Apologies to all who, like me, tired of the circular ‘songs debate’ on CQN many years ago. Back in 2011, when Celtic had a similar action from Uefa to defend as they now face, I predicted a slow train wreck:
“The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
“I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
“Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.”
A few weeks later I wrote:
“Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
“While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.”
Since then:
Uefa and the SPL have reprimanded Celtic.
Efforts have been made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which mostly fail.
Despite pleas from Neil Lennon, or earlier from Jock Stein, some insist on signing political songs. As Jock and Neil were ignored it remains an act of vanity for lesser mortals to try to convince others to desist.
Charges have been brought for expressing sentiment similar to that in Flower of Scotland.
Celtic have not, should not and cannot try to mitigate IRA chanting or banners as inconsequential. It is not inconsequential, Jock Stein knew it a long time before the SNP government. Fill your boots on debating why it has consequences below, it’s a huge intellectual topic, you’ll enjoy it, then you’ll get bored of it and move on.
If you want the opportunity to have a Debating Society on this, there is space on the comments section, knock yourself out. I’ve been through the songs debate often enough to know some of our community feel it is incumbent upon them to sing IRA songs at football games. Pointing out the words of Jock Stein, or the inevitable conclusion to this singing, or how things have developed in Ireland, will not change this perspective.
That’s the thing about slow train wrecks, nothing can stop them. It’s more productive to plan on how to deal with the aftermath.
Congratulations to the Bucketeers who raised over £26k for the costs of mounting an appropriate legal defence to the Dam Square five. This is a stunning amount of money raised, which demonstrates the strength of feeling among the support.
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If it’s a slow train crash, couldn’t we just step off just before the collision?
Mo Mo Super Mo
Mo Mo Super Mo
Mo Mo Super Mo
Super Maurice Bangura…..
..sounds familiar…
oldtim67
GR8 post…lets wait for the Dims and Rebels to repond
GET 111 SHUT NOW
Cultsbhoy
that is 100% fair comment.
MWD for a hun yuo’re quite insightive. :-)
OldTim67
How are you buddy?
Did you read the GB statement as well as the PLC. I imagine the truth lies somewhere in between the propaganda.
MWD
michael__67
I disagree I think today’s article is a distraction from the core challenge which is how do we keep fans engaged for the next 7 months?
How can we persuade the Board to avoid making the same error in judgement again?
Why do we never capitalise on the good times but instead squander opportunity through short sighted ‘strategy’?
I Often Dream Of Trains
MWD
:-)
Cultsbhoy.
Booted out of Europe so early?
I fear that it’s you that needs an attitude adjustment if you think that it’s our right to be in the top 24 teams in Europe every year without fail.
The slow train crash I am dreading is the one heading for Haymarket on Sunday. We better be up for this.
On Tuesday night the GB banner was thought provoking for
an entire 30seconds.
My mind soon reverted to worrying about what formation would
we play,if given a chance can anyone score,and finally would
our 6ft 6″inch England international goalkeeper command his
6 yard box.
Alas my football worries were not displaced.
They now pale into insignificance.
Tuesday was a UEFA match.Their baby.Their rules.
Live with it.
Last night I watched the LFC channel game Parkhead 89.
Many of the songs clearly heard had add-ons.
Through the years they have been ditched.
That is progress.
James McGrory,Paul McStay and the IRA came in later
years.A connection I cannot fathom.
Ditched add-on & rightly so.
I have sympathy with the GB.
I know a couple of guys who have been members for years.
As Celtic fans their credentials are not in question.They follow
the team far across Europe and Scotland.
The last time I spoke with them 8months ago the conversation
quickly moved from football to politics.
They see little distinction between both.
This supporter would not mourn the passing of any song
involving the IRA. It is just not required at Celtic games.
Celebrate our Irish origins without it.
Time has moved on.
winningemmel
Entering tunnels ?
have we signed Propoganda now ?
£5m striker .
the reports he wrote about himself, he sounds some player.
“Here I am at the end of the day
With a cup of cold coffee
From the station buffet.
On Trains, on Trains I seem
To spend my life on Trains.
See the blue suit banker in the ticket line.
Got an Evening Standard with Playboy
Hidden behind.
On Trains, on Trains he seems
To spend his life on Trains.”
Who knows where it comes from? Who is going to own up to knowing? Not that DBBIA, that’s fer shore
Brth
Previous blog.
You hammered home a few nails there.
There is a fundamental reason why this debate never ends and it is to do with the fragmented grouping of the support and the inability, because the will and so the mechanism does not exist , to establish common ground and purpose.
That lack of will applies from top to bottom.
It is time we as a support, indivisible from the club and so from Board down, had a long hard look at ourselves, establish what our purpose and aims are and only promote activities that support common goals.
In the absence of an agreed common purpose furrows are ploughed in different directions.
Honest mistake
I’m sorry you set your ambition so low.
I would have like 3rd place to ensure participation in meaningful football post Christmas or I would have reluctantly accepted 4th after the final
game but 4 th with a game to go against 2 teams who we could have overcome had there been slightly greater investment in Strike force does not meet my ambition for Celtic.
I have no intention of realigning that attitude…
Fitba and politricks ——–
Any truth in the story that The Great Panjandrum has stated that Celtic will win the Champions League if you vote Yes ?.
Off oot in the rain and cold . Weather man says snow is a possibility . That’ll be a novelty.
ps, ban all under 21s from the matches, thats the future.
pests.
allthough i blame their parents, and their not sitting at the back of the bus republican and socialist idealists that they were,
ban them all, keep celtic park safe from such university and well dressed persons.
Slow train wrecks is it? And the consequences?…
On Twin Earth, a brain in a vat is at the wheel of a runaway train. There are only two options that the brain can take: the right side of the fork in the track or the left side of the fork. There is no way in sight of derailing or stopping the train and the brain is aware of this, for the brain knows trains. The brain is causally hooked up to the train such that the brain can determine the course which the train will take.
On the right side of the track there is a single railroad worker, Jones, who will definitely be killed if the brain steers the train to the right. If the railman on the right lives, he will go on to kill five men for the sake of killing them, but in doing so will inadvertently save the lives of thirty orphans (one of the five men he will kill is planning to destroy a bridge that the orphans’ bus will be crossing later that night). One of the orphans that will be killed would have grown up to become a tyrant who would make good utilitarian men do bad things. Another of the orphans would grow up to become G.E.M. Anscombe, while a third would invent the pop-top can.
If the brain in the vat chooses the left side of the track, the train will definitely hit and kill a railman on the left side of the track, “Leftie” and will hit and destroy ten beating hearts on the track that could (and would) have been transplanted into ten patients in the local hospital that will die without donor hearts. These are the only hearts available, and the brain is aware of this, for the brain knows hearts. If the railman on the left side of the track lives, he too will kill five men, in fact the same five that the railman on the right would kill. However, “Leftie” will kill the five as an unintended consequence of saving ten men: he will inadvertently kill the five men rushing the ten hearts to the local hospital for transplantation. A further result of “Leftie’s” act would be that the busload of orphans will be spared. Among the five men killed by “Leftie” are both the man responsible for putting the brain at the controls of the train, and the author of this example. If the ten hearts and “Leftie” are killed by the train, the ten prospective heart-transplant patients will die and their kidneys will be used to save the lives of twenty kidney-transplant patients, one of whom will grow up to cure cancer, and one of whom will grow up to be Hitler. There are other kidneys and dialysis machines available, however the brain does not know kidneys, and this is not a factor.
Assume that the brain’s choice, whatever it turns out to be, will serve as an example to other brains-in-vats and so the effects of his decision will be amplified. Also assume that if the brain chooses the right side of the fork, an unjust war free of war crimes will ensue, while if the brain chooses the left fork, a just war fraught with war crimes will result. Furthermore, there is an intermittently active Cartesian demon deceiving the brain in such a manner that the brain is never sure if it is being deceived.
Moonbeams WD. Kano 1000 \o/ Supporting Neil Lennon 100%. Champions. C’mon Wee Oscar.
Did you read the GB statement as well as the PLC. I imagine the truth lies somewhere in between the propaganda.
I’m fine. What I posted is just my opinion, I never read the GB statement, or CFCs either, I just put two and two together, when The GB managed to get their seats back, I thought they had accepted what Celtic would stipulate and that would be to behave yourselves, or you won’t be back..
jist in.. fae the jiggin’
Sir Paul
Paul..Pal..
Ye chose a very Important Subject..
and..
Ye jist wrote wanna they… Magnum Opus…or.. wiz it no . a Tour de Force?
or..mebbe it wiz .. an Opus Magnum.. ? .. oan it.
well.. whitevah it wiz..
It..
Wiz a Stunner o’ a Piece..
It wiz a Shinin’ Example o’Great writing, pal.. and ye know how Ah admire.. THAT!
Yes, Yes, and Och Aye!
Ah endorse and agree and concur, wit every syllable o’ whit ye jist penned.
You telt ’em Kid..
And Ah and Forty ither Frenchmen.. say
Great Woik ,Kiddo!
We ur Proud o’ Ye..
Fur Ah coulndae hiv pit it bettah, Masel.
And that’s for a Fact.
Kojo
Still ,Laughin’
old tim & mickbhoy1888,
R u sure your not Father Ted and Father Dugal? waving yer wee placard of “Down with that sort of thing”! an apolitical UEFA doesnt exist, FFs half the posters on here had to have the GB tifo explained to them after the Aberdeen game and the CL game,I do not support IRA,but can recognise the point, and target,of the display.
When is the right time to protest?pray tell.
HH
blantyrekev
12:21 on 28 November, 2013
I have a tracker mortgage on which I pay 0.5% interest, I expect to be arrested shortly.
http://footballtaxhavens.wordpress.com/
__________________________________________________________________________
Absolutely PMSL while I read that!
So,we should get kicked out of Europe because we managed to negotiate a low-rate overdraft?
Hurting, hurting huns!
HH
Cultsbhoy
So potentially SPLoB funds the GB banners to evoke this diversionary topic avoiding discussion of the abject failure of the team as a result of a failure to invest and weakening there of, which allows more money for his bonus? Clever!
I have it on good authority that he does not tip either!
For what it’s worth, I agree re the smokescreen.
What’s happening with Res 12 BTW?
HH
CRC
That Smoke and Mirrors is a great poster!
See how he/she used terms like Dims and Rebels to make you think he was a troll?
There is more to him/her than meets the eye….that’s why the name’s so clever
Auldheid
Do you not think it is the fragmented nature of our support that has kepth the checks and balances on our club throughout the years. Speaking with one voice would lead to something akin to what the huns did to their club.
One of our biggest strenghts is the fragmented nature of our support as there is always someone to question any given issue.
MWD just my opinion.
Cultsbhoy.
From castigating the team for being second in a 2 horse race in a dead end league to castigating the team for failing to be in the top 24 teams in Europe every year, and all within the space of two years. Something’s consistent.
If you can point to a team that can achieve top 24 every year with our resources then I’ll readjust my expectations. Until then you are being unrealistic but probably just to have a whinge about the team.
angelgabriel
We are losing our focus with side issues.
Give me a scoring centre forward and a creative midfielder please.
And bar them all from the Corinthian.
C’MON THE CELTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OldTim67
That is my point. The GB disagree with the PLC on the point that they have broke any agreement. As ever. polar opposites but the grey truth will lie therein the middle somewhere.
MWD
cadizzy @ 13 34.
I own up to knowing .Many Italians like prog rock .Bearded men with a codpiece and a flute get regular airtime .
Hi Paul67,
Like yourself I don’t get involved in song debates…
It can fierce on CQN from time to time.
But amongst the worst must surely be the time you had the temerity to suggest if we didn’t desist then UEFA would take action against Celtic.
From memory this came on the back of another Rangers censure by UEFA (Barcelona maybe?).
You were called everything for the deceitful scaremongering you were espousing…
When we were fined and Censured and the well earned Fair Play Seville Era bit the dust I don’t remember one giving you, your due for being correct, never mind apologising for their vitriol.
With some you just can’t debate.
Hail Hail
Cadizzy @13.38- Radar Love?
The three main players are:
The Green Brigade;
Celtic FC;
UEFA.
Who is most at fault?
UEFA certainly get my vote . Pompous organisation.
JJ
Shuggiebhoy67
When is the right time to protest?pray tell.
HH
Any time and where,but not at Celtic Park,that’s a place for playing Football, or trying to play football.
PhilBhoy
Pal.. Ah am wit ye oan that
While, maist folk ,oan here.. are Snatchin’ at Flies..
There’s a Big Buzzard, that is Knocking Hell oota oor Tail- Feathers!
Celtic, are in Deep.. No No.
We need a Centre n a Whole New Mid Field.
That should be the Subject fur Discussion..
No.. awe these Circular And UNSOLVABLE .. Arguments ,that are going oan here.
Yes, Pal…
Ye Goat THAT Right.. so ye did..
Nice chattin,kid
Kojo
Still, Laughin’
Modren intermittently active Cartesian demon deceiving the brain in such a manner is rubbish.
Philbhoy
Did you see my post re A;aan Swankie?
JJ
oops ALAN !