All it took was one man, Eddie Smith, who joined the referees strike a year ago as their body became embroiled in allegations of lying, bullying and sectarianism, to make it his business to report Celtic fans to Uefa and the SPL, and the support are besieged on two fronts.
After decades of the police turning a deaf ear to illegal and offensive chanting elsewhere this might appear opportunistic, but Smith’s motivations are irrelevant. We have endured ‘the songs debate’ here for years, the only thing universally agreed upon is that as long as a single Celtic fan sings political songs at a game, this day would come.
I sincerely doubt that Celtic fans sing anything illegal, which perhaps explains why the police encourage observers to ‘police’ the stands, but no one denies many people, including a number of Celtic fans, find such singing offensive. There is, therefore, scope to mount an attempt to discipline the club, and an easy route to inflict reputational damage on each and every Celtic supporter.
The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.
Don’t take the notion that attempts to prosecute are likely to fail as legal advice. In my experience, lawyers become a lot less certain once proceedings are underway.
On a separate note, I was pleased to read Iain Blair of the SPL differentiate pro-IRA chanting from sectarian chanting. Lazy jounos everywhere take note.
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Kevtic
I’ve read on here that the Armalite song is sung with entirely Celtic lyrics not the original political ones. I’ve not heard it myself in any form.
thomthethim
“self serving ignoramuses”
Hmmmm. Being a bit gentle tonight!
Mort
Cheers, and in the great words of KOJO…. a hoap we are mates for evererer.
JD
Vmhan,
I hope the bhoys can step forward with maturity and agree as one to replace RA with Celts. It would demonstrate maturity and it would move the debate on to a more fertile ground for all concerned.
EDB,
This to me is the key point which Celtic will focus on. The charge, if there is indeed a charge at all, will focus around one word in one song, for which Celtic have an oven-ready defence in that an alternative version has been played regularly over the tannoy. However, Celtic will look for procedure and process. They will look for a change in process and procedure, who, why and when. They will look for consistency of procedure (perhaps a bit of whataboutery?) but critically, process and procedure needs to be consistently applied and seen to be consistently applied.
I’m certain that Celtic will be able to demonstrate that this has not been the case. This will be why Celtic are patiently waiting for clarification on a number of issues, which I am certain they will attack vigourously.
Unfortunetely the reputational damage will have been done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL1HnDGTAK8
Taken from Celticunderground
We have reached a crossroads for our club. News that Celtic is to be investigated for alleged “pro-IRA chanting” during the recent home match against Hibernian and “illicit chanting” against Rennes came as no surprise to this observer.
In The Rivals Game – my book about football derbies in Britain – I offered a close examination of Rangers’ problems with sectarian chanting and the resulting action taken by UEFA and the authorities closer to home. What I also feared at the time was that because it is convenient – in as much as it requires no depth of thought or facing of home truths about Scottish society – to peddle the myth that the Old Firm are, by association, ’as bad as each other’ there would be a reckoning for Celtic in time.
What I said in 2008 was that ‘Concerns have been growing among the (Celtic) directors that simply by being the other half of the Old Firm the club may be next to be scrutinised. So it has proved after UEFA redefined its rules to outlaw what they describe as any ‘extremist ideological propaganda.’
It also seems that the wheel has turned because the conditions are now ripe for pursuit of the Celtic fans at home. The anti-sectarian bill currently making its way through the Scottish Parliament is a dog’s breakfast, of that there is a general acceptance. But make no mistake it could result in us losing a great deal of freedom at Parkhead as well as away grounds.
The question now is – what should we do, as supporters, and what should the club do in our interests and the good name of Celtic?
It may seem perverse but there are lessons to be learned here from Rangers. Again while researching my book I discovered a depth of feeling against David Murray and others in charge at Ibrox at the time, for what the grassroots fans saw as boardroom negligence in failing to take on the media portrayal of the club, and reluctance to defend its traditions (though odious of course).
With that in mind then, there is a chance, here and now, for Peter Lawwell go on the front-foot; to make it clear that Celtic is no ordinary club, but one formed by migrants from another country, with a different culture. The songs of struggle (through various eras) reflect hardships at home and abroad and have long been part of a sporting institution which has always been outward looking and welcoming to those of all faiths and nationalities.
Mr Lawwell himself knows –as perhaps politicians at Holyrood are coming to understand – that there is no one size fits all solution. In 2006 he told The Scotsman: “A proportion of our fans celebrate those (Irish) roots and links by singing Irish ballads. In no way could those ballads be described as sectarian but I think in some quarters it is misrepresented as sectarian.”
The way I see it, he was right then and remains right to this day. It would be incredible for the law here, or as UEFA interpret it, to make criminals of people who sing songs which can be heard and enjoyed by locals and tourists alike in pubs all over Ireland, most nights of the week. What kind of a society would criminalise songs – such as the Boys of the Old Brigade, Sean South and so on – celebrating the founding of modern Ireland? Put simply: one in which being Irish, or of Irish extraction, was a problem.
I take it that other migrant communities in Scotland – Italian, Indian Pakistani, Chinese and the like – would also have to think twice about possible transgression in song.
We must not shirk this issue though by fooling ourselves into believing that there is no debate to be had. Donald Findlay himself once told me, looking back at his impromptu cabaret performance which cost him his post as Rangers’ vice president that people, had to be aware of “social attitudes changing”. That is true of the Celtic support today.
Not aware of pro-IRA chants being heard at sporting events in the Republic of Ireland.
Only appear to be sung at Celtic games, probably by people who’s only connection to Ireland is that they have drank a pint of guinness!
We can expose the hun and make the media’s job harder by cutting out the RA staff. There are so many great songs to sing in celebration of Celtic. The huns songbook is full of hate and is of limited vocabulary. They can’t help themselves, we can.
Ooh ah up the Celts!
Mort says:
15 November, 2011 at 22:12
Can not agree with you there
“Not uncommon with what the Real and Continuity IRA are doing now, regardless of whether or not we agree with their actions. No doubt during the 60s and 70s members of the official IRA didn’t agree with what the provisionals were doing.”
I understand where you have come from however, the reason I can not accept it, is that the sticks decided, during a militaristic and unionist armed time to follow a marxist route. God knows how or why – must have been smoking too much weed.
You can not draw a single parallel with what the provisionals did to what the real and continuity are doing.
They arent defending their community
They arent policing their own communities
They are not trying to achieve a united Ireland
They have no strategy whatsoever
They serve no purpose other than to stifle SF.
(Im not saying SF dont need to be stifled btw, Eirigi were nearly there however were too interlinked with the above)
No parallels at all.
Hail Hail
Kevtic says:
15 November, 2011 at 22:38
‘Why do the GB insist on signing My Little Armalite?’
Oh dear.
And you were doing so well up to that point.
celtic40me – 22.40
I think you ask 2 questions of me in your post both at the beginning – the answer is yes
Oglach
I look forward to reading your book.
Goodnight to all good tims whatever sings you sing.
Football anyone…?
STV doing their best to obfuscate………..
66 members expelled for attending a mass. 200 thrown out for marrying a Catholic.
BBC Spotlight programme on OO.
Lovely people.
Lads have i missed something with guidi,craven?
Kevtic:
So the GB are singing a song to the same tune as “Armalite”.
Got news for you – that tune has been used for countless songs prior to the words of said song being put to it.
You remind me of the radio huns that claim to hear songs about Davie Cooper, The Ibrox Disaster and Omagh after hun games.
Michael Kelly
Brilliant on STV news
‘ My Little Armalite?’ i haven’t heard that it years and never heard it being sung at any Celtic game.
my friends and i had our on song in Belfast taken from cool hand luke i believe it
” Oh the RUC think they are big and mean but i don’t care cause my M16 is sitting on the dash board of my car,
Oh the RUC think they are big and scary but i don’t care cause the virgin mary is sitting on the dash board of my car,
Do you think it will catch on with the GB (Very tounge in cheek)
Wonder what agenda the Red Tops will be going with, eh?
BTW – well done to Michael Kelly ( I didn’t think I’d be saying that too often)
Have to say I thought Michael Kelly spoke well on STV.
Big Dan has a remarkable gift of being of transforming into Wee Dan as soon as a cross ball is delivered into the box. Has anyone actually seen him beat a player in the air to a cross ball? Even when unchallenged it can be lottery as to whether he will make contact. Quite remarkable.
Oh dear. The freeloader is back.
You really are shameless and gutless.
The enthusiasm of the phone-ins tonight to discuss the UEFA hearing was interesting……….even more interesting was the Celtic fan highlighting the fact the song being used into UEFA is on sale worldwide on the open market (The Celtic Anthem….Wolftones)……..the pundits couldn’t answer that one…..!!!………..then it was highlighted to the pundits that the law covering offensive chants wasn’t actually a law yet….silence again…….that is all…!!!
Great result for Ireland tonight………thought Aiden looked assured again……really good team spirit in that Irish team
Malceye
You’re basing that on absolutely nothing other than a prejudice against both parties. We both know that’s the case.
In a classic passive aggressive last word grabbing move I’m off to bed.
When the political is ‘illicit’,
When the rebellious is ‘offensive’ and
When the traditional is ‘sectarian’
Then true Celts should defend our right to free speech…
Simples…
Save your pontificating on the song book til the criminalisation of our support is ejected and defeated.
ElDiegoBhoy says:
15 November, 2011 at 22:55
thomthethim
“self serving ignoramuses”
Hmmmm. Being a bit gentle tonight!
share
I know. I’m in a good mood.:>)
Ejected = rejected
Michael Kelly did well on STV. Got the argument across and pulled no punches. Noever thought I’d say it but “Well done Michael Kelly”!!
Oglach
A great repost of wise words.
HH
HumzaYousaf Humza Yousaf
Michael K completely missing the point. Freedom of speech allows us 2b offensive but not 2the point of inciting public disorder #scotnight
As much as Michael Kelly was reviled as part of the old board, any time he’s been wheeled out by BBC Hunland or STV he’s put up a great fight on behalf of Celtic, the support and the Irish diaspora in Scotland.
Ron Burgundy couldn’t outflank him tonight, but at least he wasn’t even remotely as aggressive as the “impartial” Beeb Scotland presenter Kelly was up against last year.
Credit where it’s due to the beardless one!
TTTT
Henr1ck
Someone was on either here or KDS saying a big story about referees was On the horizon. Maybe this is where it is coming from.
MK dropped a bit of a bombshell there as an aside.
The polisman (don’t think he named him) has been meeting with Labour politicians to tell them their concern way back at the start of all this, before the introduction of the “bill” was domestic violence, and Salmond has picked the whole thing up wrong.
Let them drown each other in their political pools of pish.
There you go kevtic. This shld get your feet tappin!! H H
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0impJmZlBKA
Henr1k- In a nutshell, Guidi on Clyde said that a Glasgow Referees Association Grade 1 referee will soon be outed regarding his part in the ongoing victimisation suffered by Steven Craven.
Good on you, Mark and Steven.
Here’s something for all the Polis (Eddie, Les etc.) who are so easily offended…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg
He may look like he’s been dooking for chips but hats off to Michael Kelly for that performance tonight.
He was eloquent, reasoned and he managed to include some points that our biased media have so far ignored.
STV wheel Michael Kelly out at times like this in the hope that he will make a complete arse of himself (and us). I didn’t see his bit tonight but I remember during the “Dougie Dougie” saga last season he left ex-ref and lawyer Kenny Clark looking like a novice. The old guy has still got the passion.