the same situation.
“The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.”
Can,t believe someone put Liam Henderson on a list of players we might let go
he should be a regular starter 20 times the player Mcgregor is,and has been treated terribly by RD,just look how much we improved when mcgregor was taken off on wed,s,the guy seems to be the golden boy ,unable to be dropped,he is a good player and will get better but
needs resting
Good Afternoon.
The Tonev hearing was legally chaired and took some considerable time.
The position from Celtic is quite clear.
There is no suggestion that the Aberdeen player in question is being anything but truthful in saying what he thought he heard. He genuinely believes he has a grievance and reported it properly.
However, Aleksander Tonev is adamant that he made no racist remark whatsoever. His version of events, the way in which they have been expressed, described and explained — together with the timing of the very first explanation through to the hearing itself lead Celtic to the conclusion that Tonev absolutely and utterly believes that the Aberdeen player is mistaken in saying that Tonev said anything like what has been described.
It should also be explained that Celtic had legally qualified personnel present at the hearing and that Tonev was separately and independently represented, and will be again at any appeal hearing.
The test of “guilt or innocence” in the SFA is “on the balance of probabilities” and it is the same for every hearing and every category of offence.
Accordingly whether someone’s tackle merits a yellow or a red card is decided on the balance of probabilities.
Whether someone simulated an offence or not is based on the balance of possibilities.
Had Tonev stabbed Logan would be judged on the balance of probabilities rather than beyond a reasonable doubt as would be the case in a criminal trial.
I believe that the law should be the same for everyone and I do not look at this case through green tinted spectacles — if Tonev said something of a racist nature then he should be condemned for it.
However, this charge is not or should not be judged as a subjective test where you go on your hunch or feeling.
In my opinion, no one should ever be damned or convicted of this kind of allegation unless the judge or panel can be reasonably sure that the allegation has been proven. If there is doubt, if there is a lack of corroboration or simply an insufficiency of evidence then the accusation should not be found proven on any basis.
In this regard, the SFA need to have a look at their rules.
I am told that there were those present who say that the decision leaves them feeling very uncomfortable.
There is only the word of Shay Logan to go on with absolutely nothing to back up his interpretation of events. Things are made even harder when no one thinks that Logan is trying to make something up – he heard someone say something.
However, Tonev appears equally reasonable in saying whatever it was that was said, if anything, was not said by him. No one has any evidence of hearing him say the words and there is no video or other evidence that shows him saying the alleged words.
As I say, this leads to an uncomfortable reaction to the decision as it was clearly not clear cut.
Celtic apparently genuinely believe their player to be innocent having investigated themselves.
The test of beyond a reasonable doubt does apply in some civil cases and it is there for a reason and so should not be ignored.
In many respects the system is now on trial because I have to ask whether or not it is acceptable that a charge that is semi criminal in nature should be allowed to be proven solely on the basis of an allegation and one single strand of evidence with nothing to back it up — not hearsay, past history, prior conduct, third party opinion– nothing.
If there is any upside to this it might just be that the case highlights just how unfair and unjust bad law can be, and how it can easily lead to a potential miscarriage of justice or a conviction that makes the onlooker uncomfortable.
The OBA act obviously comes to mind.
Hamiltontim
15:30 on 31 October, 2014
Apparently Police Scotland contacted both Aberdeen FC and Logan asking if they wished to make a formal complaint against Tonev. Both club and player declined.
Is it normal for the police to go down this root?
————————————————-
Depends. What club does Tonev play for…?
timaloy29
15:18 on
31 October, 2014
Diarra used to be a very good player.
No idea how good he is now.
He was better than very good,but as you say,I have not seen him play for a while.Hopefully the term,”You never lose it”applies to him.
Wee bit of a hiccup,I read,with his last club.
HT,
I’d imagine so neebs.
If your star witness isn’t willing to pursue the case you’d have some job making it stick.
Or are ye meaning for them to stick their neb in without complaint?! In that case…no idea :)
kevjungle – murdo macleod’s title winning boots 4-2 legend
15:03 on 31 October, 2014
I stood in the Jungle when, monkey noises were aimed at
Viv Anderson and Mark Walters.
Does that make the Jungle racists?
If so?
I’m in.
#############################
I’m Spartacus….!
Ayrshire is Green and White
lawwellsacountant
A tad harsh on McGregor. 20 times better is a lot! He has scored a lot of goals for a youngster. I do however think Henderson deserves a chance. I trust Ronny though to put him in when he feels he is ready.
LB
Brth,
Very informative. Cheers.
The difference for me with yellow/red. Bad challenge and simulation is its usually captured on camera for us to see and is usually more open and shut.
Then it’s up to the colour of your specs ;)
The Tonev case raises an interesting question and that is how would you deal with that situation if you were the supposed victim?
Personally I think I would laugh it off and slag the perpetrator throughout the game in front of his teammates and put a few hard tackles in,if it really bothered me that much I’d be telling him he was getting a slap after the game n chapping the opposing team door but if the supposed perpetrator is definately guilty I’d laugh at him for being a backwards racist but this is all in the context of being a pro footballer and btw this is how I would handle it and don’t advocate that for others.
Problem is the lack of evidence in this case and how the SFA has come to its decision which isn’t unique where Celtic are concerned and that is why I would say if you don’t like it,don’t go to Hampden,ever.
twobobsworthcsc
With apologies to MWD…..
Having just flicked back since my last comment around six hours or so ago,it seems that nothing much has changed re Tonev.
I thought it might be an idea to compile a wee list.
It is based entirely on the evidence presented to date by all of the people at the game-fans,media,players and assorted cameras.
There are four categories,feel free to add your name to the one which best suits your opinion.
A-Guilty
B-Not guilty
C-Erm,that it
D-I wish to join the latest witch-hunt to prove how politically correct I am.
Hamiltontim
15:09 on
31 October, 2014
BRTH
Brilliant J, that really brought a lump to my throat.
HT — You and Mynx are not mentioned by name in that post but your friendship with Stephen and Leona was certainly in mind as were many other friendships which have been forged and strengthened over the course of these campaigns.
This afternoon I spoke to a friend of mine for 30 years and we were chatting about Vanessa etc. Now this is a guy who has his own remarkable charity story to tell. He is a great guy with no airs nor graces, no fancy titled job or special standing in life.
He works with his hands so to speak.
When I mentioned Vanessa and Yompa etc coming to the park tomorrow he butted in and said ” Stop — I will greet like a baby. I might not even go if they are going because I will lose it!”
Soon enough you will get to hear of his astonishing contribution to good causes.
But there are other Vanessa’s, Mackenzie’s and Oscar’s out there and for every Chris and Connie there are lot’s more Steve and Leona’s, Harry and Mary’s, Joe and Jennifers — who all have children who need not only medical care of the most extreme kind but also the Yompas, Mouldies, Kris and Lisa’s, Helen and Chris’ types
So — Text THEA77 £x to 70070
or visit the Just giving page.
Just had a peek on the Aberdeen fans forum.
Few naughty words on there so not for kids but they are mostly not happy.
http://www.afc-chat.co.uk/forums/index.php?s=ad2b4f4d9704a4307d0de9b67226897a&showtopic=37601
LB
Bobby
E. Not proven.
But your D made me laugh :)
LIVIBHOY ok but I differ as I have no faith in our manager,the team has gone backwards and backwards since he took over
Diarra so so player with Loc/Moscow seen him in a few games on TV here.
Dmitri Tarasov would be a better signing from LM (they’re ALL for sale btw)
BRTH – this is why I feel it’ll be overturned on appeal. This allows the SFA to show that they’ve taken the complain seriously and not dismissed it out of hand and then to have considered it more follow and decided in the end it wasn’t fully proven.
It’s a terrible fudge because it leaves Tonev tainted.
It’s a very tricky situation all round as far as I can see.
Livibhoy thank you for that comprehensive response. I’ll pass it on to my daughter. BT i did’nt get the drift of your reply could you try again,maybe I’m a bit slow on a Friday Afternoon. Hail Hail Hebcelt
lawwellsacountant
Agree to disagree on that one. The team have taken time to settle. We are seeing consistency of results and performance will come.
UCL was a sore one. Legia and Maribor should have been beaten but we are where we are. If we win our next two or three games and start to turn on a bit of style then I think you may be convinced otherwise.
Ronny has a rake of players he needs to get out the squad. Players who either don;t want to play and live his way or who are unable to play his way. There are of course players who are just not good enough. I expect a clear out in January and a few more to come in. Guidetti is the most exciting forward we have possibly had in a decade. He likes the gaffer. Once one or two of the main players do that the rest follow. I think we are beginning to see the benefits the gaffer has put in place. Time will tell though. Let’s discuss again in a month and see where we are.
LB
hebcelt
Not a problem. Hope she has a great time.
LB
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS / Geordie
A-Guilty
B-Not guilty
C-Erm,that it
D-I wish to join the latest witch-hunt to prove how politically correct I am.
E- Not proven.
F – Jedi Knight
ICT fans are confident for tomorrow.
http://caleythistleonline.com/forum/4-ict/
LB
When I was younger I was a Ginger Bassa, now I’m a Baldy Bassa, I was always and still am an Irish & a Fenian Bassa. Never took much notice of the Ginger, Baldy, Irish or Fenian part of the outbursts as they were accurate.
Hebcelt
i sent an email to you with the name of the guy from creetown supporters club who has just returned from kenya,
your daughter could access him via my fb page or their page..
Would only consider Diarra if we were offloading Kayal & Biton, and moving Mulgrew back into defence. Signing him, and keeping what we have only reduces the likelihood of promising youngsters like Henderson getting a run in the team.
Have to laugh at the Aberdeen fans for saying that the SFA tries to protect Celtic and that “there must have been other witnesses or they wouldn’t have done him”
So naive.
Gary67
Diarra will take about 2 months to get fit under Ronny.
I am assuming that Efe will be out the door soon too and Boerritger.
Could be plenty places up for grabs on the bench and potential first team places too when injuries hit.
LB