I’ve just caught Joe O’Rourke’s article on the Association site about the long-awaited released of statistics on sectarian crime in Scotland. Joe suggests that the data from 2003 – 2010 was has been destroyed by the Crown Office. I also hear that the Scottish Government will release entirely irrelevant ‘information’ today, specifically, where offences took place, not which groups were responsible or which groups were targeted by the offenders.
It takes a lot of effort to make sure you destroy data these days, you need to ensure not only that prosecutors permanently delete backups (which I really doubt they do) but also that the police similarly comply.
Fortunately all is not lost. While it’s just about believable that regional police forces across Scotland and the Crown Office have acted in symmetry on this issue, I could have helped the First Minister, Alex Salmond’s, search for clarity by pointing him in the direction of British Transport Police (BTP). The Transport Police are a separate force who operate across Britain and are run by the Home Office in London. They are also a lot less proficient at destroying data.
They previously gave me detailed statistics on all incidents they record in connection with Scottish football for season 2007-08. One of the most pleasing aspects of the information is the complete eradication of sectarian offences from all but one Scottish club, so the First Minister will be delighted to learn he has a smaller problem on his hands than he perhaps knew. According to BTP, 11 arrests were made for sectarian offences in total, 10 Rangers fans and one Northern Ireland fan.
You can see the detail figures for all recorded incidents here (the majority of which are for non-sectarian issues). From a total of 99 incidents (not all of which resulted in arrest), there were six involving Celtic fans, six for Dundee United, seven for Motherwell, four for Hibernian and five each for Aberdeen and Hearts. Rangers fans were involved in a total of 48 incidents.
The BPT figures also make it clear that most incidents occur when fans travel to away venues. The Force also confirmed that incidents surrounding the 2008 Uefa Cup final in Manchester were not included in these statistics.
To further aid Mr Salmond in his search for clarity on this issue, he can contact British Transport Police with a Freedom of Information request here, where they will be able to provide him (or you) with up to date stats.
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At last shortbread report that “most hate crimes target catholics” . But its only on their tele-text local news.
They left that bit out of their statistics analysis on last nights tv news. They could bring themselves to say it.
Blatent censorship by bbc shortbread . It is outragious what they get away with.
They did however show Neil Lennon’s crack-up with Sally for the second or third time this week.
It’s football time. Seems like an age since our last match.
As always in away games I’m looking for a fast start and an early goal. Just to clarify, that’s an early goal for us, not one lost at a corner.
.
Micky1888..
Re: Lennoxtown..“A Training Ground Too Far..” l have Been Saying that on Here for Over 3 Years..
But No One Listens (Or Talks to me On Here)..:o(
Summa ft Long&WindingRoadCSC
Gourockbhoy
MWD text me to say he doesn’t know of any close to the park..
He meantioned Kellys on Kilmarnock rd or QP Cafe on Victoria Rd
also Argosy bar on PaislyRd West
Huskerpunk 09.55
O’neills is down by the river in Ousegate near the Grand Opera House. Its more an upmarket pub/grill place but might well show the game.
Note that there is a street not that far away called `Hungate’ !!!!
WWC- “time to unite for the fight (wherever your views on political songs may lie)”
On “up the Ra” songs?
Not a chance.
Morning CQN.
In the wake of the “shame game”, where Rangers kicked us off the park, getting three players sent off, with Bougherra subsequently receiving a £2,500 fine for an offence Ryan Francis then received a 14 match ban, the Scottish authorities were given the perfect opportunity to tackle sectarian and racist singing after the League Cup Final bigotfest a few weeks later.
Initially Graham Speirs tweeted this;
“The incessant bigoted chanting by Rangers fans at Hampden was shocking. Unarguably the most socially-backward fans in British football.”
then wrote in the Times on 22 March;
“Another week, another excruciating example of the problem Rangers have with a large section of their support. Walter Smith’s team, going into Sunday’s Co-operative Insurance Cup final as underdogs, won quite a few admirers for their gritty 2-1 win over Celtic.
Alas, no one who was at Hampden Park as a neutral, and who had any understanding of the type of songs that were being sung, could have found anything remotely appealing in the antics of the Rangers support.
For fully 120 minutes the Ibrox legions belted out stuff about the Pope, Fenians, and some of their other favoured subjects.
Quite a few of us have become used to “the Rangers problem” over the years but Sunday at Hampden was still quite an eye-opener. It was the consistent, incessant nature of the bigoted chanting that was truly shocking.
One of the problems we have in tackling bigotry in Scottish football is the sheer ignorance of the subject that we have to put up with. For instance, Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Secretary, clearly didn’t have a clue what he was talking about, to judge from the fatuous statement he released after attending the match at Hampden.
After the prejudiced chants had boomed out, the following was MacAskill’s take on the whole spectacle. “This was the showpiece everyone wanted to see — it was a great advert for Scottish football,” he said. “The players, management and fans contributed to a memorable occasion, and I urge that their positive example inside the ground is replicated outside it over the course of the evening and beyond. Football is a force for good in society.”
Given the nature of what was chanted inside Hampden, this was an utterly ludicrous statement. MacAskill, clearly, is totally unfamiliar with the sort of problems given an airing at Hampden if he thinks that the sort of chanting which the Rangers fans kept up apace represented “fans contributing to a memorable occasion.” This is risible.
I didn’t expect a Rangers statement yesterday on the shocking tone of their supporters’ singing, and nor was one forthcoming. Rangers’ preferred position on their problem is this: let’s just have a general media silence on the subject, and let’s keep any fuss to a minimum. From Rangers’ point of view, the fewer headlines there are about their problem, the less need there is of any requirement to act.
But that is a tough scenario to hope for. The Ibrox club have already been censured by Uefa over bigotry, and more than that, a number of Rangers supporters’ songs have specifically been banned by European football’s governing body. So it is asking a lot for every newspaper to turn a blind eye (or deaf ear) towards songs which have repeatedly been outlawed.
What is more galling for those who want to be rid of this poison is the seeming ignorance — such as was revealed by MacAskill — or inability in government or police circles to be able to fix it.
Hampden on Sunday rang out to bigoted chanting from the Rangers end, yet the police statistics for “sectarian-related crimes” were paltry, never mind MacAskill’s absurd words about how wonderful it all was.
This isn’t government action. On the contrary, this is inaction, and even incompetence. The truth is, we are getting nowhere today with the problem of sectarianism in football. In fact, we are regressing, Edinburgh summits or not, at an alarming rate.
Rangers, in trying to fight their own specific problem, have lost ground. Indeed, if you were at Hampden on Sunday, with bigoted chant after chant ringing out, you would think that the club had gone back ten years in their quest to solve the problem. And for many others, meanwhile, it actually means very little.
OK, so there is sectarian chanting, they say. So what? What does it matter? Just let it go, let’s just concentrate on the football.
Rangers lack the guts to truly take on their own support on the issue, and the same applies for the Scottish FA.
The docking of points really would force the bigots to stop their chanting, and the SFA has the power to do this, but it is too scared to.
Meanwhile, too many other people won’t touch this problem with a bargepole, claiming the accompanying aggro that comes with such debate simply isn’t worth it.
So Scotland just goes on living with its embarrassing bigotry problem. Ignorance, incompetence and cowardice ensure it.”
On the other hand, Kenny MacAskill said;
“This was the showpiece final everyone wanted to see, and it was a great advert for Scottish football. The players, management and fans contributed to a memorable occasion, and I urge that their positive example inside the ground is replicated outside it over the course of the evening and beyond.”
and Campbell Corrigan this;
“I think the atmosphere at the ground was excellent and the match was a great advert for our football. I hope that this atmosphere is replicated across the force and that we see a drop in the levels of alcohol-related violence that blights so many communities.”
The hypocrisy and double standards are breathtaking.
I’d point them out to your MSP;
http://www.celtictrust.net/?func=d_home_article&id=323
Huskerpunk
are you in a Zen Arcade by any chance?
Jeromek67 says:
19 November, 2011 at 10:21
‘Huskerpunk 09.55
O’neills is down by the river in Ousegate near the Grand Opera House. Its more an upmarket pub/grill place but might well show the game.’
################
That name sounds familiar.
Is this the place?
#####
‘A HIGH-PROFILE police chief has criticised a York pub for allegedly failing to control its customers during a bad-tempered live football match.
Les Gray said the atmosphere in O’Neill’s, in Low Ousegate, was “sheer poison” and fans behaved “like cavemen” during Wednesday’s Celtic v Rangers Old Firm match.
He said the pub’s licence could have been jeopardised by the behaviour of fans watching the game – but the pub’s owners hit back, saying there were no serious behaviour issues, and any trouble would not have been tolerated.
Mr Gray, chairman of the Scottish Police Federation, was visiting York and went to the bar to watch the Scottish Cup replay. Celtic won 1-0 but Rangers had three players red-carded and there was trouble between the two teams’ coaching staffs.
Mr Gray told The Press: “If someone walked in there for a pint – and York is a popular tourist area and one of my favourite places in the world – then they would not be pleased. There was shouting and things you should never hear in a pub.”
He said the behaviour had gone unchallenged, and the pub should look at employing security staff during such big matches.
The fans all seemed to be Celtic supporters, but said even the Celtic fans he was with “could not believe their ears”.
In an interview with Talksport radio on Thursday, Mr Gray said the trouble associated with matches between Glasgow’s top clubs cost the taxpayer tens of millions of pounds a year.
He said: “I was in a pub in York and I will never watch an Old Firm game in a pub again. It was madness and mayhem. The atmosphere was incredible and I don’t mean a nice incredible – it was sheer poison.”
He said that when Celtic manager Neil Lennon and Rangers assistant Ally McCoist clashed at full time, he “thought the roof was going to come off”.
“There were people jumping about like cavemen, ranting and raving with their eyes bulging and their fists waving.”
A spokesman for O’Neill’s said they had received no contact from the local authorities and no concerns from other customers.
The pub had not been especially busy, with about 100 people watching the game, and they were satisfied with staff training.
He said: “We wish to be very clear that whilst many of our customers were passionate about the match there were no serious issues concerning customer behaviour.”
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/8891913.Police_chief_criticises_customers_of_pub_during_live_football_match/
Plod, eh!
What are they like?
Cheers Jeromek,
I’ll check them out in plenty of time just in case. Wife pointed out hungate yesterday. Replied it was bad enough the vikings came to rape and pillage but I pity the city if the huns were ever here for a ‘friendly’.
Cmon the famous Glasgow Celtic!!!!
Ernie L- That was quite a funny piece by Les Gray, he has clearly had a sheltered life!
No Barrach but here’s hoping for a New Day Rising.
ernie lynch
“If someone walked in there for a pint – and York is a popular tourist area and one of my favourite places in the world – then they would not be pleased. There was shouting and things you should never hear in a pub.”
Better not let Les Gray near an Orange Walk then.
Does those stats include the Lennon attacks?. Should read abt 9.3 on the richter scale me thinks if it does!!
Is it too early for team news? Do we have a defence today?
goldstar10 says:
19 November, 2011 at 10:32
‘Ernie L- That was quite a funny piece by Les Gray, he has clearly had a sheltered life!’
It’s his members who claim that they are most likely to be the victims of religious abuse.
I think it’s worth remembering that they might have their own agenda.
Good Morning to the Celtic Family from a sunny Central Scotland. Well today will be a very tough game for us we allways find it hard going at Inverness and that coupled with our injury list ensures that we will do well to lift all 3 points.However,the team must know before they take the feild that they are drinking at the last chance saloon as far as the League title is concerned.We must play this game at a very high tempo and play the game like a cup tie and dont let ICT have a minutes peace. Come on you Bhoys in Green.H.H.
huskerpunk
absolutely, while Everything Falls Apart down Govan way
jude2005 is Neil Lennon \o/ says:
19 November, 2011 at 10:38
Does those stats include the Lennon attacks?. Should read abt 9.3 on the richter scale me thinks if it does!!
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Fifteen good folk on an Edinburgh jury decided that Neil was not the subject of a sectarian attack so no that won’t feature on the stats.
Barrach Obampot says:
19 November, 2011 at 10:37
The Ouse Bridge was a holiday haunt of mine many moons ago. Had markers on the wall of all the flood levels.
A dive as I remember but then that’s why I drank there.
Mr Gray should stand outside the Louden and the Bristol pubs on Duke st where the knuckle draggers pelt the Celtic buses with bottles and bricks every home game.
I would take a bit of convincing that it’s the pitches at Lennoxtown that are causing the injuries.
When you look at the injury list a lot of the players missing were injured during games. A few of the others are constantly injured and probably can’t be used as examples.
For that arguement to work you would also have to show that the injury problems go back to when the place was opened. I don’t recall a similar amount of injuries in previous seasons although I stand to be corrected on this.
A while ago someone pointed out that in previous seasons Celtic had a top fitness coach employed but he seemed to leave around the time of WGS leaving. Maybe that could be a factor. Just plain old bad luck probably comes into it as well.
Live updates article will be up at noon, could someone leave a note here?
Thanks.
Mon the troops in hoops don’t give them the satisfaction today.
errr Big Nan, where’s the Ouse Bridge?
Barrach Obampot says:
19 November, 2011 at 10:47
The Ouse Bridge was a pub just below the Ouse bridge in York. The pub was accessed by steps down off the bridge pavement.
Big Nan
Ta for that. Thought it was reported attacks didnt know it had to go to trial. The world saw that attack but 15 sleezebags didnt!! Hope their trams come off the rails and lands in the Princess street gardens.
gourockbhoy says:
19 November, 2011 at 09:34
My daughter is running in Renfrewshire Cross Country Championships today at noon. Can anyone suggest a pub nearby to Rouken Glen to watch the second half ?
………….
Good luck to you’re daughter in the championships.
V
Jude
Karma is coming to that jury in the name of Romanov.
thanks Big Nan, if I’m ever down that way I’ll check it out as it sounds great! btw got a reply from my MSP, who’s response to me pointing out, with examples, that the current legislation is sufficient, is let’s not dwell on the past (which I find ironic as the establishment are trying to protect a mindset stuck in the seventeenth century) and let’s see who we can tackle this in the future…
There is also Scruffy Murphys in York it would be worth checking out to see if they show the game. Glasgows Green and White. H.H.
My son told me 3 hours for the mini bus to reach inversneckie from Glasgow impress
I expect the driver will be sweating for the next couple of weeks waiting for the tickets
Anyway have removed the wolfetones from my iPod and replaced them with Daniel O’Donnell
Wonder if Quins will let me chant I’ll take you home again Kathleen during the game saying that someone may be offended that I am taking their wife home
So it might be classified as illicit
Better head as the ferry’s coming in.
Mon the Hoops!
So finally Neil has grasped the Lennoxtown nettle – to get it analysed.
I for one am delighted they’ve switched training to Barrowfield – they should never have left there. Aside from the abandoned uranium mine, buried Rangers tops, and that eerie sense of being watched (viewfaethewindae’s net curtains), the players should always be somehow connected to the place and people where Celtic originates from.
The last three seasons of hun domination have coincided with the first three full terms of this so called ‘state of the art’ training Valhalla, with its over-pampering jacuzzi rooms and ice baths (I ask you), far away from the ordinary folk who love the club so passionately. It’s time these overpaid demigods wound down the tinted windows of their out-sized cars, and woke up to who and what they are playing for.
Now if you’ll forgive me I have some socks to iron.
Ah is the football back,well now shure isnt that great.
Hopefully all these policemen with selective hearing will enjoy the games they attend.
Oh you know the types I mean.Over a hundred years of dignified deafness at one ground and extreme alertness recently at another.
One Scotland many cultures
Barrach Obampot says:
19 November, 2011 at 10:56
Yes I am on to my MSP too about reconstituting the data before any new law is passed. Labour are hot on this but they weren’t so hot on it when in power. Opportunity for them to embarrass the SNP I think.
On a seperate matter if anyone is interested I got this reply to my objection to generic response from BBC:
“Thank you for your email of 10 November 2011. I note your concerns regarding the consolidated appeal.
However it is within the Trustee’s remit to decide to consolidate an appeal if a large number of complainants appeal against a decision of the BBC Executive. Paragraph 5.3(e) of the Complaints Framework provides that: “If a large number of complainants appeal against a specific decision by the BBC’s Executive, the Trust may compile a summary of the range of issues raised by the complaints. The appeals will then be considered together across the full range of issues identified”. The consolidation of appeals allows for the points raised by numerous complainants to be considered efficiently and expeditiously.
The Editorial Standards Committee (ESC) considered whether to consolidate the Sportscene appeal at its meeting on 2 November 2011. It considered challenges to consolidate the appeal made by some of the complainants, and decided that it is appropriate that the appeal is consolidated. The Trustees are the final arbiter on this matter and their decision is final.
I note your concern that Fran O’Brien’s letter of 9 November 2011 omits points in your appeal. On 10 November 2011 I sent you the Background and Considerations note, which contains a summary of the consolidated appeal and points raised by complainants. If you have any comments on the factual accuracy and completeness of this note, please ensure you reply to us by us no later than 3pm on Thursday 24 November 2011.
Yours sincerely
Lucy Tristram.
BBC Trust Unit”
………………………………………………………………………………
The BBC are at it and I don’t accept this. They may have the right to consolidate if there are 10,000 complaining about a single issue but in this case there are only 27 who (and I know this from this and other sites) all have their own take on what is objectionable about the farce. My particular grievance was about the editorial responsibility or lack of in reporting criminal acts and that is not dealt with in the consolidated response.
Keep at them I say.
The bastards.
Come on the Celtic,
Sammi is world class
Paddy is better than Ki
Ledley is better than brown