The disappointment online and among supporters in general since Tuesday’s defeat in Rotterdam has been tangible. That’s an indication of just how hopeful we had become, despite extenuating circumstances and an away track record that should have prepared us for much worse.
Frustrations were shared by the squad, who know they let an opportunity slip. For me, a reversal was always on the cards. The game came too soon, with a mixture of players who made their debut just days before and ended with our seventh choice (arguably eighth) central defender stepping up.
We need games and results like that. There is little to learn from wins over Dundee; even the victory at Ibrox can only inform to an extent. You learn more from defeats in places like Rotterdam and Bodo than in a season of home Premiership games.
It should also ground you and me. When Celtic win just-so-many-trophies it becomes difficult not to re-orientate our expectations that the current era is normal. The CQN demographic suggests most of us have lived through the barren 90s and many of us were there during the 50s and early 60s, but even we get dragged into despair by the odd draw. What chance the kids?
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Happy Friday eve!
We absolutely need to set our standards above the domestic game. The basket case south of the Clyde is no longer the bench mark.
Paul67
Too right Paul67, according to some we’ve already ‘lost ‘ a treble.
Talk about entitlement
Sheesh cSc
“You learn more from defeats in places like Rotterdam and Bodo than in a season of home Premiership games.”
The problem is by the time the players have learned from it they are sold off and replaced with a new batch that need to re-learn the same lessons.
ProjectsOverProgressCSC
QB
QUADBHOY on 21ST SEPTEMBER 2023 12:11 PM
I was in the process of typing that , totally agree👍
Summer 2021:
Liam Shaw
Osaze Urhoghide
Liel Abada
Kyogo Furuhashi
Carl Starfelt
Joe Hart
James McCarthy
Josip Juranovic
Liam Scales
Giorgos Giakoumakis
Filipe Jota (loan)
Cameron Carter-Vickers (loan)
Winter 2021
Ideguchi
Hatate
Maeda
Summer 2022
Jota
Cameron Carter-Vickers
Alexandro Bernabéi
Daizen Maeda
Aaron Mooy
Benjamin Siefrist
Moritz Jenz
Sead Haksabanovic
Oliver Abildgaard (loan)
Winter 2022
Tomoki Iwata
Alistair Johnston
Yuki Kobayashi
Hyeon-Gyu Oh
Summer 2023
Luis Palma
Maik Nawrocki
Yang Hyun-jun
Gustaf Lagerbielke
Mario Tilio
Odin Thiago Holm
Kwon Hyeok-kyu
Tomoki Iwata
Nat Phillips (loan)
Paulo Bernardo (loan)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Forgive me if there are errors. How many of these signings were a Hit or a Miss?
Paul67
My prediction- you are gonna get a lot of flak for this.
Re-orienting my expectations will equal “preparing me for mediocrity” in most eyes.
We are not spending the money that many supporters need to see their ambitions fulfilled. We are bored by league dominance and want to impress the continent now. We have outgrown Rangers and the SPFL so we need a team that is not just Pot 4 whipping Bhoys. We deserve better and we don’t like our current reality.
That said, I think the Board could do with being more communicative about how we are going to spend our record surplus? I don’t expect to hear what level of sum is set aside for Historic Child Abuse settlements but I would like to hear what the plan is for facilities upgrades and how that will make us a better team.
We have known for 10 years that we are failing our promising young players by not giving them a route to first team chances. We only relent when they are threatening to leave. We welcomed the chance to play 5th tier in Scotland but know we need more than that for our 18 to 21 group.
What is the plan? What is the vision? They need a more competitive development environment. We need more initiatives of the Admira Wacker type.
Many congratulations to Msgr Cavanagh on your 60 years of service.
KTF … !
Quadbhoy
We had 8 players with CL experience in our starting line up in Rotterdam.
How many did Feyenoord have?
Like I said yesterday, domestic SPFL competition is very limited in preparing Celtic teams for European competition.
Our competitiveness will only truly improve over time once the volume of Euro games increase in both CL/EL competitions.
My only expectation is for Celtic to be the absolute best it can be.
An Dun – spot on.
It should also ground you and me. When Celtic win just-so-many-trophies it becomes difficult not to re-orientate our expectations that the current era is normal. The CQN demographic suggests most of us have lived through the barren 90s and many of us were there during the 50s and early 60s, but even we get dragged into despair by the odd draw. What chance the kids?
—
Where should our expectations lead us ? Come out and say it Paul, then we can discuss it.
Should we be content that a 120 million turnover club can win the league and cups in Scotland and that should be that ?
Should we have any European targets at all?
Talk of the 50s and 90s is largely irrelevant. Football has moved on and Celtic are now the sole super power in the scotttish game. Anyone that wants to see Celtic grow has to set the bar for success higher than wins at Tynecastle and Ibrox.
“SETTING FREE THE BEARS FOR RES. 12 & OSCAR KNOX on 21ST SEPTEMBER 2023 12:21 PM
Quadbhoy
We had 8 players with CL experience in our starting line up in Rotterdam.”
No idea – how do you measure – #games, #mins, #wins?
I am not sure it’s as simple as that anyway… Perhaps their games in their league teach them to play a similar game to euro games where as I think playing in the SPFL would prepare us more for shootie in / rugby than European football on some occasions.
Perhaps they just have quicker learners? Reminds me of Strachan’s quote (on Graveson was it?) – an older head but apparently couldn’t/wouldn’t learn after being told 3 times he gave up?!
QB
‘Too soon’ was always the call for the qualifiers and invariably it was.
2-0 away defeat to Eredivsie champions with a compliant home ref, seems about right even had it been CCV and Starfelt.
If it was too soon for a single summer signing to have made a contribution so far, that’s another matter.
The good news is that the wait for increased European games is reducing.
If Celtic were to finish 8-24 in next years CL (assuming we qualify by winning the league this season), then we would be guaranteed 10 CL games made up of 8 group games and 2 games for last 16 playoff.
Separately, our co-efficient is taking a hit and I expect we will be back to CL qualifiers in 2-3 seasons. Some seasons we won’t qualify for the CL and dropped into the expanded Europa League (albeit with less so called ‘elite top 5 league teams’.
I think Celtic can win a EL trophy in my lifetime :-0
It’s not all doom and gloom.
BHOY FROM THE BOYNE on 21ST SEPTEMBER 2023 12:39 PM
It’s not all doom and gloom.
…………….
You wanna bet👍
‘We need games and results like that…’
Oh my days/giddy aunt/aching sides, Paul.
We have been so schooled and ambushed by results like that since Seville that surely we’re past masters at it ?
When do we stop learning and ye know, graduate ? Lenny showed us in his readily forgotten Euro glory run.
Love your work P67, but this article must be labelled/filed under – as SFTB sez – Lower Yer Expectations Bhoys.
EuroTrash CSC
‘The game came too soon, with a mixture of players who made their debut just days before…’
Perhaps very true. Begs the question, tho, Why too soon, why fresh debutants with key ties to navigate??
We long knew we were in the ECL; we hoped for a doable starting match; We had a long transfer window but – injuries aside – we again bought late. As was the mode with quallies as BSR noted.
No doom and gloom from me btw, just some puzzled bemusement is all. HH
Quad Bhoy
I am in agreement. with that view. Playing in an 18 team Eeredivisie is closer to the standard required for jumping to CL level than it is for us in 12 team SPFL. But the solution is not to increase the SPFL to 18 teams because we would still face the same problems of too many teams playing “blood and snotters” football.
My main point is we had 8 experienced selections. The transfer window only deprived us of Jota as a CL starter. Starfelt had only one CL match with us- the 5:1 defeat in Madrid. Aaron Mooy was used as a sub in 5 CL matches and played around 150 minutes.
The main loss to our strength was the injury enforced subs- especially the CBs. We had plenty of (lesser) alternatives to Jota’s position and chose Palma. Whoever replaced Jota was always likely to be, initially, a lesser player, but we can hope that one of our wingers will prove to be , at least, an adequate replacement, for one of the best we have seen at CP in recent years.
Good analysis of the Rotterdam talking points by Celtic by Numbers
https://celticbynumberscom.ipage.com/the-false-naivety-narrative/#comment-157943
The happy clappers will be along soon’ if you don’t like it,don’t go ‘ be thankful were not Sevco’ all the usual platitudes, with heids firmly buried in the sand,accept mediocrity and shut up.Imagine if we had a progressive football department and Board like Brentford or Brighton, and before someone tells us about the money they get now,instead look at where they came from. The perennial failure of Celtic in Europe, is truly embarrassing, we have lost 43/73 CL games, the worst of any team who have played more than 50 CL games.Same excuses every year, same condescending statements from a Board,so out of touch with the fanbase, it’s scary,Lawwell said he’s aware of the Cost of Living crisis (it won’t affect him), yet 4 new strips this year, an increase in ST prices,and ridiculous CL ticket prices, specially for kids.A Board,who have no ambition, and are happy to stay a point of Sevco,we just go round in circles.
“Sure it’s a grand old team to play for,
Sure it’s a grand old team bedad,
When you read its history,
It’s enough to make your heart grow sad,
God bless them.
We don’t care if we win, lose or draw,
Darn the hair do we care,
Because we only know that there’s going to be a show,
And the Glasgow Celtic will be there”
“It should also ground you and me”
Gee, thanks Pablo. 😉
I feel grounded just fine.
These are good times.
Random sample … I’ve witnessed us losing
5-1 to Dundee
4-0 to St Mirren
12-1 to PSG across two legs
5-1 to Neuchatel Xamax
1-0 to Lincoln Red Imps
3 successive league games 10-1 on aggregate
A League Cup Final to Raith Rovers
To Partizan Belgrade with (literally) the second last kick of the ball
A league title by a whisker with match officials clearly tipping the balance (2003)
A league title 3418 minutes into a 3420 minute season (2005).
I didn’t sleep particularly well on Wednesday night ….
…. but that had nothing to do with the result in Rotterdam and everything to do with the excess Guinness in my gut and bloodstream.
(Freely acknowledging the concept of “excess Guinness” might seem counterintuitive)
It wasn’t Tuesday nights defeat that has brought anger and criticism.
It was a shambles of a transfer window.
As you say Paul67 the game came to early for some. Why weren’t they brought in earlier.
“It should also ground you and me. When Celtic win just-so-many-trophies it becomes difficult not to re-orientate our expectations that the current era is normal.”
That way unhapiness lies, nothing is surer.
I, like you, lived through the barren nineties but to compare then with now is ridiculous.
For example I never remember us having £72M in the bank in the nineties.
Reading this article is utterly depressing and dripping with acceptance that, since we won’t win the big cup, then we shouldn’t even bother competing.
That is ultimately what most of us want: an attempt to compete by spending money on relatively experienced players who could make a difference.
Our continual buying of “projects’ is becoming a farce. People can point to Hatate and O’Riley but for each of those there is others we have bought that won’t make it.
We are the only club with a “War Chest” who continually send our side into battle without the weapons to win a battle. We don’t want to win the Cup just win a game or two.
From when I was old enough to support a football team until my teenage years, my years as a “kid” as it were, it was the Jock Stein era, so, I was conditioned not to expect mediocrity from Glasgow Celtic (BSR, see what I did there:)
If there is any re-orienteering to be done, it is by the Celtic Board and their activist investor.
The team when we played Bodo at home…
Hart, Taylor, Starfelt, Abada, Jota, Rogic, Carter-Vickers, O’Riley, Maeda, McGregor, Juranovic.
Subs: Giakoumakis, Hatate, Forrest,
The manner of the 1-3 defeat suggested we were far from good enough for the Europa Conference.
Going into the UCL with a weaker team is totally barmy
Only the aged grey men on our PLC Board would have thought that a good idea.
The statements regarding our annual results suggest the Board are hugely out of touch with modern football matters.
They have to build a facility at Barrowfield, upgrade a facility at Lennoxtown and build a competitive UCL squad.
Where is the expertise within our Board or Executive to deliver this?
It’s non-existent, so why would we expect state of the art results with no skill-set to deliver.
SCULLYBHOY @ 12:15 PM – gave us a list of recruits in the last few seasons.
Summer 2021:
Liam Shaw
Osaze Urhoghide
Liel Abada✅️
Kyogo Furuhashi✅️
Carl Starfelt✅️
Joe Hart✅️
James McCarthy
Josip Juranovic✅️
Liam Scales✅️
Giorgos Giakoumakis✅️
Filipe Jota (loan)✅️
Cameron Carter-Vickers (loan)✅️
Winter 2021
Ideguchi
Hatate✅️
Maeda✅️
Summer 2022
Jota
Cameron Carter-Vickers
Alexandro Bernabéi
Daizen Maeda
Aaron Mooy✅️
Benjamin Siefrist
Moritz Jenz
Sead Haksabanovic
Oliver Abildgaard (loan)
Winter 2022
Tomoki Iwata
Alistair Johnston✅️
Yuki Kobayashi
Hyeon-Gyu Oh✅️
Summer 2023
Luis Palma
Maik Nawrocki
Yang Hyun-jun
Gustaf Lagerbielke
Mario Tilio
Odin Thiago Holm
Kwon Hyeok-kyu
Tomoki Iwata
Nat Phillips (loan)
Paulo Bernardo (loan)
Now after the Bodo game showed us we needed to up our game in the recruitment stakes the opposite happened.
We went back to the pure moneyball “Model”
These are the recruits since then…
Summer 2022
Alexandro Bernabéi
Benjamin Siegrist
Moritz Jenz (loan)
Sead Haksabanovic
Oliver Abildgaard (loan)
Winter 2022
Tomoki Iwata
Alistair Johnston
Yuki Kobayashi
Hyeon-Gyu Oh
Summer 2023
Luis Palma
Maik Nawrocki
Yang Hyun-jun
Gustaf Lagerbielke
Mario Tilio
Odin Thiago Holm
Kwon Hyeok-kyu
Tomoki Iwata
Nat Phillips (loan)
Paulo Bernardo (loan)
Considering the talent and experience we have lost since Bodo, it is no wonder we are very much weaker than that uncompetitive team (European wise).
The fact is, the Board and Executive just don’t have the wherewithal to build and implement a modern European Footballing culture, they need reviewed, removed and replaced by those that can.
“How many of these signings were a Hit or a Miss?
Put ticks on the hits SCULLYBHOY!!
Hail Hail
Bhoy from the Boyne
You are spot on.
We don’t get enough decent competitive football to allow us to come close to competing. The step up is too great.
SFTB makes a good point that Feyenoord had little CL experience on Tuesday. They have however played 27 European games in 2 seasons vs our 14.
They do play a higher level than we do most weeks.
No matter if you are a mineshafter or happily clapping there is a challenge with this. There is a similar challenge in recruiting folk to play in a pub league for a team routinely pumped in Europe every year. No matter how many leagues we win.
For 19 years I have criticised our board for not leading in a role to deal with the issue of the playing environment in which we operate. Seeking to upgrade our level of weekly competition and working in a bigger TV market should have been strategic priorities. I even provided possible well structured solutions to work on. Sadly the short term of CL and year to year competing with a ridiculously and possibly, fraudulently, over funded rival meant this never happened. Thereafter from 2012 the marketability of a single club league, or as a single club held little appeal to outsiders.
Who knows when the time will be now to allow any change but 4 or 5 CL home games a season won’t rectify things anytime soon.
Only structural transformation can move us on from clappers v perma malcontents. Only domestic dominance is likely to give us our dopamine hits for near future. Sadly. IMO
Chairbhoy
I don’t agree that Oh, is a hit.
ST TAMS @ 1:34 PM,
Well, good point…
I put him as a hit ’cause as a youngster he has been a valuable sub that has given us something different up front.
No doubts the jury is still out and he certainly was no replacement for Giakoumakis.
Yet with so many “we’ll see!?” On the list, I gave him pass marks.
But your point is very valid…
Hail Hail
Bada Bing
Curious that you found a stat to make us the worst at something.
Hope you weren’t up all night looking for it 😂
It is a good point though. If you have compiled a table you will see all of the poorer percentage performers come from the lower and poorer leagues. How many teams from countries with a population under 6 million have even won a CL game ?
The 4 strips is to compensate for revenue we don’t get from TV. Our CL ticket prices are similar to Feyenoords. Actually mine is 20% cheaper than Tuesdays cost me. Maybe we could have charged more ? I think it’s reasonable aside from kids.
I take Chairbhoys point that the board are a type and it is not a football type. That said they have us in a decent place vs our rivals given the market we are in.
The criticism I have made which creates all the problems is the structure we play in and how we move from this. The board has failed to move the dial with this.
Just like Paris S G have failed to win the big prize despite huge funding, we will fail to win much in Europe’s big cup, no matter the spend. We simply don’t have the competition to prepare us.
My only hope is with his increased involvement in Uefa, with a small country remit, Peter’s eyes might be open to how things can be addressed.
St tams / Chair
Honestly how can we judge any of those bought in the past 12 months ffs.
BURNLEY78
I agree. The root of our CL problems lies in our domestic league situation. Champion League ready players, ones who would help us step up, would also be sought after by clubs from bigger leagues with deeper pockets.
That leaves us with, at best, players with CL potential, which is never guaranteed.
Quality young players with potential, come to us as a stepping stone to the EPL, asap. I think it takes until the second season for a team to be settled sufficiently to make a decent stab at Europe.
Ultimately, the problem lies within the SPFL.
It’s not the projects that let us down though, it’s the inability of the scouting/data dept to bring us experienced players to help those projects along. Now, I’m not speaking about £10/15 million players. There must be scores of experienced pros, whose careers are running down, who would love a chance to play CL football in a 60,000 arena and see out their days in the Hoops! To my mind 2/3 these kinds of players are more than affordable and won’t demolish the wage structure as they will see it as the last chance saloon of making some headlines across Europe, and tell their grandwanes about it, por cierto
BURNLEY78 @ 1:51 PM,
SCULLYBHOY put up a very reasonable post.
Now I take your point, if that list had been put up in August how many of us would have Liam Scales as a hit?
The point is, we knew we had a UCL group stage competition to take part in many months ago.
We should have had a team pretty near full of “hits”.
Hail Hail
Good afternoon all from the Pig and Whistle. Braw. 👍
James McCarthy is an experienced pro who has been useless and expensive to Celtic, when buying players in that age group they have to have fitness. I dont disagree with the need for a blend but it is as much of a lottery as buying a project if the older player has a poor injury record.
BURNLEY78
Bada Bing
Curious that you found a stat to make us the worst at something.
Hope you weren’t up all night looking for it
You give him too much credit.
He lifted it from his usual source — The Daily Record.