Two years ago, it was Neil Lennon under pressure. Celtic were on a course to lose their first league title in a decade. Fans were unable to attend but a few turned up anyway to boo and harass. Confidence was low and the siege that soon surrounded the club didn’t help.
I spoke to ‘sources close to the club’ after the 2-2 draw at Easter Road in November 2020 and suggested, ‘You’re probably going to lose the league, but if you change manager, it might not be too late’. Changing manager sounds easier than it ever is, but once you make that decision, more difficult questions arise.
When Neil eventually left in February, we promoted John Kennedy as caretaker. John could have taken control earlier and generated something of a dead cat bounce, but that change was not going to transform Celtic from losers to winners.
If we sacked Neil after that draw with Hibs, we could have gone to market trying to recruit a replacement for a manager, who at that stage, had won 100% of the domestic competitions the club competed in during his tenure. It is one thing to sack a failed manager, but sack a manager who had never failed because some fans demanded it? Proportionality of response is required if you are to be taken seriously by serious candidates.
Managers all know the script when it comes to the pressure clubs are under to sack someone when results go south, and they always go south at some point. Celtic didn’t sack Neil that autumn, he left by his own hand with the season’s business overwhelmingly settled.
The problems we had that season were far from limited to the manager. The goalkeeping situation was a disaster zone, as was central defence. We had a defender, midfielder and striker all in the final period of their contracts and wanting away. Jock Stein himself would not have been able to parachute into that mess and turn things around.
After a very lengthy and circuitous process, Celtic eventually recruited an outstanding talent who has transformed every aspect of the football operation. The recovery worked out better than any of us could have hoped. Still, we lost THAT league title.
There were a few reasons why Celtic didn’t sack Neil Lennon early that season, when the writing was on the wall. The man responsible knew he had to subsequently attract a replacement who was able to work the kind of magic Ange Postecoglou delivered. That is not easy. We did so with Brendan Rodgers, but when Brendan left, the recruitment job was much harder. We ended up with Neil, more than appointed him.
I think if a Brendan Rodgers-type candidate was there and prepared to come, Celtic would have made the move earlier that season. This was not the case. None of the options convinced anyone at Celtic that they were going to rescue a season that was so badly out of kilter.
Instead, the club looked to the horizon and planned how to put Celtic back on top as quickly as possible. Changing the manager in haste was not material to this, so Neil did the hard work and got on with the job to the best of his ability. For the record, those of you who spent time yesterday reminiscing, 10 years after beating Barcelona in the Champions League, might consider he was a talented manager. Many worse options were available in November 2020.
Looking back on a successful recovery, this makes sense. At the time, most people just wanted a clearly failing manager sacked. When things are going wrong, we want action, often without considering if the most likely actions will only make things worse.
I cannot believe the bloodthirst for Giovanni van Bronckhorst. Less than six months ago he took a team of journeymen to a European final, one they would have won bar a remarkable save two minutes from the end of extra time. He then beat PSV Eindhoven to qualify for the Champions League group stage, again, a remarkable performance.
The problems at Newco are not all his doing. He lost his best players in the summer and was given little of the proceeds to replace them. His team are aging and, like some in the Celtic squad of season 2019-20, have an eye on the door. He is also up against a formidable Celtic. Sacking the manager will not fix any of this. But still, the demands for action could scarcely be stronger.
Having watched how Celtic kept their eye firmly on recovery in November 2020, it is easy to look around at the mistakes of others.
Newco are surrounded by many worse options that sticking with van Bronckhorst, and I doubt they have genuine faith in a way forward that they believe will knock Celtic off the podium. They can sack a manager who achieved spectacularly for them, or face down some entitled fans. It will be a measure of their board if they are prepared to take abusive flack personally when a scapegoat is available.
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CELTIC40ME on 8TH NOVEMBER 2022 10:33 PM
Trust me, I’m better qualified than you when it comes to saying what I was talking about.
I’ve clarified what I was referring to by “this stage”. For your benefit (again), I was talking about the date in the season. The 8th Nov 2020 – two years ago today. What ‘we’ were speaking about is up to you. Allow me the courtesy of saying what I was speaking about.
You’re entitled to your interpretation of my words but now that I’ve clarified the point, you should move on and stop being so shrill.
You speak of 2011 and 2020 seasons but completely ignore the context of the times.
When I point out that fans were better informed about Lennon’s managerial traits, you speak about no one caring ?
A lot of fans cared and were worried about what former players were saying about working under him.
Maybe you didn’t, fair enough, but don’t set yourself up as the spokesperson for thousands of Celtic fans. Just say ‘I didn’t care’, no need to speak for everyone else.
The argument about who is to blame for the loss of the 10 has been already won.
Those who said that we should have changed managers earlier have been proven right. Those of us who defended Neil, on the basis of his previous record, have been proven wrong.
Paul’s attempt to say that a change could have made the situation worse is a plausible speculation but not a satisfactory one. Those arguing for Neil to go earlier are not going to be convinced by an argument that says we could have ended up with more than a 25 point deficit.
No- I can no longer defend the position I took on the 10iar season- and I reached that conclusion once the league was actually lost.
My only variation from the Lennon 10iar critics is that I still judge the Lennon record of achievement in the round. Losing the 10iar in such a pitiful way is a huge, and hard to measure, minus.
But……….Neil won 5 League championships, 4 Scottish Cups and one League Cup. He gave us great nights and memories vs Barca and Lazio. That has to count for something to weigh against the one terrible year and a few other dodgy moments, like the loss to ICT, after players were allowed to attend a POTY event the night before.
If the rest of his managerial record with us does not convince you, then surely his playing record with us must count for something as a counterbalance.
For me he remains a club legend with one very very very sad and bad end. I believe the passage of time will allow him to return (as a spectator) and be accepted as the club legend he is.
We all went a bit mad in the 10iar season-so we should forgive Neil for falling victim to that madness too.
The last season hurts and I fully understand the anger against Neil (it should be shared by a few others too) but I hope we learn to weigh this appropriately and measure Neil in the round for his contribution to our club
AN DÚN on 8TH NOVEMBER 2022 11:06 PM
“I’ve clarified what I was referring to by “this stage”. For your benefit (again), I was talking about the date in the season.”
You weren’t. (Again) You said at this stage of the season. If you didnt mean that then fair enough, but it is what you said. Pedantic, maybe, childish, probably, shrill? Not sure what that means.
I think far from me ignoring context when we’re talking about whether Lenny should have been sacked after the Hibs draw, which is what the discussion is, I think you are.
In 2020 we had a Celtic manager who had won the league every season he was in charge from 2012 onwards, he had just won the last 4 trophies, we had won the league the previous season and were on course for over a hundred points and over a hundred goals. 9 wins and a draw in the last ten games. 8 points behind but had previously shown himself to be capable of turning round a 15 point deficit
In 2011 we had a manager in his second full season who had just lost the league when he had it in his power to win it, facing a 15 point deficit. There was nothing about Celtic at that point that suggested we were going to catch them and overtake them.
That we were able to by the new year only tells you that in 2020 we had a manager who was capable of it, while in 2011 we didnt know that. Unless he had somehow become a worse manager in the 8 years, he still had it in him.
Its not context that I’m missing, its your prejudice against his appointment. You weren’t outside Celtic Park shouting “I told you so” but it would have made more sense than shouting for him to be sacked.
The real context was that in 2011 we were at the start of nine in a row and we had just had Tony Mowbray as manager, there was far less pressure on everyone to win the league. By 2020 Brendan Rodgers had been our previous manager and we were all desperate to win the most important league for over 40 years. We had no fans in the ground, everyone was getting their Celtic fix from the internet and social media, the “travellers” and malcontents were heard loudest, the silent majority were nowhere to be seen or heard. Our manager hadn’t got any worse, he’d got better, but the situation, the context led to a completely different environment.
I can’t think of any situation in previous seasons when we would have had people chucking fences at the police and chasing the team bus down the street when we were 8 points behind. I think the calls for his head should be viewed with that context in mind.
We all lost it during that season, I think the hysteria affected all our judgement.
I think his “behaviour” at other clubs will have played a part in whether people thought he should have been appointed. I think whether he should have been sacked after the Hibs draw depended on what he had achieved at Celtic, and how likely he was to turn Celtic around. I dont think anyone cared about how he’d treated Bolton or Hibs players by then, the Board certainly shouldn’t have. It was all about Celtic and what he could do for us. It certainly shouldn’t have come into the boards thinking, when they had everything they needed from his time here to help them make their decision
SETTING FREE THE BEARS FOR RES. 12 & OSCAR KNOX on 8TH NOVEMBER 2022 11:45 PM
The argument about who is to blame for the loss of the 10 has been already won.
No it hasn’t, we have a bit of time to go before we can say anything as definite as that. You only have to look at the change in perception of Fergus McCann to see how blame can change with time. There are plenty of books to be written and stories to be told by people who’s hands are tied for now before we get the full picture
“Those who said that we should have changed managers earlier have been proven right.”
No they haven’t. It all depends on who we changed manager to. We dont know who that could have been, we can’t say the outcome would have been better. Its entirely possible, given the circumstances, that a new manager would have done worse. Its extremely unlikely they would have stepped in and won the league.
The longer term picture wouldn’t have included Ange.
its perfecty feasible that we could have appointed someone who wasnt good enough to win the league against a Sevco team that won over 100 points and wasn’t as good as Ange. Given the job that Ange faced when he took over, you could easily argue that not sacking Lenny when we did actually worked out better.
Oh well I suppose it has given me yet another opportunity to draw attention to what had to be the highlight of Neil Lennon’s final, albeit incomplete season, the trip to the Middle East early 2021. Who can forget it, not me that’s for sure, who has celebrated and commemorated it at every opportunity. Ok, it wasn’t inverness 2011, when we turned up at Lennoxtown, to find we were the only ones there, actually Izzy was there, nobody else. Wee Frimpers gone, but not Big Pete’s bonus, Lenny complicit in the deal. Paul67 an apologist an all, Pravda and Izvestia on the same page. Dubai, now you’re talking, game of hit the bar in the morning and then hitting the bar for real in the afternoon. Lenny and Di Broonie leading the charge. Twistin By The Pool!
Great days indeed…..
Celtic have told the SFA that the trip to Australia next week is more important than Scotland’s match in Turkey and as such, no celtic players will be available for the friendly international.
Ange Postecoglou has confirmed that all Celtic players not participating in the World Cup will travel to Sidney for the double-header.
My friends in Celtic,
I am delighted with Ange and his football philosophy. Hold on to your bunnets; We are on an exhilarating journey which has only just left the station.
Our recent vision has proven astute. Our quest and patience with Eddie Howe is now being justified
It was sound judgement and a correct vision, although we waited far too long.
As for NFL. We will always be in his debt for what he achieved and what he endured for the Celtic family.
However many of us questioned his appointment in the shower. We should not have let the heart rule the head.
Our unity was shattered with some fans emulating huns and inappropriately chasing buses to make their feelings heard.
Everyone knew the game was up for Neil, i so wanted him to win the SC in December and resign in triumph and with dignity.
Neil persevered too long and resigned a few months later when we were 18 points behind and rumours abounding about loss of dressing room etc.
Withstanding that, Neil will be assured of legendary status at Parkhead. The gates have not welcomed a better servant.
As for the players who chucked it, yes chucked it, they will not age favourably in our illustrious unbroken history.
On these pages, we have watched, encouraged and groaned with Celtic. We always bounce back with renewed vigour and energy. No matter what we don’t chuck it. We accept failure with the cravat that we have given 100% .
We pick ourselves up, learn and do better next time. Despite official denials and MSM lazy journalism, we know when players did not giving 100% .
Anyway that’s in the past, the present is bright and the future can be cosmic.
Hail Hail to all, the journey continues.
Got it hopelessly wrong last night.
Hibs , hibsed it yet again.
The sheep are really baa, baa bad.
Good morning all from Govanhill.
CELTIC40ME on 9TH NOVEMBER 2022 12:11 AM
Ok fair enough, we’ll leave it there. I won’t be dedicating more time to this today because yesterday’s piece by P67 was not about Lennon. It was not about GVB. It was an attempt to defend his ‘close source’.
GARYGILLESPIESHAMSTRING on 8TH NOVEMBER 2022 7:58 PM
Big Jimmy
Sorry for my delay in replying. I was out all afternoon and have just caught your posts as I read back.
Many thanks for your offer.
I have a relative who normally uses my ticket for the SEVCO games but I have been left a few timeswith the ticket when he couldn’t use the ticket.
I would want to continue giving him the ticket as I do at the moment but would be happy to let you have the ticket if he can’t use it. No payment required.
I’ll keep you in mind and let you know on the blog if my ticket is available.
………………………
Thats MAGIC GARYG.
I of course understand ypur arrangement with your Relative or anyone else.
Thanks for ” Keeping me in mind”, thats all I can ask and expect.
If I am using your Ticket, I would be more than happy to give you some CASH for Beers etc, or you could donate it to Charity etc ?
Thanks again for your response.
HH Mate.
GREENPINATA
Endured 15 first half minutes of that game, the sheep are awful and Livingston too.
What did strike me was two separate bounces of the ball on that carpet. One high bounce goes in the opposite trajectory from a natural one with all players following what they thought would be the direction of the ball. Second high bounce, ball hits the ground and dies on the spot.
There is no place for the carpet in the top league😈
Your
Livingstone v Aberdeen…
I had the CORRECT Score with my Bookie.
2 – 1 to Livvy @ 10/1.
A good start to a Five Timer.
HH to ALL the GOOD Guys on here.
The red wave appears to be more of a red ripple at this point.
HOT SMOKED on 8TH NOVEMBER 2022 8:57 PM
Ticket sorted with Big Jimmy !!!!
…………….
Thanks again mate. I enjoyed our wee Chat last night. I hope you watched the rest of the Osasuna v Barcelona game….it was not a bad game.
Plenty of players rolling around the deck, after hearing a Frank Carson Joke ?
LEWANDONSKI getting Two Yellow Cards and a RED EARLY ON.
Barca did well to win 2 – 1 with 10 Men.
A big Thank You to The MOD or PAUL67 for passing on my Email Address to you.
i will send you an Email soon, and a TEXT to tell you that I have received your Ticket/Card
I now await POSTMAN PAT.
HH Mate.
FAO AN TEARMANN…
A MASSIVE THANKS Mate for passing on HOT SMOKEDS Phone Number !
Thats another couple of Beers that I owe you.
Its FUN being a CELT….
Cheers Mate.
HH
YOUR TICKET/SEASON CARD…
For ANYONE who lends me their Season Card/Ticket etc , its only fair that I advise you that I am NOT A CELTIC CASUAL.
I tend to NOT throw any BOTTLES at Celtic games…….well…. not FULL ones anyway !
LOL.
HH to all the Good Bhoys on here.
Big Jimmy
See you in the Sports bar at Celtic Park on Saturday morning for a pre match warm up.
At the time of the NEIL LENNON Turmoil when his was STILL Manager of Celtic, and all the abuse he was getting at the time from all quarters, there was ONE bright Ray of Sunshine on ONE Day.
I noticed that there were TWO Horses due to run that Day…
One was called ” NEIL THE LEGEND”….and the other was called ” CALL THE DOGS OFF”.
I thought BOTH names were quite apt at that particular time, and I Posted the names of the Horses and where they were running etc that Day.
BOTH Horses WON that Day at great ODDS of around 8/1 and 13/2 ( Im not certain of the Precise ODDS).
I had backed BOTH Horses and it appeared that some other CQNR’s did also after taking heed of my Post. It was a VERY GOOD Double, to beat the Bookies that Day.
AHH….The memories of backing WINNERS….How I long for a return to those heady Days ?
LOL, LOL.
HH to Neil Lennon, and those Two Horses of course.
BIGRAILROADBLUES on 9TH NOVEMBER 2022 8:16 AM
Big Jimmy
See you in the Sports bar at Celtic Park on Saturday morning for a pre match warm up.
………………
I MAY appear EARLY ON in the Sports Bar, but these days I need to be wary of DRINKING BEER BEFORE the game, as I will end up missing half the game going to the Lavvy ?
I am also wary BRRB, of being in the Sports Bar and having to walk some distance to sit in HOT SMOKEDS Seat which is in the Lower North Stand, near the halfway line ?
I’ll let you know my Plans nearer the time mate.
HH
BIG JIMMY:
Is He There Yet? Is He There Yet? Is He There Yet? Is He There Yet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmfriXprSRk
por cierto :)))))))
AN TEARMAN
Thanks for the links, por cierto
POR CIERTO on 9TH NOVEMBER 2022 8:28 AM
BIG JIMMY:
Is He There Yet? Is He There Yet? Is He There Yet? Is He There Yet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmfriXprSRk
………………….
What do you call POSTMAN PAT…..WITHOUT a MAILBAG ?
” PAT”.
LOL.
I hope that you are Fit and Healthy mate.
That WICKED so and so BRRB is trying to lead me astray…again !
LOL.
Only Joking BRRB….I am more than capable of leading MYSELF Astray over the Years.
HH Mates.
POR CIERTO on 9TH NOVEMBER 2022 8:28 AM and SETTING FREE THE BEARS…
I will give you BOTH a WAVE from my seat in the North Stand on Saturday at half time.
IF The Polis haven’t HUCKLED ME by then ?
LOL
HH BHOYS.
Apologies to An Dun and SFTB for my tone last night.
Good morning from a bright and sunny North Staffs.
Sevco accounts out
A £0.9m loss is actually a £5.9m profit somehow.
Its going to be very hard to explain why they didn’t spend big in the Summer at their AGM.
A “profit” from last year, this summer champions league cash guaranteed and big profits from player sales.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63566707
:)))
The Orcs have released their accounts. I will leave others with the necessary expertise to interrogate them but they are reporting profit and a turnover increase.
Whatever about the accounting machinations, we can forget about any imminent implosion a la 2012.
This underscores the need for us to (borrowing a phrase) NEVER STOP. For too many years we limited our ambition to staying just one step ahead. This came back to bite us on a number of occasions, most recently in NL’s final season.
We must push on regardless of the fortunes of the phoenix club. We must invest too succeed with some healthy speculation for accumulation.
AP and our new board have stressed the IMPERATIVE for annual CL football. To achieve this we need to plan a transfer window or two in advance. The signs are good that we are finally doing this. It seems to me that whatever happens we will need further cover at GK, cover or support for Calmac and another top striker. Additionally, our business model will see us looking to make profit on some of our top assets. So, there’ll be no surprise if any when Jota goes for a big profit, possibly Reo too. Anyway these are mere tactics in the wider game. The game is progress. The game is focussing on ourselves alone. The game is never stopping. HH!
FAO BELMONT BRIAN ( and others ?)
Brian…
Go to YOUTUBE and download another graet song..
A girl with a great voice and a great song.
” ROO SAVILL” singing ” CANT STAND THE RAIN”
Its SUPERB Mate.
HH.
Are the huns accounting figures legitimate and accurate. ?
I will leave that to the accounting guru’s , but if the figures are correct and doesn’t include the Bassey and CL monies then despite our wishful thinking they are not going bust anytime soon.
What it reinforces is the reality and importance that is European football. Ange gets this and never again should we prioritise domestic football over European football.
A club our size and stature MUST compete in both arenas. Realistically our clubs and any marquee signings aspiration can only be realised by European football.
European football refreshes the parts that domestic football cannot reach.
To stand still is to stop, and as we all know: We never stop”
HH. Our journey continues in Scotland and beyond.
DEXTER P. BAMPOT on 9TH NOVEMBER 2022 9:25 AM
Great Post and mirrors my thoughts.
HH.
Huns in the black. Pity they sold the family silver.
SETTING FREE THE BEARS FOR RES. 12 & OSCAR KNOX on 8TH NOVEMBER 2022 11:45 PM
Excellent post by a contender for CQN POTY .
Big Jimmy
Yes, good to chat last night. You ar more sensible on the `phone :-)))
Card is one hour into its journey south .
Off to the golf.
Cheerio for now.