Five at the back is an orthodox defensive shape, it’s not a headcount of defenders, which is the crux of where we went wrong last night: we chose the wrong system.
Consider the space between (debutant) Gamboa and Lustig at the first goal. No one was sure who should have been picking up Messi (reveal: it was Bitton, who didn’t track the run). There was uncertainty – presumably because we tried a new defensive system out at the Camp Nou.
Another consequence of five at the back is that your fullbacks don’t get midfield cover. Instead, Sinclair and Roberts were asked to work 40 yards out. This plan came at the cost of protecting Gamboa and Tierney.
The overwhelming tactical memory I have of our win against Barca four years ago was Neil Lennon doubling up in the fullback area.
Then we had two central defenders with Wanyama (a defensive mid, which Bitton is not) in front. Our two full backs were partnered with a wide midfield player. Diagrammatically that was four at the back, but whenever Barcelona were in possession (80% of the time), seven players were protecting the Celtic penalty area.
The abiding defensive memory from that night it the thicket of legs confronting Messi every time he got the ball. There was no space for him to pass and move into. Last night, he had more space inside the box to run into that he’ll see all season. It was simply the wrong system.
During the game I was pretty annoyed at Bitton, who I blamed for the first three goals, but he’s a deep-lying playmaker, not a defensive mid, and looked clueless in the position. Although even I know you need to track Messi’s forward runs, and my 11-yr-old knew they were about to score the third the minute we conceded a free kick 23 yards out in front of goal. Reveal: barging players 23 yards out is a mistake that gets you spoken to when playing 2004s football.
We had numbers but not a coherent defensive strategy. The lessons from The Beating of Barca in 2012 were lost. Four years ago we twice played them with these back fours:
Lustig, Wilson, Ambrose, Izaguirre
Lustig, Wilson, Ambrose, Matthews (out of position)
None of Wilson, Ambrose, Izaguirre or Matthews (at left back) would get in this Celtic team. They were all pretty standard-grade defenders, but with protection on the wings and in front, it worked.
After we lost the third concentration levels dipped, tired legs after Saturday would have been energised legs if we were still in touch. I’d also tell Scott Brown not to worry too much about giving the ball away. We’re not good enough to plan to regularly retain possession at the Camp Nou.
We’re a ‘two pass then lob it into the box or win a foul’ team at this level. Accept this and concentrate on what’s deliverable – “We are Celtic, try running through this thicket of legs”.
Scotts Brown and Sinclair played well. Moussa will beat himself up about the penalty but it was inconsequential. Gamboa and de Vries looked lost, as all Camp Nou opposition debutants (there can’t be many) and exposed keepers do.
It may have been the biggest loss in Europe but it doesn’t even come close to being our worst performance. It’s not even our worst performance in Europe of the season, so we’ll get over it quickly.
You and I both remember seven goal victories being overturned a week later. This is football. The leap required to deliver a tighter defensive system is not the magnitude it may appear.
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My friends in Celtic,
Given the financial and skill disparity.
To make things fair we should have been allowed to play 5,5,2.
Even with 13 players last night, I still think Barca would have beaten us. ( And about 90% of European teams)
Seriously, the only thing I am really disapointed about is the recording of the score in our history books. I have witnessed much worse performances over the years.
HH.
This superb submission deserves another airing for those who may have missed it. Snake, with your permission..
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SNAKE PLISSKEN on 14TH SEPTEMBER 2016 10:37 AM
The problem now that we face is we know that from now on it will not get much better for us barring a good draw from here on in every time we get into this stage.
The CL is not for us in a meaningful way.
We won’t influence it. We won’t compete beyond a last 16 if we get a good draw in the groups. If we get a group with teams from 3 out of the 4 favoured leagues, we’re more or less out before a ball is kicked.
But we make a lot of money by getting there.
That is the rub.
If you want to be in this tournament you are going to have to take results like last night’s from time to time.
It’s not knockout.
It’s no longer about bringing through a good team and building because talent gets snapped up elsewhere by teams like Southampton.
It’s purely down to who has money and who people want to see in the latter stages.
It’s been like that for a very long time.
If you think this is sour grapes from me, it’s not. I said the day we got that draw it would be bad for us and I have been on record saying how much I hate the format of this tournament.
4 teams from certain leagues getting in is killing competition, it’s hurting sides from ”smaller” nations.
Champions of many nations are excluded all together because of qualifying and with the exception of part time teams I cannot see any justification for that.
If all the champions got in directly, got the kind of money from the competition and a significant portion of that money was dispersed into their top leagues or across their leagues on an even basis there would be healthier and stronger competition across the continent. Just my opinion.
Teams from Scotland as well as Holland, Belgium and even Portugal now know full well any talented players developed are sold pronto and teams from bigger leagues snap up youth from the continent from nations like Croatia, Slovakia etc, put them in their reserve teams and they barely see the light of day half the time and then they are loaned elsewhere.
It’s a problem across the continent.
Then we come to seeding.
It sets us and many others up to fail.
Imagine they put all the names in a hat and drew a group of – Barcelona, Bayern, Leicester and Juventus.
Imagine the uproar – we cannot have those teams playing each other at this stage because…….. it’s not competitive.
Seriously I’ve heard people say that to me.
Leicester with no history of playing in Europe get to be a top seed this year. How did that happen when Dortmund as German champs a few years ago were in Pot 4 after their years of absence from the tournament? Leicester would have been one of the lowest ranked teams under normal circumstances but they get more than a little bit of a leg up because of where they play their football.
I understand they changed the rules this season for that to happen but that is my point. These rule changes are still to the detriment of smaller nations. As for ”the champion’s route” – it’s an insult to teams from many nations as far as I am concerned.
The only way to remedy this is as follows:
A free draw.
Home and away
Knockout.
That’s football folks.
They don’t want a first round where Barcelona have to play Bayern Munich. That is why the CL was created.
This is all about the money.
And yet we all want to be a part of it.
I am not sure we can square this particular circle.
Reflecting on us specifically and our performance –
Celtic must prepare now for next season in Europe. I don’t like the CL format but I recognise that people want to be there and the club want to be there from manager to players to boardroom – it’s a fact of life now. If we’re entering the competition, we might as well try and do as well as we can.
Brendan Rodgers’ biggest mistake last night was trying to play Barcelona at football. We were too open, they took full advantage and then some.
Missing the penalty was a major moment. Had we scored who knows how the game would have gone? Minutes later Messi scored and it was game over.
I remain convinced if our keeper had made that foul he’d have seen red but that is just my opinion.
Every team who get a result against Barcelona do it the same way – be physical, close down all space, play on the break or for set pieces and corners and be lucky. Celtic did it, Chelsea did it, I think Milan did it and throw in Athletico Madrid as well. Taking Barcelona on at football is something I think only Real Madrid can do. Arsenal have tried to play Barcelona at football and been trounced as well.
I’m not down because of the defeat but I know we must do better.
The manager needs to have a look at the goalkeeping situation. De Vries has done nothing to inspire anyone with confidence so far. He looks shaky in fact. He needs to find defensive holding midfield players for next season. Right now we have Biton and he isn’t going to be that player. We have talent in the team but not enough for that level yet.
Sign one or two more in January and move a few more out who need to go like Efe Ambrose and probably Boyata.
See if Simunovic is going to be the answer between now and then and if not get another centre half in. Kolo Toure is with us for only one season.
Scott Brown was arguably our best player last night as far as anyone could be accused of having a good game but he cannot go on forever either. We have young exciting players but they need old heads and someone to do the dirty work in midfield as well to allow them to play.
It’s not easy to find these players but they are out there.
I still trust Brendan. I like what he has done so far more or less and I hope we have a successful domestic season, build for next season and put up a better show than last night in our remaining group games.
I don’t expect us to qualify from the group and I think it might be possible to get to the Europa league but that will be a hard slog. Give it our best shot and that is all we can do.
The most important things this season for Celtic are Six in a row, beating domestic opposition and allowing the manager to set up a team that will last us a few seasons and make us as competitive in Europe as it is possible to be given the previously described problems.
As for the CL as a competition – I still cannot stand it. People can fawn over it if they like but I won’t be. I barely watch it anymore if Celtic are not playing.
FOXY
Hey cowardly makes more money it seems. ;)
KLV
79Caps/Reggie,
Normally I would say that you simply cannot even begin to consider playing a man to man-mark Messi or Iniesta as immediately you are a man down, however last night I doubt it would have made any difference as we looked like we were 2 men down at times.
My reasoning for the non man-marking role is that when a guy is that much better than you, you spend your time chasing shadows, tire much more quickly than usual, become very dis-illusioned and angry and then just try to kick them rather than merely closing them down. The problem there is that these guys are that much better than you it is actually very difficult even to “do” them and you look even more stupid. That I fear would have been the case for Stuart Artmstrong or indeed any of our players last night.
HAIL! HAIL!
Token
Kevinlasvegas……………Celtic may be in a pond with the big fish but the club has earned the right to be there as League Champions and having come through six tricky qualification games. This cannot be said of some of those big fish you refer to who have been pitchforked into the Champions League on foot of winning nothing. There is no need to be embarrassed for being there. On the positive side we can all see the improvements Brendan Rodgers has brought to the side in a couple of months so we must move on from last night.
The blog is going round in circles today. It’s only the 1st match, we have 5 more to salvage some pride and learn some lessons. Let’s see how we get on….
The Token Tim
You can close down a player like Iniesta because he does not have pace. You can force him to play sideways passes only. When we beat Barca 2-1 at Celtic Park it was precisely because we forced them to play the ball out to the flanks continually, where they could not do so much damage to us.
Obviously it would be much harder to man-mark Messi, but trying to do that would surely have been preferable to giving acres of space like we did last night.
The upcoming game against sevco on Hogmanay is the ideal game for us all not to buy tickets don’t give them the money it would let everyone no we don’t want them
Good evening friends.
When we go to Ibrox on Hogmany this is scheduled to be our 21st league game of the season. I’d be astonished if there isn’t at least a 15-point gap between the 2 teams by then. Perhaps they stuck with the date given that there won’t be much at stake in the game itself? ;-)
BBC Scotland have managed to show four of the goals and haven’t even come to the report of the game yet.
yesterday was dreadful and I have no problem with people who need to let off steam from frustration. From my own point of view it was us versus big money and I’m proud we are solvent. Not many people know we have survived the biggest sporting cheat and dodge in the history of sport but we know and we have survived it. Also we are in a league of clubs who have survived, many of whom tried to match rangers’ incompetent spending.
Paul67
Yup. I think we all long in our hearts for a defensive side a la Neil Lennon or even G S that might not be so entertaining but are hard to beat.
We like the security of feeling that once we go ahead chances are we will win. Downside is claims of turgid or boring football.
Perhaps BR really wanted that approach but recognised we simply do not yet have a Wanyama type to boss midfield. It’s been clear for a while we need a more physical and athletic presence there and it’s not Bitton.
Playing Roberts and Gamboa together for first time was a mistake but again what were the alternatives?
As regards Du Vires I’ve yet to be convinced he is better than Craig Gordon.
We are at present EL standard and whilst the money is good from CL, developing in the EL for a season would be less embarrassing.
However BR is only three months in to his reign and if we see the problems chances are he does too.
It doesn’t help being in the toughest group
I-m guessing Brendan would have been raging with the 2 goals from short corners.It is a classic Barca move, knock it to 18-20 yards out, pass inside , then a ball between FB and CB, and you are wide to the world.The lack of cover for the FBs was a mistake IMO, we need to double up against teams of Barca’s class, and their constant use of width.We are taking small steps, Brendan is only in the door 4 months, and made a huge amount of money already for the Club, we haven’t spent the ICC money ,£7.5 mil,another million for Wanyama sell on.Try and get a couple more in January, and he will have targets for next season’s CLQs.We should have had another 2 MFs in a couple of weeks ago, but it wouldn’t have mattered last night.
Bourn,
That will be the same channel which only shows one of our five against them. Something seriously wrong with that mob!
Do the people who keep advocating direct entry to the CL group stages for EVERY champion club realise that there are no fewer than 54 champion clubs in Europe each year?
Obviously not.
The Token Tim
By the end of the evening I was hoping someone would “cement” Naymar.
Trouble was the bags of metaphorical cement our players were lugging around in comparison.
We simply could not get close enough to grout never mind cement.
Could we not have had a go for Marshall?
Didn’t go for a huge fee. Wages wouldn’t been that high – probably less than Morrison would be on.
A prize a hole on Clyde, ” we have lost dignity” lol Honestly.
KLV
Apart from the heated driveway mona lisa’s and hunterlopers the comments on here since last night have been pretty fair. As for myself, I was more disappointed in the last result we had in the Nou Camp than last nights. They really have made us pay for that wonderful night in November 4 year ago.
A comment was made about this being the worst ever night as a Celtic supporter, not even close.
Standing on the slopes of hunden watching my hero Bobby Evans having a new backside ripped in him by Gerry Baker, a player we allegedly chose Jim Conway over. Bobby was gone a year later.
Fast forward 2 years and a provincial side beat us 2-0 in the replay of the final, a game that my da said we would win as Celtic sides don’t lose replays, actually they did and he was at one 6 years earlier.
Or a year later at the bigot dome losing 1-3 to a Buddies side we had horsed 5-0 five days earlier at Love Street.
Moving on another 2 years and the slopes of the Celtic end at hunden emptied as the horribles chanted “easy easy easy” a well known boxing chant as we went down 0-3, we were humiliated in a game where Bob Kelly commented that he would rather they had filled the net than torment us on the park, aye ok Bob 5 and a half years after the 7-1 game I don’t think so.
Ooops another year later we contrived to lose a 3 goal lead in the 2nd leg of the ECCWC in Budapest as a result of another Bob interfering decision.
And then Jock and the glory years arrived, but it didnae end there as Milan ’70 and the Maryhill Magyars had us in tears again.
There have been others such as Neuchtel Xamax, Raith and Falkirk at the kenny lynch dome, Black Sunday (or as sheik yerbouti calls it helicopter sunday) and Artmedia, but as the Bunnet said “Being a Celtic supporter is not always easy, but it is always worthwhile.”
So if any sevcos/huns start tae gloat just remind them that we didnae lose 1-4 at home to a Romanian side that were relegated and ceased tae exist less than 2 years later, right enough they would follow follow them the following season.
Qualifying for the Group Stages every year is a realistic goal. Far from a certainty but a sporting possibility.
A decent group could open a possibility of a second place but in truth that is now becoming far fetched.3rd is a possibility and a chance for a run in the Europa Cup.
As long as we ply our trade in Scotland and there is no ground breaking Atlantic League that is the very best we can hope for.
This year we got the hardest possible group, it looks like a straight shoot out between Borussia and ourselves for the Europa spot. What happened last night should have no influence on how we do unless Borussia were to take a point/points from away game with Barca (unlikely).
There was nothing lost last night but pride & just maybe the tanking we got will be the catalyst that will spark us to do well in the games that really matter.
Great post by Snake Plissen.
Just about sums the whole charade up.
CORKCELT
Agreement, Get to the groups and shut our eyes and hopefully finish in the Europe spot.
That is being realistic, Hope nest year we don’t get such a tough group. No matter who got this group will struggle, City and Barca are in their own league.
KLV
PrestonPans
Yip………….they got all seven goals in over again, even with replay or two.
Where does it leave the champions they plea?
C40 @ 6.05
Two players foul the same man.
Referee can only award one foul.
Auld Tam…………..Interesting to note that none of the teams in our Champipons League group are in fact Champions of their respective countries. One wonders how many of these teams would actually make it if they had to play qualification rounds when fitness levels would not be up to scratch I think in particular of the fate of West Ham who exited Europa qualification in the preliminary round in early July.
MADMITCH on 14TH SEPTEMBER 2016 6:02 PM
The rebuilding job has to start now — we need to make a game of it for the rematch.
____
The rebuilding job began in July – if you hadn’t noticed?
It won’t end until next September or, even, January 18 – that is the reality.
What is required right now is patience as the Management team figures out where we’re at & considers where they want to be.
Sadly this European Campaign could be a very long & rocky experience but an experience it shall be one, I hope, we will learn an awful lot from. Anyone who believed we were gonna compete in this group were kidding themselves on.
Domestically other team is in our league but in Euro terms The only way up.
Union Jackie Burd in Reporting Shortbread announces in head-shaking “Queen Mither dead” stylee that next “O** F***” (sic) Derby will be played Hogmanay 12:15.
Now what piece of footage from Saturday’s game would spring to mind as an accompaniment. The final whistle ???
In other news. Would it be that the REAL reason the game is being played Saturday is that the Huns would never be able to afford police costs for the game being played on public holidays Jan 1-2??
TONTINE TIM on 14TH SEPTEMBER 2016 6:43 PM
Enjoyed that,good post.
yeah, snake’s post was spot on
http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/and-you-dare-to-call-us-sectarian/
Tontine Tim,
You just brought a lot of far more painful memories than last night ever will. (I actually had a good night’s sleep last night; maybe I am growing old!) As I mentioned last night, the defeat to Dunfermline, when I was 11, is probably the hardest to take still.
Bob Kelly’s idiosyncratic interventions probably cost us quite a few trophies……………..Hmmmm.
I think Brendan has discarded (Demoted ) both Gordon and Efe a bit too soon.
I am not 100% a Gordon fan, but believe he is a better shot stopper than De Vries who over the 3 games he has played, according to a statto on another site, has had 13 shots on target and shipped 9 goals.
I am aware Efe can be a bomb scare,he is also a veteran of these fixtures and who is to say with his fitness deployed in a defensive,but NOT a last man role,we would have fared any worse.
Barca were given too much respect,it is a contact sport and we let them play,add to that a poor judgement call re Gamboa,plus Biton stuck in reverse,made for a long night.
I seem to remember that Jackie Bird saying when on a school trip
To Lisbon her and a Pal sneaked away to go to see where Celtic
won big CUP…could be wrong
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
SQUIRE DANAHER on 14TH SEPTEMBER 2016 6:57 PM
Union Jackie Burd in Reporting Shortbread announces in head-shaking
CELTIC40ME on 14TH SEPTEMBER 2016 6:05 PM
I’ve heard of a half chance but never a half foul. What does one look like?
Depends.
some look like …………fo
and some look like……ul
CorkCelt
Don’t M’Gladbach play Barca last? So if Barca are already sure of first place in the group they’ll play their reserves. They did this before against Benfica, which almost worked against us.
Tontine Tim
Great post. Born in 61 the worst for me will probably always be Milan 70. And the only one that really comes close was Fir Park 2005.
Don’t get me wrong last night is a stinker and some players had poor games but oddly unlike those two games or one or two other fiascos I have no remote sense of the players or manager letting me down or even of grief. We lost and that is kind of it.
Jim
Three things imo:
Brendan has delivered dynamism, excitement and players that unfortunately RD either couldn’t or wasn’t allowed to. Positive
Dorus is a dud. A goalkeeper needs to do what it says on the tin, first, ( 3 goals last night he should have got) second he can play sweeper keeper, disappointing
Third and I am raging on this one, Patrick Roberts cost us in the semi final against that mob last season by not tracking back. How in the proverbial can our defence coach who was there last season not mark BR ‘s card about his total lack of defensive cover, thus leaving a debutant totally exposed to Barca to run riot down our right. Please someone tell me how stupidity succeeds????