Let’s start with what the other side think. Motherwell manager, Steven Hammell, complained about Celtic’s second goal. Matt Penney took a throw-in and hit Sead Haksabanovic, who was returning to the field having run off with Penney. Hammell wrongly claimed VAR did not look at the incident, when in fact, they scrutinised it before the goal was confirmed.
See below. The ball is in play the instant any part of it goes above the line. What you have to consider is, where is the ball when it hits Haksabanovic on the head?
Penney is well behind the line, Haksabanovic’s foot looks to be on the line, a football is 22cm. The image is inconclusive. Motherwell may have a case for a good moan, but even though we don’t know for sure what happened on this occasion, VAR was correct, it is only there to change clear mistakes, which this was not.
The challenge on Carl Starfelt by Josh Morris was studs up, caught the Celtic player on the foot (by definition, therefore, out of control) and dangerous. Carl saw it coming and escaped more serious consequences.
There were mitigating circumstances. Carl hesitated, inviting Morris into the challenge, so there was no intent. I suspect that mitigation and the fact that Carl escaped injury led referee Willie Collum to caution the player. We then revert to VAR’s role as an arbiter of a clear mistake. On this occasion, they decided that threshold was not breached. The referee should have awarded a red card first, or waited on guidance from VAR, before issuing a caution.
VAR takes the heat on this one, but it was a ref decision. You may also like to consider an incident at Ibrox last month, when VAR upgraded a caution issued to a Livingston player, advising the referee a red was in order. Personally, I’m happy for VAR to adjudicate either way on these decisions but would really prefer the same interpretation applied to teams in green and white, as to teams in blue.
For my money, the Jota goal was onside. From what we saw on TV, VAR was provided inconclusive evidence. Is it possible they do not have a camera at both ends of the ground? Otherwise, why show us inconclusive pictures from 60 yards away?
My understanding is that VAR have access to their own cameras and to TV (the game was on PPV) at both sides of the ground. I’m a tad suspicious we didn’t see the better freeze-frame. The assistant flagged an offside and we have no clear evidence either way, so I have no case to argue.
I’m happy we have VAR, it provides scrutiny, which is welcome. This has already made clear that we need better ‘trained’ referees. Vilifying them at every turn (I get the irony here) will not help. We also need better VAR. Scotland has an entry level product. England has better, the Champions League has best. Football must find the money and press on.
My main concern for the technology is how ball-to-arm incidents are judged when we visit Ibrox on 2 January. The portents on this one are not encouraging.
Matt O’Riley continues to grow as a player. His ball-winning tackle inside the box before crossing for Kyogo to open the scoring was a measured treat.
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As far as I am concerned they can shove VAR where the sun doesn’t shine. If we don’t have the correct money or equipment to do the job properly (as both incidents last night highlighted) then it is not worth doing the job at all. Come back in 10 years maybe Scottish football will have caught up by then.
BSR – A couple of points to add to your excellent observation. “Provide clarity”, weren’t we capable of that before? Didn’t we have multiple camera angles and slow motion to analyse and discern whether a refereeing decision was right or wrong for the past 20 years of televised football? Some good it did us.
I’d also take issue with Paul’s suggestion “I’m happy we have VAR, it provides scrutiny, which is welcome”. Again, what scrutiny does VAR suddenly provide which we were not capable of in the past? And scrutiny by who? By the same referees who have been shown either conflicted or incompetent, and often both?
Or are we all still waiting for this fabled avalanche of media backlash regarding our “strange” refereeing decisions, the same scrutiny which has been possible but absent for the past 20 years. The BBC match report today simply states “[Celtic] were controversially denied a goal when Jota was ruled offside before cutely lobbing Kelly”, “Controversially” doing a lot of heavy lifting there. And no mention of the ridiculous VAR photo that was shown to justify the offside decision, I can only imagine the hilarity among MoTD presenters if such a photo was used in an EPL game. Also no mention at all of the Starfelt challenge, which when you have the opportunity to watch it back (which is the point, right?) was clearly a red. What’s the odds that challenge will be upgraded to a red when the review panel look at it, which will just put the top hat on the VAR farce.
All VAR is achieving is to propel the farce of Scottish football to beyond parody at a faster rate of knots, while all the agents around the sport (SFA, media, club directors etc) smile and nod, comfortable in their established roles of pretending the sport is healthy and fair.
The first time is an incident, the second a coincidence, the third a rarity, the fourth a series. Math is now on our favor to explain Bias refereeing against us. It is interesting that after VAR was introduced we are only winning by the odd goal. The Hearts game for example should be 7-3 by my count.
11 fouls last night awarded against Celtic who had 71% of the ball, Collum was giving them everything as per usual . I really do not know how this guy can look in the mirror and say he has been fair and honest.
Good afternoon, friends. Delighted that over 40 emails are sitting waiting for me. I won’t read any till after 6.30 tonight as my latest Papa Jobo shift is about to start so please do spread the word and fire your 3 names over. SENCELPOTY@GMAIL.COM
EKBHOY
Noticed last night opponents stop get a free kick or fall on the ball and then hold it…..crazy
TB could not believe passing last thank god Motherwell were as bad a very poor football game and VAR, but it’s three points and on to the next game.
Scary moment on the highlights at the first goal when Collum stares at the lad on the ground and thinks about giving a foul. Hopefully VAR was in his ear saying no.
There might be loads of occasions when VAR does the right thing in the ref’s ear and we never know about it
mibby
SPFL Premiership
Penalties Conceded
22/23 Season
As at 10/11/22 (31)
St.Mirren 7
Livingston 6
Aberdeen 5
Celtic 3
Hearts 2
Hibs 2
Kilmarnock 2
Motherwell 1
Dundee Utd 1
Ross County 1
St.Johnstone 1
Thems 0
There are too many obvious and glaring mistakes all against Celtic to continue being suspicious about VAR
I am now convinced the hun referees are taking advantage of being able to call off a Celtic goal or give a penalty against us and they will never be pulled up about it
I am not suspicious any more (never was) it is a racing certainty we are being cheated left right and centre
St Mirren have conceded most penalties and who are the Huns playing next
Maybe time to bet on at least 2 hun penalties this weekend
Hot Smoked Dumpling …..mmmm.
Settling down to watch a replay of last night’s game.
I have my T square, protractor and micrometer on hand, ready to check the VAR decisions
Sonsoferin @ a wee while ago
Clarity from Hampden would be groundbreaking, for Celtic supporters, with these honest mistakes no longer needing to be laughed away, by after dinner speaking, retired referees.
Any delusions of being treated equally should have evaporated in the first game at Tynecastle, for those that didn’t already have their head screwed on properly.
We have been raging at VAR in games against Hearts, DU and Motherwell. All games we won. It stinks.
Nicholson needs to DEMAND a meeting with the SPFL and the refs. Shame them into something approaching neutrality.
He will have few if any allies at other clubs but a joint presentation would be preferred.
The VAR refs need to be accountable for these “baffling” decisions.
Fergus would have given it to them with both barrels.
BSR.
Remember CQN1O?
You came with a name tag (not your own).
Whose name was on your tag?
Fred
Don’t forget to allow for parallax error
Great analysis Paul, VAR is here to stay and as you suggest the greater scrutiny it brings could eventually help to raise the standards of refereeing in Scotland.
Haksa to take the next penalty.
I am genuinely concerned about the future of football in Scotland if VAR continues in this fashion.
After the VAR awarded Dundee Utd penalty, there was a flatness around the ground for about twenty minutes. So far, from a Celtic perspective,VAR has had a very negative impact on the game here.
We should be talking of football (or politics,or poppies or cheese on toast) but, as can be seen by the Blog of late, VAR is the main talking point.
The referees response to all things Celtic 🖕
Gene
They know and are loving it.
Just heard one of the ref`s responsible for the running of VAR saying there will always be controversy in football but VAR will help to lessen that.
A resounding success, then !
Fred Colon
Alfie Noakes ?
Hi Paul67,
My understanding is that VAR have access to their own cameras and to TV (the game was on PPV) at both sides of the ground. I’m a tad suspicious we didn’t see the better freeze-frame. The assistant flagged an offside and we have no clear evidence either way, so I have no case to argue.
Well, in regard of the no clear evidence you are correct but the only reason we don’t have any evidence is as you say, the process isn’t transparent and we don’t understand how they analyse the information and come to a conclusion.
As it was a close call, you are depending on VAR to be more accurate than the linesman!?
What I can tell you is, sadly enuff, I have done my own in depth analysis!!
Now, the reason why I analysed it was an interesting phenomenon – Stephen O’Donnell was actually standing on the perimeter of the centre circle when the ball was struck by Kyogo.
Bang on, the angle of his body was the same as the angle of the line of the point of the circle he was standing on while turning.
So we have the circle, we have the half way line that are geometrically aligned. We also have the grass lines that are indicitive.
From the looks of it, the mercurial Jota is behind O’Donnell before the ball is hit, in line with O’Donnell when the ball is struck and past O’Donnell when the ball was in mid flight.
Now it didn’t look in real time like Jota was offside, he had a clear sight of Kyogo hitting the pass, he had a clear sight of O’Donnell in front of him, you’d expect he’d time his run.
Of course being “tight” it means you can’t always tell from the camera angle but he looked to have timed his run to perfection and executed the goal with Larrsonesque aplomb.
As I said I have analysed this and in every single way I have looked at it Jota is on-side. In fact if you still the video when the ball is two metres from Kyoto, you will see he’s still onside as while turning O’Donnell has stuck out his leg as you’d expect with the defender turning.
Even if you see the “line” VAR drew and the shaded area, you can see that O’Donnell is goal side and Jota is behind the line.
Of course Jota is running towards the goal, so it’s difficult to diffintively say where his foot and knee, the two most advanced parts of his body, are but he looks onside, did the VAR “technology” say otherwise?
As I said, I’ve looked at it from quite a few perspectives and can’t get Jota offside.
Now the best geometry evidence that I can garner is to get the still from when Kyogo strikes the ball, without VARs scribbles.
Take the point of the apex of the centre circle, the apex is not significantly changed by the camera angle, draw a line to the centre spot.
Now geometrically that is a straight line from the centre spot to the centre of the goal.
Now, we have Stephen O’Donnell standing on the circle left of the apex and an arc of the circle created by the grassline.
The defenders left shoulder is the closest part of his body to his goalline and you can fairly accurately put a point on the centre circle where that is.
By drawing a line parallel with the “grassline”, you can create another arc this line intersects your centre circle to apex line at 90° and can be extended to give you a perpendicular line right across the pitch which is in line with Stephen O’Donnell’s shoulder.
You will then notice that due to geometric good luck Jota was more onside than you thought.
But why bother!?
Well if we are to believe what they are telling us, that this technology is accurate then because of Stephen O’Donnell standing bang on the Centre Circle the moment the ball is struck, that accuracy is provable.
They got it wrong – so either they’re lieing to us and the VAR is not accurate or they are cheating, or of course both.
Now, Jobo’s POTY took slightly less analysis…
Lots of good performances, I’m going to overlook a few of our stalwarts who had good games, CCV and oor Matt could well be worth a vote but I’ve gone for the forwards today as they were cheated out of yhe 4-1 victory that I predicted
So winging it’s way to SENCELPOTY@GMAIL.COM
1. Jota
2. Meada
3. Kyogo
Hail Hail
BSR – To quote the great bard “Thumbs up”.
Paul 67
You say the ref’s need to better trained, joke. They are very well trained as are VAR officials to give us nothing at all, hee-haw in fact.
As I said earlier, the Scoddish version is an absolute disgrace, end of.
KINGLuBO
Interesting take on VARce
https://celticbynumberscom.ipage.com/honest-mistakes-weeks-12-and-13/
TURKEYBHOY on 10TH NOVEMBER 2022 1:49 PM
You might not appreciate it but that’s my thoughts too .Thought we were too sloppy at times . Thanks to Big Matts perfect timing of the tackle ,delivery for Kyogo and a sublime passage of play between Turnbull and Maeda to give us an outstanding winner and deserved 3 points , alls well that ends well .
Good evening all from Shawlands. Shipbank Shipwrecks meeting tomorrow at 1pm. Be nice to see faces old and new. Be sure to bring plenty cash as I’m skint. Regards- Johnny Micawber.
Whatever did we talk about before VAR?
BRRB
‘ something will turn up ‘
Mncelt
I can feel a list coming on
Lets be clear about this. If the Board is happy with VAR, Paul67 is happy.
Heard on the wireless the other day, that when referees paced out the ten yards for a direct free kick, it is on average 9.1 yards. Not metres, yards. Factor in the Wee Willie Collum dimension (no jokes please Big Jimmy, this is a family show), and you’ve got even more of a problem. Point being, if referees cannot get ten yards right what price ten mm, or one mm? Compound that with cameras that make the old Scotsport technology look like the James Webb Space Telescope. Might as well advertise in the local masonic lodge.
Gene 4.40
Penury! 😂
I’m usually listing to port. 😳
BRRB
Late bottled vintage
MNCELT @ 4:39 PM,
Getting the aul’ roasted cheese at Parkhead and heading off to the Burn’s Howff to cure our blues, while singing rebel songs and telling each other how bad the younger generation of today are.
Thank GoD for VAR eh!!
Hail Hail
There is a difference between referees being trained in VAR, and Sevco benefit VAR