Charles Green, owner of “The Rangers Football Club Limited“, formed in May this year, yesterday released a remarkable statement yesterday, ahead of the SPL Commission into How Rangers FC, formed in 1872, registered football players for over a decade.
“In short, what was decided by the SPL membership is that Rangers was finished as a member of the SPL. Despite this, the SPL now see the new owners of the company, and the new company itself, which owns all the assets of Rangers FC – including SPL championship titles – as fair game for punishment for matters that have nothing to do with us at all.”
We dealt with the purchasing of history on here some months ago. Once we realised it was possible, I snapped up ancient Egyptian history, the period from the pharaohs until Mark Antony. I AM responsible for the Pyramids of Giza but any slavery which may or may not have been used in their construction is NOTHING to do with me.
No one complained about the use of slaves at the time and I am sure each pyramid would have been constructed whether slaves were used of not. If slaves were so necessary for the construction I am sure “we” would have built many more.
Mr Green seems keen to protest against the SPL process, however, he, frankly, fails miserably. He doesn’t “question the impartiality of the individual panel members” but assets “whatever decision they reach is a decision of the SPL”.
So that will be independent members reaching a decision for the SPL! I think he doth protest too little.
There is also a threat: “”To make it crystal clear, the new owners purchased all the business and assets of Rangers, including titles and trophies. Any attempt to undermine or diminish the value of those assets will be met with the stiffest resistance, including legal recourse.”
Charles Green took steps to undermine his new company’s claim on Rangers titles in a BBC interview in June when he said that if his CVA proposal was to fail (which it did) and Rangers were to be liquidated (which they are), “the history, the tradition, everything that’s great about this club is swept aside”.
“Legal recourse”, which is prohibited by Fifa and which the SFA accommodated from Duff and Phelps, acting on behalf of Rangers, will provide Scottish football with a further drama. We mentioned at the time that the true cost of the SFA being so accommodating would be a repeat performance.
Mr Green asks why the “football authorities do nothing to address an issue that was public knowledge for at least two years, and was reported in the Club’s accounts for several years”? I think I can help here. Sir David Murray, who owned Rangers during the duration of its Employee Benefit Trust years, categorically denied that the club issued players with second contracts which were not submitted to the authorities. He reiterated this point most recently on a Sky News interview in March.
The football authorities have no issues whatsoever with Employee Benefit Trusts, it’s player contracts they insist are registered. Rangers insisted they had no case to answer until the SPL set a deadline on Duff and Phelps to fully disclose the nature of the alleged second contracts.
Charles claims during those lurid weeks when the SPL and SFA were negotiating with Green, that Neil Doncaster “repeatedly stated he was not interested in stripping titles from Rangers”. If he had evidence of this, ANY evidence, it would be fascinating.
If not, we should dismiss this claim.
A curious barb is made in other directions, “Rangers was not the only Club in Scotland to use EBTs yet nothing was done and little has been heard about it”.
One more time, for Mr Green’s benefit, EBTs are not against football regulations whatsoever. They are entirely legal and permitted by the SFA and SPL. The SPL Commission is not investigating whether Rangers used EBTs or not, it will investigate whether or not all player contracts were registered.
Mr Green goes on to make varied comments against “powerful representatives from Clubs within the SPL…. who appear hell bent on inflicting as much damage on Rangers as possible”, and that some “clubs were placed in an invidious position and we believe their interests were not best served by those in more powerful positions”.
Let’s have some context here. If we were to make a list of those who inflicted most damage on Rangers, representatives from other clubs would scarcely merit a mention. Those who allowed the club to spend more than it earned for so many years, who introduced the perilous tax avoidance system, those who failed to make accommodations for HMRC’s claim when it was first made, and those directors who personally benefited from the EBT scheme all carry primary responsibility.
Then would come the cheerleaders for the disastrous Craig Whyte regime – those who last year campaigned for the takeover, including putting pressure on Lloyds Banking Group to accept the terms.
Rangers opponents were spectators throughout this period. Any suggestion that our club were anything but opponents to Rangers, and alleged victims of trophies won by illegally registered players, when they should have been campaigning on behalf of their rivals, seriously misreads what was an established Glasgow rivalry. Of course it would be the same the other way – and rightly so.
Despite clearly feeling strongly about the Commission, Green didn’t address the key point….
There was no denial of the central charge that for a decade or more Rangers fielded improperly registered football players.
Yesterday some people suggested Green had offered the Lance Armstrong defence but Armstrong denied he was guilty while refusing to participate in the investigation into doping. This is a different matter altogether. Green has offered up something for every conceivable paranoid condition without actually claiming Rangers are wrongly accused.
The headlines today are all about titles being stripped but that is not the main topic in play. More importantly, after titles are stripped, what punishment will the SPL Commission levy on the Rangers membership, granted to Sevco in June?
The sheer scale of the charge makes this question incalculable. The toxicity attached to that membership is untenable and no bogeymen at other clubs, at the SPL or SFA are responsible for that.
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hamiltontim
It’s still in the online version.
So far!
HH!!
They have disabled the comments I think because there were some the first time I looked, now there are none.
MIKI67 0951
Give it time,mate.
Soon we will be told the article didnae exist,and we’re all paranoid fantasists.
Actually,I don’t think we can be called fantasists-we wouldnae touch anything orange….
I am sure someone will can report back today with the abuse that Mitchell will now be getting on Hun meeja and FF
I cannot recall exactly what the Sky commentator said last night….
Something to the effect that this latest appearance by the “Divine Peanut”….
As Scotland Captain….
Ensured That He Equalled …Or Exceeded
Danny McGrain’s Haul Of Scotland Caps..
Glad Dalglish Missed Out On A Couple Of Caps At The End….
After Declining To Play For Scotland In The Argentina World Cup….
Because He Was Just Too Exhausted….
And His Golf-Partner At Liverpool….
Hadn’t Made The Squad….
Kenny Dalglish….COARNER-BOY..!!
Please Take Up Any Further Discussions ,Wi Ma Dear, Dear Compadre
KOJO…..
As I Shall Be Indisposed….
He’s Just Hitched Up The Horse N’ Buggy
And Will Be Mosey-ing Over Fae The ‘Ponderosa’….
Very Shortly….
kevjungle – murdo..10 men championees..1979
09:33 on
12 September, 2012
That was part of the Herald article, not my comment ……….
Tallybhoy
10:03 on 12 September, 2012
_____________________________________________________
The hun domination of the Scotland support
disappeared when the huns signed
Butcher Woods Roberts
From that moment on
Brittania ruled the waves :o)
You see – thing is
WE(Celtic fans) know who and what we are and where we came from.
How many make-overs have the huns had in their existance ?
Better still – who cares ?
miki67
09:46 on
12 September, 2012
Apparently, The Herald has stuffed its trumpet and spiked the Mitchell piece.
Must be the masonic censor who rules Scotland at work
………
Its still.there, go to the herald site and go to the football section, its about the 4th article down.
I think some people are actually hoping its pulled so they can scream blue murder about that
There’s a Panorama show coming up called Old, Drunk and Disorderly….something like that….should be hilarious…..us old ‘babyboomers’ goin’ on the rampage coz we’re just so fed up with the mess our contemporaries have made of the world.
Well….I always knew the 60’s were a momentary lapse of reason, and Johnny Rotten flogs butter now.
It’s enough to drive anyone to drink drink drink. If I could, I’d be guttered on a regular basis.
I wish I lived on Craggy Island.
greenjedi
Just logged in again, cheers for reply.
Definately remember McClair being boo’d coming on as a sub. Also remember big Roy getting it. Think it was after he left for Newcastle.
67Heaven … I am Neil Lennon..!!.. Ibrox belongs to the creditors
10:08 on 12 September, 2012
___________________________________________________
My apologie’s.
Wires seem to be crossed kinda morning – CSC
greenjedi
10:11 on 12 September, 2012
“I think some people are actually hoping its pulled so they can scream blue murder about that”
_________________________________________________________________
Aye. Me too.
Sack the bored :o)
Comment in the Herald.
“I think we are entitled to know who is reading the online article by Roger Mitchell in the Herald.”
“Who are they?”
“Tell us their names, and where they live?”
“Signed, Alistair.”
SOUTHSIDE
Could be right on the button about Roy there. His move was certainly taken badly by one or two of us-though there “may” have been personal reasons for it……
TSD
1978 Scotland squad for Argentina lists Kenny at no 8.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_FIFA_World_Cup_squads#Scotland
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
10:02 on 12 September, 2012
__________________________________________________________________
I apologise for having to put you straight but – straight it will be!!!
I was referring to the game were Big Jock left out Tommy Burns from the World Cup squad who were going to Spain 1982.
Get yer facts right :o))) CSC
Big Roy Aitken gave me memories to treasure and take to the grave.
But, he let himself down when he said that – after Gerry McNee had criticised Roy’s performance in a Scotland game that – the criticism was enough to make him have to
leave the country ?!?!?
Yes, thats right Roy.
It had nothing to do with the signing-on fee at Newcastle ?!?!
KEV 1023
He also left out DP,I think.
Tommy was raging-I remember an interview soon aftr where he felt that Jock still thought of him as “Wee Tommy” from when he was still manager.
But,with respect,I fail to see why the crowd would have been shouting for Willie Johnson when he had already been banned for four years by then?
Anyway,disnae matter-as I said,the gist of your point was bang on;our players were regularly given grief.
More trouble for the Sevconians’ favourite referee…
http://m.local.stv.tv/glasgow/news/189800-ex-referee-jeff-winters-home-raided-by-police-over-anti-catholic-blogs/
Now this p*** International football is over with for another while we can get back to what really matters. There might be doubts over Shiels and Little but hopefully both can be fit.
Alexander
Argyriou Perry Emilson Wallace
Black Macleod
Little Shiels Templeton
McCulloch
Still not convinced with our defence but we don’t have a lot of options. Will we get our first away win in SFL3?
HA HA HA first away win in SFL3
Meanwhile over in the east end of the city the football aristocrats of Glasgow prepare for a hectic September schedule of C/L games and Scottish premier league games , it feels good
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
10:28 on 12 September, 2012
_____________________________________________________
Agreed M8 :o)))
I apologise if I came on too strong there. Sorry.
We’re still pals – CSC
I walked out of Hampden (never to return) during the game against Bulgaria in 91 when John Collins was booed coming onto the pitch as a sub for ironically WGS.
KEV JUNGLE 1027
Roy was overdue a testimonial,and it was being lined up for the following season.
He didn’t leave for financial reasons,football reasons,or sniping from the press.
Brian McClair was jeered coming onto the pitch in a home match vs Malta by his own ‘supporters’, a match Scotland won 3-0.
To show the deep routedness of the bigotry on show, he wasn’t even at Celtic at the time, but clearly the fact he used to play for Celtic was enough.
HH
KevJungle – Murdo..10 men Championees..1979
10:27 on
12 September, 2012
Big Roy Aitken gave me memories to treasure and take to the grave.
But, he let himself down when he said that – after Gerry McNee had criticised Roy’s performance in a Scotland game that – the criticism was enough to make him have to
leave the country ?!?!?
Yes, thats right Roy.
It had nothing to do with the signing-on fee at Newcastle ?!?!
………………..
And 100% nothing to do with rumours of his friendship with a woman who worked at CP either, got that 100% NOTHING to do with it!
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
10:31 on 12 September, 2012
____________________________________________
OK.
But I have to leave just now for medical reasons :o)
God Bless
Hail Hail
laters….
greenjedi
10:35 on 12 September, 2012
__________________________________________
Now, I know i’m not the most popular guy on here but
I would never go were you have just gone. NEVER!!!
Anyway, have to go this time.
God Bless Hail Hail
laters….
ITALIABHOY 1028
Why now?
Were they waiting for him to save up for a new laptop?
I mean,I doubt the current HD will hold anything incriminating-it’s not that difficult to zero back a hard-drive.
Which reminds me,gonna have to do some work on mine before I head back to my Mum’s…….
When Green bought rangers he paid £2.75 Million for players contracts, £1.5 Million for Ibrokes, Murray park and the Car park and £3 Million in fees to Duff&Duffer.
Oh! and £1 for the SPL share and £1 for the SFA membership. I take it he got the £1 for the SPL share back…
What the huns did,do or will do, will never determine my attitude to anything.
What really matters.
Serious news from Benghazi.
KEV JUNGLE 1031
1-ABSOLUTELY
2 NOT AT ALL,IT’S A BLOG…..
3-OF COURSE!
There must be a profile out there for the eager flag-wavers out there who enthusiastically embrace wilful political naivety- you know the type: nothing is transparent to them ( they think a door is a wall?) and they question nothing of authority. But the most galling thing about these ‘types’ is that they always have such a simplistic world-view based on premises like “the world would be a good place if people like tramps, winos, gypsies, jews, asylum seekers, the poor, paki’s, blacks, homo’s, kafflicks…and any other scapegoat you can think of. “if these evil people didn’t exist then the world would be perfect and good and full of people like us”.
The worst evil is to believe that evil is never in us, its always in someone else.
Does der hun come to mind?
Hi All,
Looking for some restaurant recommendations in Glasgow please since its a good while I’ve been out of the picture there, all cuisines and price ranges considered, help appreciated.
Cheers
Swiss
Quote from Roger Mitchell article “Fact Rangers oldco was not ejected from the SPL. The fact that Rangers went into liquidation automatically expelled them from the league.”
Quote from an ignorant knuckle scrapper
It didn’t take long for the lies to start. On claim 1 in fact.
Rangers do not even have a liquidator appointed at this time. That is a fact. The lie offered above by Mitchell is not a fact. It cannot be because it’s, well, factually incorrect.
The rest has all the credibility of an article posted in a regional newspaper by a liar.
The crisis at Rangers deepened last night as HMRC appointed their liquidator to prevent an asset sale to a newco in the event of Charlie Green’s CVA proposals being rejected. With the assets of Rangers recently valued at over £100m HMRC have appointed insolvency specialists BDO to step in if the CVA fails.
Duff and Phelps have already nominated themselves as liquidators of Rangers but the move by HMRC to bring in BDO will ensure an auction of assets to raise as much money as possible to be split among the creditors.
Rangers have over 300 trade creditors, including football clubs in Scotland, England, Italy, France, Sweden and Austria.
No wonder Charlie takes them for fools
Swiss Tony -we had a good meal recenty in Brian Maule’s.
The restaurant is near Blythswood Square, French cuisine.
We had the pre-theatre deal, excellent VFM.
Good Morning ( again )
Yesterday morning, The former PGA golfer, Ryder Cup Player and BBC Golf commentator Peter Alliss, compared Andy Murray’s US open victory to a team from Mexico winning the 4 man bobsleigh at the winter olympics!
It is a dramatic analogy but it does actually stand some scrutiny when compared with the dreaded statistics!
For example– James Ward Britain’s next highest ranked male tennis player is rated at over 200 and something in the world. I have no idea who Scotland’s second best player is— probably the very same person as Dunblane’s second best player– and that would be Jamie Murray. Beyond that, I suspect there are no rankings to actually measure the status of the next Scot with a scintilla of talent with a tennis racket!
Andy Murray doesn’t fit the bill for a tennis player– and I mean that in absolutely no disrepectful way.
He does not take to the court with an adonis designer like persona, with a swagger or the looks of a Borg a Federer or a Nastase type. He does not (often) have the humourous entertainment value of McEnroe or Connors– unless you see him taking the mick in practice sessions where he impersonates other players at times, and plays football with a tennis ball.
No, Andy Murray is a big gangly Scottish boy with tousled hair, a grungy dress style (on the court) who permanently looks as if he could be from up the road– and that is because he is!
I don’t think he would mind me saying that his appearance is not that of the classic stylish tennis player– to be frank a designer T shirt on a bin may well look more stylish— and in that regard he perhaps does not have the same marketability of the Spanish Nadal, the Swiss and swish Federer and the chiselled Serbian Djokovic.
Yet despite the country of his birth, his extremely Scottish appearance and motion, Murray is regarded one of the big four in what is being hailed as a golden era of Tennis.
He can really play!
Together with Federer, Nadal and Djokovic, Murray completes a quartet who have fought out something like 90% of the last 30 major tournament finals. Clearly Murray lags behind Federer and Nadal by a long way in terms of final appearances, and he has competed in roughly half the number enjoyed by Djokovic.
Yet Flushing Meadows was Murray’s 8th Grandslam quarter final in a row, and his record of getting to the last 4 of the big tournaments is extremely high in the last 3years or so.
Yet, Murray is a strange tennis player– because he is not nearly as good as he could be……. and knows it……. and the other three know it too!!!
For me, one of the key moments in Andy Murray’s career came at Wimbledon this year where he lost in the final and had to make that tearful speech with the microphone on the Wimbledon Centre Court. That day he could not help baring his sould in public– laying bare the hurt for all to see—- and giving us an idea of… well… doubt.
Tennis is very much a mental game where you often fight yourself, your beliefs and your doubts as much as the player on the other side of the net. That day at Wimbledon, having gained a set on Federer, Murray could not sustain the mental and physical effort and so lost.
His speech on court revealed how much that hurt… and you cannot and never will reach the top of the tree in a sport such as tennis if you don’t really feel the hurt of losing at that level. Murray said later that he “did not want to be that person ever again”— and since that day he has been a very different player indeed.
It hs been said of Murray that if he had played in almost any other era, he would have won far more by now and would have had his name writ large in the record books by this stage. Murray himself has acknowledged that may be so but says that whilst he may have won more in another era, he would not have been nearly as good a player as he is….. purely because the competition was weaker… and to come anywhere close to succeeding in this era you have to be a great player– a really great player.
Yet how do you take a big Scottish lump and turn them into a world class tennis player?
Well a lot of that work has been done. Murray moved to Barcelona in his mid teens to take tennis ever more seriously and won the junior US open and Wimbledon by 17.
Yet stop and think on that– he achieved that level just a few years after he started playing under the Spanish sun– until then it had been the Dunblane drizzle.
The other three will have played from a far earlier age in more clement conditions, longer light, and on better surfaces than Murray. Yet Murray competes with them at their best.
Yes in his training camps he does three hours of gym and fitness work per day ( two x one and half hour sessions ) and two similar sessions of tennis training– making 6 hours a day, seven days a week– before facing the tour proper.
But that alone won’t get you there– no you need something else– you need the heart, the brain, the soul and to be honest nerves of good old fashioned Scottish granite.
Whatsmore, it was clear that Murray needed something else that his coaches and coaching had simply not given him– and so someone somewhere suggested calling Ivan Lendl.
Now lets be honest– who really liked Lendl as a Tennis player? No one!
He wasn’t Connors, he wasn’t McEnroe, he didn’t say much, didn’t smile much, seemed a bit characterless, a bit dour and just battered the ball with power power and more power. There were no drop shots or spin shots just relentless flat hitting until he changed his style and started using very heavy top spin. But he still battered the ball– crash bang wallop—- he didn’t have anything like the deft touches of Murray.
However what Lendl was– was consistent. He competed in 19 Grand Slam singles finals, a record surpassed by Roger Federer only in 2009. He reached at least one Grand Slam final for 11 consecutive years, a record shared with Pete Sampras, with the male primacy of 8 consecutive finals in a slam tournament (a record shared with Bill Tilden at US Open). Before the formation of the ATP Lendl reached a record 12 year-end championships (equaled by John McEnroe). He won two WCT Finals titles and five Masters Grand Prix titles, with the record of 9 consecutive finals. He also won a record 22 Championship Series titles (1980–89) the precursors to the current ATP Masters 1000.
Lendl first attained the World No. 1 ranking on February 28, 1983 and bolstered his claim to the top spot when he defeated John McEnroe in the 1984 French Open final– coming from two sets down. For much of the next five years, Lendl was the top ranked player until August 1990 (with a break from September 1988 to January 1989 when Mats Wilander was at the top). He finished four years ranked as the world’s top player (1985–1987 and 1989) and was ranked No. 1 for a total of 270 weeks and set a new record previously held by Jimmy Connors, since broken by Pete Sampras and Roger Federer.
In short, unless Ivan had an off day, or his opponent had a super up day, Lendl won!
He won an amazing 81.8% of all singles matches, and 94 ranking tournaments (144 in total) Lendl retired from tennis in 1994 at the age of 34 with a disability insurance payout for chronic backpain. He transferred his competitive interests to professional golf where he achieved a win on the Celebrity Tour and is still competitive at the mini-tour levels,
Lendl is very different to Murray– yet similar.
He too was gangly but fast about the court, not keen on the limelight and the press and of course lost his first 4 slam finals.
He came from a tennis family with his mother being a ranked player. His serve was inconsistent, while his ground strokes were delivered with machine like consistency.
He couldn’t take to the uneven bounces on grass and so never won Wimbledon.
He said the orther day that he felt that Murray was “maturing nicely as a player and a man”– now isn’t that an interesting statement?
You see Andy Murray- despite all that he has achieved has a whole lot more to come out of his locker– according to Lendl. For the first time, Murray’s coaching is not geared towards what Murray thinks is good for him, but what someone who has been there and worn the t shirt tells him is good for him.
Murray has good groundstrokes not killer groundstrokes where if given the chance he will destroy the opposition with forehand or backhand. Murray grinds down opponents and has the ability to pass– Lendl wants to develop that more– the reading of the court and increase the power to leave the opponennt helpless. Lendl thinks Murray can be far better from the back of the court– a thought that may not please his fellow competitors too much.
Nadal, Federer and Djokovic rank in the top 3 for points won on second serve. Murray ranks twelth!!!!
If Murray ups his points winning ratio on second serve then he significantly improves his effectiveness against all comers– and that then leads to something else.
Lendl has said that the more often Murray gets to the slam finals the more relaxed he will be in that enviroment and so the better he will play. He will get to more finals, he will become more tactically aware and mentally strong, and he will improve the strokes and serves.
That then leaves that area where Lendl excelled– the 90 seconds between games and the two minutes between sets.
It only takes a few seconds to have a drink, towel your raquet and so on– and that leaves a player time to….. think! And if you are playing someone who has an aura of being consistently tough, consistently good, consistently pressurising and improving…. your thoughts can be destructive with the result that you let the gremlins in and you actually beat yourself.
Over the past year, Andy Murray ha started to believe, to be ruthless and to dominate the exchanges in the chair– forcing the other guy to think. Even when the likes of Djokavic fights tooth and nail to get two sets back— he has to pay a price, both physical and mental, and should he slip for a minute then a stronger willed and less tired Murray is free to pounce and triumph.
That is the message from the gangly taciturn czech born Lendl to the gangly tousled haired scot– and at the moment the other three at the very top are being reeled in.
If Andy improve as Lendl expects– they will be left in his wake for a time.
One last thing re Murray and Lendl.
As I said– who ever liked Lendl? and I answered- no one!
Well the unknown side to Ivan Lendl is his very strong family routes– and remember Murray praised the importance of family around him. Lendl says that his real full time job is looking after “team lendl”— and team Lendl are his 5 daughtes.
Until teaming up with Murray,Lendl devoted much of his time to managing the development of his daughters’ golfing abilities. Two of his daughters (Marika and Isabelle) are members of the University of Florida Women’s Golf Team. Daniela is a member of the University of Alabama Women’s Golf Team. His daughter Caroline walked onto the University of Alabama Women’s Rowing Team for the 2011–2012 academic year, and his daughter Nikola enjoys eventing horses.
He is a father figure to team Lendl and a professional coach to Andy Murray. He is a professional coach and adviser to team Lendl, and if not a father figure to Andy Murray ( whose own father is an unsung hero in this tale ) then certainly a guiding light, a shoulder to lean on and a provider of wise counsel.
Oh.. and if any of the CQN golf fraternity ever come across a vaguely familiar big guy with a foreign accent and a team Lendl shirt on one of your golf days– or even if you come across an a young lady with dark hair and an American accent wearing the same T shirt– and they suggest you join them in a little competition……. if you agree to play then you are about to get horsed!!!
Ivan and Andy– a winning team— or as I like to thenk of them:
Czech Murray!!
David Taylor and Platini are personal friends. These well established cheating oversights were done under David Taylors watch. I expect compromise from UEFA.
How the case for grass roots football can be made in Scotland is anyones guess
From ex employees getting bungs ten years later to David Taylor UEFA side kick to Platini ?
Can the game be cleaned up ?
Over to you Monsieur Platini ?
Having watched the SFA still employing a man whos only qualification for the job is keeping his gob shut. While we pay Rupert Murdoch to watch an EBT select
analyzed honestly by EBT millionares one of whom walked out on the Scotland job while the MOTM who should have seen red and was banned for life by the SFA for giving the nation the finger
lionroars67
10:47 on
12 September, 2012
Is it still the case that technically neither of them are correct, the liquidator is appointed but they haven’t actually been put into liquidation yet?