All it took was one man, Eddie Smith, who joined the referees strike a year ago as their body became embroiled in allegations of lying, bullying and sectarianism, to make it his business to report Celtic fans to Uefa and the SPL, and the support are besieged on two fronts.
After decades of the police turning a deaf ear to illegal and offensive chanting elsewhere this might appear opportunistic, but Smith’s motivations are irrelevant. We have endured ‘the songs debate’ here for years, the only thing universally agreed upon is that as long as a single Celtic fan sings political songs at a game, this day would come.
I sincerely doubt that Celtic fans sing anything illegal, which perhaps explains why the police encourage observers to ‘police’ the stands, but no one denies many people, including a number of Celtic fans, find such singing offensive. There is, therefore, scope to mount an attempt to discipline the club, and an easy route to inflict reputational damage on each and every Celtic supporter.
The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.
Don’t take the notion that attempts to prosecute are likely to fail as legal advice. In my experience, lawyers become a lot less certain once proceedings are underway.
On a separate note, I was pleased to read Iain Blair of the SPL differentiate pro-IRA chanting from sectarian chanting. Lazy jounos everywhere take note.
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In other news:
“Brits say they will use surface-to-air missiles at the Olympics. Organisers say they’ll use javelins like everybody else.”
Courtesy of squinter on twitter.
Árd Macha
Holy Mother of God, I am just after reading that link to Joe O’Rourke and the story of the Bhoy jailed for singing Up the Ra.
I am gobsmacked.
This is totally ———– ridiculous.
Watching the police defending the property of the rich while students demonstrated last week made me remember that they are there to uphold the dominant narrative. Deviate from it and they are the ones charged with bringing you back in line or getting you jailed for refusing. They ‘uphold’ laws whether those laws are good or bad. They are supposed to be above politics but if you watch the news in the north of Ireland you’ll hear a chief constable constantly urging politicians to do this that or the next thing.
Eddie Smith for one looks like he may have a major conflict of interests which may lead to an abuse of his position. Imagine he fell out with his neighbour and then coincidentally happened to report his neighbour for driving about with a rear tail light out…… coincidence? diligence? maybe, but you know the craic.
Zero time for the Police. Zero.
STV news celtic not top be punished for “illicit chanting at the home match against Hibs
Get that young celtic fan out of prison immediatley thats court descision is an an outrage
Green Brigade statement for anyone under any illusions.
On the 29th of October, 2000 Celtic fans came together in Glasgow’s George Square to hold a very successful and peaceful rally against the SNP’s anti-Football Bill. They listened to speakers from the Fans Against Criminalisation campaign detail how the Bill criminalises football fans and the Celtic support, and how dangerous it would be to extend the law to give even more powers to the police.
After the rally, fans then proceeded on to Celtic Park. Along the way they picked up a heavily-manned police escort, complete with helicopter. Inside the stadium there was a further show of opposition against the Offensive Behaviour at Football Bill, with over 100 supporters clubs displaying banners against the Bill and in support of Fans Against Criminalisation.
While the campaign could call on the overwhelming support of Celtic fans, Strathclyde Police clearly were not on message. Fans arriving at the stadium after the protest were greeted with a warning from a senior police officer: ‘you aren’t above the law, we are the law’. During the following 90 minutes and the fortnight since, the police have tried to prove their point. Although we are used to petty harassment from police and constantly being under video surveillance at matches, we were surprised to see a far larger than usual police presence in 111 – there were reportedly 20 officers in and around the stairwell in front of our section.
The match was pretty uneventful – goalless on the park and nothing out of the ordinary off it until the last 7 or 8 minutes of the game. Then, Strathclyde Police made their move. Hand-held cameras in place, they attempted to arrest someone within the section but many fans did not take kindly to their attempts to charge into a crowd and held off police who were pushing and shoving them. The police retreated empty-handed but after the match they again tried to apprehend someone as fans were walking out of the stadium. This time their (again, unsuccessful) attempts saw a young girl barged over and a crush was only narrowly avoided. The operation was clearly pre-planned: it was the first time in two seasons that the police have entered the rows of our section, it happened on the same day as Celtic fans held a successful demonstration against the criminalisation of our support and as we later found out, preceded a police complaint to the SPL delegate about ‘offensive chanting’. It seems that Strathclyde Police are Alex Salmond’s boot boys.
A few days after the Hibs match, reps from the Celtic Supporters Association and Celtic Trust met with Ronnie Hawthorn, Celtic’s Operations Manager, to discuss their concerns about the behaviour of the police. They requested a meeting with Eddie Smith, the match commander who had directed the police’s operation. At previous meetings with Smith (ironically enough, about safety issues), Smith told both the CSA and Trust that he welcomed dialogue with fans. Not this time, however, as Smith refused to meet the fan representatives. The CSA and Trust then wrote to his boss, Chief Superintendent Wayne Mawson, asking for a meeting. Unlike Smith, Mawson said he would be happy to meet but that he would not be willing to discuss the events of the 29th. Unsurprisingly, his offer was turned down.
Since then, Eddie Smith has made official complaints to SPL and UEFA match delegates about ‘offensive chanting’ by the Celtic support at the Hibs game and the subsequent match at home to Rennes. Smith is also the Crown’s main witness in a case against two of our members, both charged with a sectarian breach of the peace for unfurling a banner containing the word ‘huns’ (the only other witness is a member of Celtic’s security staff, himself a former police officer). The SPL and UEFA investigations prompted by his complaints will be conducted while the Scottish Parliament debates and votes on the anti-Football Bill, and will no doubt be covered at length by the media. We doubt this is a coincidence. Already, the propaganda war has begun – today the back page of Glasgow’s local rag carries, under a lurid headline, comments from a publicity-hungry QC close to the Celtic board who calls on us to be banned. It seems he has joined the ranks of the legal establishment who are determined to take a boot at our group and the wider Celtic support.
At 7 am on Friday morning, a 17 year-old fan was arrested on suspicion of a sectarian breach of the peace, and for evading arrest at the Hibs match. He spent the weekend in police cells and yesterday appeared at the Sheriff Court. After the Procurator Fiscal appealed the judge’s decision to grant bail, the young fan was remanded in custody in Polmont Young Offenders Institute until December 23rd. You haven’t misread that – that’s a 17-year-old Celtic fan locked up for allegedly singing a song that Eddie Smith finds offensive.
Celtic fans, and ourselves in particular, are under attack from the government and the police, who are determined to criminalise us for their own ends. We really appreciate the support we have had already, and we will be considering our next actions carefully over the coming days and weeks. In the meantime, we call on all Celtic fans to oppose the criminalisation of our support and to unite behind the Fans Against Criminalisation campaign.
RobertTressell – Vote Yes for Strike Action on 30th November @ 17.56
Well said.
It is so hypocritical for certain critics to recoil in horror at the mere mention of the word “‘Ra” when there is so much vitriol spouted at our football grounds.
Incidentally, does that mean the anything by the Sun Ra Arkestra will also be banned in terms of the proposed legislation?
justathought CSC
By the way, gonna have to change my blog name again shortly. It appears that people have in massive majorities, voted for the Strike.
In my life time I have never felt more ‘at war’ with those who have their hands on the levers of power.
Even my ‘escape’ which is football is being destroyed by them.
Get intae thum…….. (which by the way is far more aggressive than any other song I have heard from Celtic supporters, implying as it does some form of physical aggression toward opponents……..)
Have to go.
All the best
Radio Clyde pundit (Mark Guudi) claiming a vendetta by a Grade 1 referee against Steven Craven concerning last years Referee row and that he will be outed eventually for driving him out of the game he says SFA has done themselves no favours
“A Scottish footballer has pleaded not guilty over an alleged sectarian breach of the peace.
Rangers goalkeeper Grant Adam, 20, is alleged to have conducted himself in a disorderly manner by swearing and singing sectarian slogans in Ingram Street, Glasgow,
He was released on bail and will appear back at the court on January 25 next year, ahead of a trial on February 10.” Daily Mail
Compare and contrast with reported treatment of Green Brigade youth.
As I said before, vindictive.
I suppose I had better not respond to the fascist ‘Celtic FAN’.
Suffice to say that my stomach churns at the banality.
Freddiebhoy says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:22
“Radio Clyde pundit (Mark Guudi) claiming a vendetta by a Grade 1 referee against Steven Craven concerning last years Referee row and that he will be outed eventually for driving him out of the game he says SFA has done themselves no favours”
Just a guess …… S o R ?
James Forrest.
The reason our reputation won’t be sullied is that our problem fans truly ARE a tiny minority, unlike the Huns.
If IRA songs are deemed to be against UEFA rules, self policing among the support will, I think, ensure that it is nipped in the bud by the majority.
A studium full of Ernie lynch’s belting out “up the RA” relentlessly for 90minutes would quickly see our reputation in England tarnished. Believe me.
Fortunately that won’t be allowed to happen because Celtic fans are decent and know that it’s wrong.
Lads I’ve just logged in and i have just read the green brigade statement, this is a time for all fans to stand shoulder to shoulder with this corrupt country and the corrupt establishment.
I have spoke with another member who owns a celtic site and i have asked him to speak to the celtic trust etc to start the ball rolling to get the orange marches up for debate and get them out next.
No more fkn about with this lot lads its time to act and i think they are forgetting not to mess with the mighty tic fans..
iki says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:25
S o R???????? Son of Rambo/Stewart o’Regan/Satan’s ole (goat)Riders.
…………………………………I need a bigger clue.
Lads i got a reply from my local MSP about the missing data and the new bill i will post in 5..
only 1 grade 1 ref with those initials ?
see McBride also accused Hibs of IRA stuff followed by a quick denial by Hibs; the QC seems to have utterly lost the plot.
and that boy being locked up for a month just because a policeman didnt like something he chanted (which isnt against the law) is an utter scandal.
Evening all, just caught up on the days posts a some brilliant contributions from James Forrest et al.
Have to agree with those saying the days of the Ra songs are past at Parkhead. Been saying this for a few years now and wont waste time going over my reasons for saying so. However this latest campaign against us rubs me up the wrong way. Yes, OK, lets move on to a different song list but can I be spared the Orange walks every year which offend me greatly? If not, why not? Every single song, utterance and gesture from these people offends me. Yet, they are granted the right by the Police, local government and Kiddie on parliament to strut their stuff on the Queen’s highway offending many along the way.
To me the Orange Order and their ilk are far more offensive than a few IRA chants at a football match yet no mention of curbing them. Mmmm….
As an aside. Was in the company of a couple of Police officers two weeks ago who were attending the Rangers v Liverpool match. They said they had 2 bodies for singing sectarian songs and called the match commander to see what he wanted done. They were told by this senior officer to leave it. They were’nt arresting anyone for singing or chanting that night. The cops were surprised themselves…….
celtic to escape punishment STV
Celtic are not likely to face punishment as a result of a Scottish Premier League investigation into offensive singing during their recent match against Hibernian, STV has learned.
SPL operations director Iain Blair confirmed on Monday that he was gathering evidence following a report from Strathclyde Police alleging pro-IRA singing by some of the home club’s fans at Parkhead.
Blair said that the match delegate, Frank Coulston, had been informed by senior police officer Eddie Smith but that more information had yet to be reviewed.
“Eddie has mentioned that there was pro-IRA chanting but we need to find out more about when it happened and what exactly went on,” Blair said.
“We also have to establish that Celtic, as I am sure they will have, co-operated fully with the police in the aftermath of this event.”
STV understands that consideration of these factors, which relate to steps taken by Celtic to try to prevent offensive singing, means it is unlikely that further action taken when the investigation is concluded.
While no specific charge has been stated as being considered, the SPL Rules and Regulations has a section on unacceptable conduct, which details breaches of the rules.
The section (H7.4.3) states: “Disorderly conduct includes (i) conduct which stirs up or sustains or is likely or designed to stir up or sustain, hatred or ill will against or towards a group of persons based on their membership or presumed membership of a group defined by reference to a category mentioned in Rule H7.4.5 or against an individual who is or is presumed to be a member of such group; (ii) using threatening, abusive or insulting words or conduct; or (iii) displaying any writing or other thing which is threatening, abusive or insulting.”
However, the regulations also stipulate what is expected of a club and Celtic are likely to have met the conditions stated.
Rule H7.5 states: “The Home Club in any Official Match must ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, (i) good order and security; (ii) that policies and procedures have been adopted and are implemented to prevent incidents of Unacceptable Conduct; and (iii) that any incidents of Unacceptable Conduct are effectively dealt with, all at its Stadium on the occasion of an Official Match.”
STV has also learned that the specific songs in question may not be detailed in the match delegate’s report. While some song or chants may be deemed to be in breach of the rules, reports are more likely to include general reference to “pro-IRA songs” or similar.
Celtic officials have publicly condemned offensive singing, with chief executive Peter Lawwell saying at the recent AGM that: “Chants glorifying the Provisional IRA are totally unacceptable.
“One, it is wrong, and it is an embarrassment to the club and embarrassment to the majority of supporters. We were inundated by complaints from our own fans after the game at Tynecastle.
“We have dealt with it at Celtic Park and we will do all we can to make sure it doesn’t happen home or away.
“We don’t want it, we don’t need it. We have the best supporters in the world and hold that reputation dear.”
In a separate case, Celtic have been informed by UEFA that a hearing will take place in early December to consider similar reports regarding a Europa League match against Rennes. While the European body begins disciplinary proceedings based on their delegates report, the SPL considers other factors before bringing any charge.
good evening cqn peter on RC watching last 5 celtic games on TV has heard Rebel songs etc he wants action,Mark Guidi.and even the Motherwell supporter having a go at him.the guy is a plonker,the frightning thing is there is a lot of them out there H H
hen1rik says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:2
Do you have a link to the statement?
There are people on here who should be ashamed of themselves.
Instead of finger pointing and saying you shouldn’t sing this or that and falling into a not very subtle trap…
We should be marching to Polmot Young Offenders Institute and camping out and staying there until this innocent 17 YEAR OLD YOUTH is released. This is an outrage!! COME TOGETHER FFS!!!
My dear,dear,dear,friend..Pat @ 18.05
No sweat,kiddo… No Sweat..
Look..
Wan of the Reasons..that Celtic’s Movers and Shakers are Annoyed at the
G.B. is that the G.B. are.. well…
ANNOYED AT THEM!
Why?
Tottie Why… Ah soitenly Dinnae Know!
But,THAT is Why the G.B. and the Present Celtic Administration are at..well.. No quite
at Logger Heids.. but soitenly hiv .. shall we say..
Baith Parties ,in this Tale.. Dae share Some “DIFFERENCES”
And this Situation..is No a Healthy Wan..
Fur..
It says righty there… in the wee Green Book.. that Ah goat fae Ma
Dear Uncle Lou… Page 433
“A CELTIC SUPPORTER SHOULD ALWAYS Be No Have Any ‘DIFFERENCES”
Wi’ a CELTIC ADMINISTRATION”
and..Like Ah hiv said..
The Green Brigade and the Present Celtic Administration dae hiv their…”DIFFERENCES”…and they ur the very woist type..
Fur they ur…”ENTRENCHED”
and.. that is No Healthy…( YE jist said That.. Before!..ed)( Ah KNOW THAT..
dae ye think Ah am stoopid?)
So there ye hiv it..
The G.B. and the Celtic Admin.. are “IN….the… OUTS”
And that is No Healthy~
Right?
Right.
Kojo.
yer pal..who likes ye aloater… and Ah just Luv yerName..
Page.. 35..
Thanks for contacting me about this important issue. I understand that the data retention policy of the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service is for police reports into concluded summary cases to only be kept for a period of two years. This raises serious questions about the SNP Government’s pre-election pledge to publish this data and whether they have the full picture to proceed with this legislation. I know a number of colleagues who have written to the Cabinet Secretary asking for full disclosure of the issues you raise and I would expect him to make a full statement to parliament in the coming weeks to answer these. I would be happy to keep you updated with this. I hope this is helpful Duncan McNeil MSP
I am opposed to the bill and will not be able to give it my support unless steps are taken to address the very real fears of football fans, who believe they are being wrongly targeted by this. I believe the Scottish Government should think again and work with football fans to bring forward a strategy that will work towards our shared ambition of ridding sectarianism from Scottish football. I hope this is helpful. Duncan
The Honest Cover Up:
I agree, those fans who do want to sing these songs at the game are a minority, but as has already been pointed out, the arrest of a young Celtic fan and the treatment meted out to him in court and the arrest of a Rangers goalie and his subsequent treatment reveals the motives of all concerned.
The news that the SPL are “unlikely to punish” us is as unsurprising as it is infuriating. News of the investigation was leaked to smear us in light of the UEFA charge, and to cause us more problems in that case, but I never believed the SPL were any more likely to put together a “song list” than the Scottish Executive wants to. These people know full well they are on shaky ground and won’t do anything to push this to the next level.
The intent here is to smear us, to intimidate us, to push us only so far … but no further.
I see court cases in the future. Lots of them. And lots of civil claims. Our opponents are not only blinded by hate, they are yellow from earhole to @@@@hole.
bunburybhoy says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:39
There are people on here who should be ashamed of themselves.
Instead of finger pointing and saying you shouldn’t sing this or that and falling into a not very subtle trap…
We should be marching to Polmot Young Offenders Institute and camping out and staying there until this innocent 17 YEAR OLD YOUTH is released. This is an outrage!! COME TOGETHER FFS!!!
I’m up for it m8….
Voguepunter ……. is this big enough?
Feb 6 2011 Mark Guidi, Sunday Mail
One member of the Glasgow committee immediately resigned as he was against Craven being expelled.
And he’s not the only one who is unhappy over how the case was handled.
MailSport understands senior figures at the SFA are also uncomfortable with the decision to boot out Craven and are set to launch their own investigation into how it was handled.
SPL ref Stevie O’Reilly is a committee member of the Glasgow Association and was in favour of Craven being dismissed.
But questions have been raised about O’Reilly’s conduct during the investigation and that could lead to his own position coming under review.
Eddie Smith should hang his head in shame. a 17 year old boy remanded in custody for 7 weeks because he thought it was offensive chanting.
If donations are required to get this laddie out of there please post details here.
The SNP can go and get stuffed.
KTF
iki says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:25
Thank you kindly.Is it the O’Reilly guy? :O)
Green Brigade statement here: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/e6ugh6
1 hour ago
Regarding the lad being remanded. It may well have been due to other pending or previous convictions. Doubt he was remanded just for this. Other factors can also result in remand.
Sorry to interrupt with some football news
joe16led Joe ledley
1st day back in training today will be fit for game on saturday #happydays
Ok back to Question time
To repeat what I said earlier but to ask a question also.
Now we find that Mr Smith has similarly provoked an SPL investigation. So after numerous years of ignoring anti – catholic bile suddenly the Scottish Authorities have found a conscience. Lord that makes me angry and very very glad that I left all those years ago.
The bottom line however is that this is a fight that cannot be won and the sooner those who perpetuate the IRA chants realise it the better it will be for Celtic. They simply don’t have public support for their point of view even amongst their own people so I would urge them to fully embrace the many positive aspects of their Irish Identity and by all means volubly overwhelm the bigots in Scotland with songs and chants they cannot attack. If their goal is to embrace Irish identity and annoy those who have turned a blind eye to bigotry for so many years they can do that quite well without even the slightest mention of the IRA.
James Forrest and others believe this is a conspiracy to divide us. They don’t need to divide what is already divided and if it is we have it in our power to unite as a much stronger force if some amongst us have the courage to sacrifice a little for the longer term benefit of the club its support and its perception globally. Continued references to the RA etc simply makes their job so much easier.
A question simply asked of anyone who does sing of the IRA and puts in add ons to songs otherwise acceptable if they’d be good enough to answer.
As you know the consequences why do you do it?
The question is sincerely asked and I’d appreciate a considered answer. I know why in my youth I sang similar and why I stopped doing so. I’d like to understand – whether I agree or not.
hen1rik @ 18:42
Due to being on the other side of the planet ( thank God ) …… unable to attend.
But seriously when you are on the outside looking in this whole sorry saga gets more surreal every day.
So glad I got out…
P8ddy
If I may add….
If you don’t stand for something you will fall for anything.
Malcolm X
BrotherAidanIwisnaelate says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:46
If the young lad had mugged an old lady or stabbed someone,
he would be out walking the streets,so he either murdered sumdy
whilst singing IRA songs or the cops have an agenda.
I’ll go for the latter.
Whoever just posted about donations for the boy in jail…
post details once it is set up…
This cannot stand
I know a guy who has been charged with murder and is out on bail.