All it took was one man, Eddie Smith, who joined the referees strike a year ago as their body became embroiled in allegations of lying, bullying and sectarianism, to make it his business to report Celtic fans to Uefa and the SPL, and the support are besieged on two fronts.
After decades of the police turning a deaf ear to illegal and offensive chanting elsewhere this might appear opportunistic, but Smith’s motivations are irrelevant. We have endured ‘the songs debate’ here for years, the only thing universally agreed upon is that as long as a single Celtic fan sings political songs at a game, this day would come.
I sincerely doubt that Celtic fans sing anything illegal, which perhaps explains why the police encourage observers to ‘police’ the stands, but no one denies many people, including a number of Celtic fans, find such singing offensive. There is, therefore, scope to mount an attempt to discipline the club, and an easy route to inflict reputational damage on each and every Celtic supporter.
The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.
Don’t take the notion that attempts to prosecute are likely to fail as legal advice. In my experience, lawyers become a lot less certain once proceedings are underway.
On a separate note, I was pleased to read Iain Blair of the SPL differentiate pro-IRA chanting from sectarian chanting. Lazy jounos everywhere take note.
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Cheers lads i can’t wait for this to explode they are wankers the lot of them…
Just watched Michael Kelly on STV, i have to admit that he was excellent. He put up a very spirited and correct defence of the Celtic (and other teams for that matter’s) supporters to have a voice, and for the whole interview had McKay squirming. I think they thought he was going to be another media stooge for them who would agree with their (unhidden) agenda.
Well done that mhan, however we should be wary of the wounded animal. This could serve merely to have STV “up the ante”
For what its worth, my own opinion is that we should make an effort to tone some of the “offensive”, perceived or not , singing down. They are watching!!!! and they will take great pleasure in dragging our club through the mud at every opportunity.
HH
HT
:)
Dookin for Chips! I think he does have a slightly melancholic hang-dog expression.
But he hit most marks tonight.
I wish i watched that kelly interview now..
Anyone who thinks that we will ever receive even-handed treatment at the hands of the SFA, SPL, Courts, Government or whoever had better think again. It is not as bad as it was but it still has a long way to go.
Though the big flag row was with Michael Kelly’s father Bob Kelly in 1952, the Irish tricolour was still being blamed for sectarianism—or as it was called then hooliganism—twenty years later in 1972.
Then the Glasgow Magistrates Association urged Celtic to take down the Eire tricolour and Celtic did for a whole season and waited for a reciprocal gesture from Ibrox-the signing of a RC employee.
They had to wait another 17 years before Mo Johnston signed in 1989.
Did the Glasgow Magistrates pressure Rangers to sign or employ a RC? No that had nothing to do with it.
So while I personally don’t like the RA chants or songs and wish that Celtic fans of their own volition would ditch them—because they offend many in our support and are divisive and not because Paul McBride, Pat Nevin or anyone else tells our fans to—those who think that the Celtic haters in the police, parliament, or media would give us an easy ride if they did are deluded.
These bigots would simply turn their attention to something else and if they couldn’t find a really negative story they would invent one, like the two drunks in Barcelona singing the rebs in a bar.
This is a make or break time for our club and we had better be ready to fight our corner, starting with a series of away boycotts and home rallies of support. Capacity crowds at Parkhead and empty away terraces elsewhere in Scotland would send a message to the whole of Europe that we have had enough of double standards and cheating in Scotland.
For those of us who cannot watch STV, what did Michael Kelly actually say?
I think we are all getting so caught up in the detail we are missing the very big picture. We can argue about how appropriate certain songs may or may not be, but this is far more serious.
In N Ireland, you can be the unapologetic former OC of the Derry Brigade (who helped destroy the centre of that city) and a member of the General Army Council, yet be elected deputy First Minister.
In Dublin, the British Queen Elizabeth can lay a wreath in tribute to men who fought and killed British soldiers.
However, in 2011, in Scotland, a 17 year old boy can be arrested and held without bail for a song about a now-defunct organisation that NEVER attacked Scotland.
This is Kafka-esque!
NatKnow @ 23:19
Good post.
Natknow
What was said…I missed it.
He was very robust in denouncing the attacks on Neil
Last tine round the Hun were at their most malevolent.
HH
The programme on BBC NI on the Orange Order did not tell us anything we did not already know.
At the height of Drumcree parade dispute when 3 Catholic boys were burned to death in their beds, a Ku Klux Klan spokesman spoke out against any comparison between his organisation and the Orange Order.
No that’s not a joke, that was bona fide interview with a Klan member distancing the KKK from the OO.
Árd Macha
hen1rik- Sorry for the mis-spell of your name.
Re Michael Kelly- well done, in fact, bring back the Board!
Pity Jeanette Findlay didn’t join him to give it to MacKay both barrels.
Snake..
He started by stating that the furore had been a gross misrepresentation of the Celtic support and had been blown out of proportion.
He also stated that while some may find political songs offensive, they had the right to sing them.
Snake Plissken
Paddy McCourt’s Fenian Army!
Michael Kelly. Rotten director, great politician! What part of “sectarian”, “offensive” or “illicit” do these bozos not understand? Lead in to the stv show talked about “illicit” chanting, which then became “pro-ira”chanting.
I’m not in favour of any pro ira chanting at all but these guys are making it up as they go along!
At the risk of indulging in the much maligned “whataboutery” I just wished Michael had mentioned the “ilicit” chanting which goes on in every football match in Scotland every week which never makes the news or is reported to uefa. But, the bhoy did good.
re pubs and the bill(y)
Offensive Behaviour
The ‘offensive behaviour’ offence will cover offensive or threatening behaviour which would be liable to incite public disorder at or on the way from or to a football match and will extend to public places such as pubs where football matches are televised.
Govt version here…
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/About/programme-for-government/2011-2012/OffensiveBehaviour
does this mean that, if a fella shouts somethin out in the pub, he could get huckled ?
or is it only if it would be liable to incite public disorder ?
point is…..what is deemed to be DISORDER ?
surely, a bunch of folk singing in choral unison is not disorderly ?
hence, loophole in their bill !
WHICH WOULD BE LIABLE TO INCITE…. ?
again, surely a bunch o folk enjoyin one another’s company in a pub would NOT be liable to incite disorder ? hence, so long as they are happy in one another’s company, they can sing what they like ? tim or hun !
another loophole !
load of mince, this stuff !
properly enforce current laws !!!
that’s what we’re lookin for – stop wastin time wi this new fangled jiggery hunguffery !
Bankiebhoy1
Thought ol Huckleberry Kelly did grand :)
On a serious note I think Jennette Findlay has been very astute in deciding not to appear on the programme tonight. There was nothing to be gained by her doing so.
Tomorrow’s papers would have blazed ‘Celtic Trust Member Sings IRA Anthems’.
We need to box clever. Maybe, just maybe, tonight was the start of our comeback.
Reposted from my Facebook page, and congrats to the Celtic online family for the relentless efforts of today.
——
The Green Brigade have announced that after a day of intense pressure from the Celtic worldwide family, in an effort to draw global attention to the plight of a young 17 year old fan, arrested in the early hours of the morning, and remanded in custody for singing a Republican song, that tonight the Lord Advocate of Scotland himself has stepped in and released him from custody. This is apparently action taken to avert a gigantic PR headache.
I can’t speak for the Green Brigade, but I know some of you are members and others know people who are, but I hope this matter is not allowed to rest. The young man and his family should find themselves good legal representation first thing in the morning, and consider getting themselves some PR representation at the same time, and bring this case the global attention the sectarian elements of the Scottish criminal justice system seems eager to avoid.
Crimes by the state against the people are the most nefarious crimes of all and as such they should never be allowed to stand. This is one of the most egregious I have heard of in Scotland in many a long year. It must not be allowed to simply go away or be dropped. This is a victory for every person who posted on a forum, who wrote a letter, who made a phonecall or sent a text, spreading the word and raising awareness of this deplorable situation.
But it’s not over. This is not the end. It’s the beginging.
I do trust however that they won’t be calling Paul McBride for legal advice. When someone leaves the Scottish Tory Party because they’re not reactionary enough I would suggest his credibility, such as it was, is shot.
MK put up a very robust defence of the right of anyone to free speech. He drew a distinction between the Provisional IRA and what he called the “romantic” songs relating to Ireland’s history. He defended the right to offend in a democracy and attacked the proposed legislation to crimilalise football fans. I think he got the balance just right. He did note that Celtic would need to be seen to take some kind of actions. Also pointed out that Paul McB has changed his mind on so many issues over the past 12 months that it’s difficult to find him credible any more.
HT
Hope so, we haven’t boxed clever for a wee while, and I’m no longer in the mood to take this nonsense on the chin.
As PJ would say – Roll on The Comeback………….
If Celtic supporters/ groups think they are in for a fight, maybe they should adopt the tactics of this group, Отпор.
hen1rik
Not got catch up T V??
Kevtic says:
15 November, 2011 at 22:38
With respect to your Moniker in two days, and two threads containing nearly two thousand posts that is the most misinformed, and downright insulting post that has been my misfortune to read ( including my own )
I suspect you’ve not been to Celtic Park since before Fergus McCann, you are at the wind up, drunk, delirious, or all of them.
You could write to celticquicknews@gmail.com and ask for it to be removed, it’s very unhelpful, you might have clicked on a the youtube link,been to a wild rebel night but you’ve never heard that song sang inside Celtic Park by any collection of Celtic fans.
Henr1k, Rancho
Michael Kelly defended the right of supporters to sing Political songs, he also mentioned the differennce between the Provisional IRA and the IRA. He also told Mackay that many of these songs related to the struggle in 1916, McKay asked him if we should not move on as it was a long time ago. MK replied, no, we Scots sing about Kiliecrankie and Bannockburn. Cue major squirm. Priceless!!!!!!!!!
goldstar10 says:
15 November, 2011 at 23:26
Its sound m8 us tic fans have got more to worry about like how to get this orange order banned lol….
hamiltontim @ 23:32
Definitely a tactical manoevre. MK was rolled out this time last during the laughable MIB strike which was concocted to sully our reputation worldwide as well.
His reference to the polis speaking to Labour politicians about Salmond’s stupidity was quite a nice wee move as well. Divide and conquer, right back at them :)
Bankiebhoy1
Saturday at Inverness should be interesting, on and off the park.
reilly1926 says:
15 November, 2011 at 23:09
Kevtic:
So the GB are singing a song to the same tune as “Armalite”.
______
Ok many apologies to Green Brigrade and thanks to you and the rest for putng me right expecting this issue to blow since the St Johnstone game when it was first sung. So what are the words to the GB version?
Fortune Favours –
Cheers mate. I like that routine lot. Scotland’s politicians are determined to create a monoculture. We are sinking into what john Stuart Mill called the “tyranny of the majority”
Well done Michael Kelly.
Never missed a beat, plus exposed the fact that the original concern by the Police related to wife beatings associated with high profile games,and not the reasons it is currently addressing.
Why is it after a debate of this type,I feel better because of a guy NOT on the Board?
Just saw Gary Hooper getting pulled out of the press conference today when a question was asked about the investigations.
Brilliantly done Celtic. Treat the Old Media scum with the contempt they deserve.
bournesouprecipe says:
15 November, 2011 at 23:37
Thanks – will do.
well done Michael Kelly and the green brigade and i hope the 17 year old lad has not been to traumatised by the heavy handed treatment he has received
Green Brigade Statement
On the 29th of October, 2000 Celtic fans came together in Glasgow’s George Square to hold a very successful and peaceful rally against the SNP’s anti-Football Bill. They listened to speakers from the Fans Against Criminalisation campaign detail how the Bill criminalises football fans and the Celtic support, and how dangerous it would be to extend the law to give even more powers to the police.
After the rally, fans then proceeded on to Celtic Park. Along the way they picked up a heavily-manned police escort, complete with helicopter. Inside the stadium there was a further show of opposition against the Offensive Behaviour at Football Bill, with over 100 supporters clubs displaying banners against the Bill and in support of Fans Against Criminalisation.
While the campaign could call on the overwhelming support of Celtic fans, Strathclyde Police clearly were not on message. Fans arriving at the stadium after the protest were greeted with a warning from a senior police officer: ‘you aren’t above the law, we are the law’. During the following 90 minutes and the fortnight since, the police have tried to prove their point. Although we are used to petty harassment from police and constantly being under video surveillance at matches, we were surprised to see a far larger than usual police presence in 111 – there were reportedly 20 officers in and around the stairwell in front of our section.
The match was pretty uneventful – goalless on the park and nothing out of the ordinary off it until the last 7 or 8 minutes of the game. Then, Strathclyde Police made their move. Hand-held cameras in place, they attempted to arrest someone within the section but many fans did not take kindly to their attempts to charge into a crowd and held off police who were pushing and shoving them. The police retreated empty-handed but after the match they again tried to apprehend someone as fans were walking out of the stadium. This time their (again, unsuccessful) attempts saw a young girl barged over and a crush was only narrowly avoided. The operation was clearly pre-planned: it was the first time in two seasons that the police have entered the rows of our section, it happened on the same day as Celtic fans held a successful demonstration against the criminalisation of our support and as we later found out, preceded a police complaint to the SPL delegate about ‘offensive chanting’. It seems that Strathclyde Police are Alex Salmond’s boot boys.
A few days after the Hibs match, reps from the Celtic Supporters Association and Celtic Trust met with Ronnie Hawthorn, Celtic’s Operations Manager, to discuss their concerns about the behaviour of the police. They requested a meeting with Eddie Smith, the match commander who had directed the police’s operation. At previous meetings with Smith (ironically enough, about safety issues), Smith told both the CSA and Trust that he welcomed dialogue with fans. Not this time, however, as Smith refused to meet the fan representatives. The CSA and Trust then wrote to his boss, Chief Superintendent Wayne Mawson, asking for a meeting. Unlike Smith, Mawson said he would be happy to meet but that he would not be willing to discuss the events of the 29th. Unsurprisingly, his offer was turned down.
Since then, Eddie Smith has made official complaints to SPL and UEFA match delegates about ‘offensive chanting’ by the Celtic support at the Hibs game and the subsequent match at home to Rennes. Smith is also the Crown’s main witness in a case against two of our members, both charged with a sectarian breach of the peace for unfurling a banner containing the word ‘huns’ (the only other witness is a member of Celtic’s security staff, himself a former police officer). The SPL and UEFA investigations prompted by his complaints will be conducted while the Scottish Parliament debates and votes on the anti-Football Bill, and will no doubt be covered at length by the media. We doubt this is a coincidence. Already, the propaganda war has begun – today the back page of Glasgow’s local rag carries, under a lurid headline, comments from a publicity-hungry QC close to the Celtic board who calls on us to be banned. It seems he has joined the ranks of the legal establishment who are determined to take a boot at our group and the wider Celtic support.
At 7 am on Friday morning, a 17 year-old fan was arrested on suspicion of a sectarian breach of the peace, and for evading arrest at the Hibs match. He spent the weekend in police cells and yesterday appeared at the Sheriff Court. After the Procurator Fiscal appealed the judge’s decision to grant bail, the young fan was remanded in custody in Polmont Young Offenders Institute until December 23rd. You haven’t misread that – that’s a 17-year-old Celtic fan locked up for allegedly singing a song that Eddie Smith finds offensive.
Celtic fans, and ourselves in particular, are under attack from the government and the police, who are determined to criminalise us for their own ends. We really appreciate the support we have had already, and we will be considering our next actions carefully over the coming days and weeks. In the meantime, we call on all Celtic fans to oppose the criminalisation of our support and to unite behind the Fans Against Criminalisation campaign
Hail Hail
Kevtic
Taken like a Celtic fan
Hail Hail
FFM
The last couple of times I’ve seen him on live TV I’ve been impressed. It’s a plus that as he’s not directly linked to the club he can possibly get away with raising some points that others could not.
He does have a lot of making up to do, however.
Derbyshirebhoy,
I think ernie lynch is the only poster who states that he wants to sing the RA songs at games.
ernie lynch says:
15 November, 2011 at 14:28, page 3
I don’t know if he is a youngster who is too immature to know better or if he doesn’t even have this excuse. Fortunately I think he is in a tiny minority and this one line can be dropped and save us a whole lot of hassle.
I don’t think this would be the end of the matter and I suspect they will come after anything Irish but then is the time to fight back. The RA line must go.
RanchoFranco says:
15 November, 2011 at 22:29
I dont know if you saw my subsequent but important change (after I reread my post). The offer would be conditional on getting something similar from the Rangers support.
Appeasement is giving up something in the hope it will have the desired result. Negotiating is having an aim and making an offer the other side find hard to refuse because doing so puts them where you are.
Kevtic says:
15 November, 2011 at 23:38
So what are the words to the GB version?
——————————————————————————————-
Being of an age where my short term memory is shot to peices I can’t help you there. I can however tell you my old Mums co-op number from 40 years ago.
Hamiltontim –
“He does have a lot of making up to do, however”
Oooft! Is there a Pulitzer Prize for Understatement?
;-))