All it took was one man, Eddie Smith, who joined the referees strike a year ago as their body became embroiled in allegations of lying, bullying and sectarianism, to make it his business to report Celtic fans to Uefa and the SPL, and the support are besieged on two fronts.
After decades of the police turning a deaf ear to illegal and offensive chanting elsewhere this might appear opportunistic, but Smith’s motivations are irrelevant. We have endured ‘the songs debate’ here for years, the only thing universally agreed upon is that as long as a single Celtic fan sings political songs at a game, this day would come.
I sincerely doubt that Celtic fans sing anything illegal, which perhaps explains why the police encourage observers to ‘police’ the stands, but no one denies many people, including a number of Celtic fans, find such singing offensive. There is, therefore, scope to mount an attempt to discipline the club, and an easy route to inflict reputational damage on each and every Celtic supporter.
The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.
Don’t take the notion that attempts to prosecute are likely to fail as legal advice. In my experience, lawyers become a lot less certain once proceedings are underway.
On a separate note, I was pleased to read Iain Blair of the SPL differentiate pro-IRA chanting from sectarian chanting. Lazy jounos everywhere take note.
1,282 Comments- Pages:
- «
- 1
- ...
- 9
- 10
- 11
- 12
- 13
- 14
- 15
- ...
- 29
- »
BBC Scotland suggesting that we have been accused now of sectarian chanting, although Blair at the SPL made it clear there is a distinction between sectarian and pro-IRA chanting (mind you, he did say that both had to be condemned, although only the former is illegal, as far as I am aware: legal minefield already.).
bunburybhoy says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:49
hen1rik @ 18:42
Due to being on the other side of the planet ( thank God ) …… unable to attend.
But seriously when you are on the outside looking in this whole sorry saga gets more surreal every day.
So glad I got out…
True m8 but the celtic support are not to be messed with and if they dare try they will be the worst losers that’s a promise.
I’m glad to see more posters mentioning the orange marches. What’s going to be done about these hugely offensive sectarian events which are a constant in Scotland?
A few chants at a football ground are absolutely nothing in comparison. Let’s keep it real and keep it highlighted.
Squeeze the orange.
Shortbread in full panto mode as they concoct a script which shoehorns and conjoins, Illicit, Sectarian and Offensive into the one sentence………
Shameful.
Some excellent posts today.
Seems to me that Scotland is becoming an increasingly sinister little country, where the police arrest people for saying things which, whilst not illegal, are “offensive”, and where rising anti-Catholic disdain is tolerated in politicians and in the courts.
One particularly appalling development has been the “Nevin-isation” of Paul McBride, who has gone from being a voice of sanity when defending Neil Lennon, to being the most awful kind of publicity wh***.
He strikes me as a man on the make. I don’t think it will be too long before we see him joining the SNP (his third party in about four years), and being elevated to some cushy legal position.
Meantime, our fans are demonised, our club’s proud reputation is trashed, and the Rangers – by some distance the most bigoted club in Europe – are exempt from public criticism and sanction.
What a mess…
If we do have a collection to hire a good lawyer for the GB youth. I suggest Paul McBride.
James Forrest is Lennon says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:42
I heard indirectly from a lawyer that there have already been several court cases. Some for charges such as (I kid you not) waving a scarf aggressively etc. They charges have, of course, been dropped once a lawyer is contacted.
There is clearly a stitch up job going on and the Green Brigade have been targeted to “even things up”.
I just wish to God they would drop the “Ooh ahh..” line and then there would be no ammo for the press to use against us. I read someone here say that the “up the RA” chant was coming not from the Green Brigade but from others in 111. Having been to every home game this year I seriously doubt it. I wish the Green Brigade would put out a statement that they condemn these chants and will not sing them and are interested only in backing Celtic. Then we can all get behind them and win this war together.
iki says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:57
‘If we do have a collection to hire a good lawyer for the GB youth. I suggest Paul McBride’
In all seriousness he’d be better off with Findlay, who, whatever else he may be is at heart a libertarian.
Dougie Vipond on shortbread TV sportsnews talking about the Hibs Rennes game with the Celtic supporters sectarian singing!!!!
They seem to be able to make up their own version .
ernie lynch says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:52
I know a guy who has been charged with murder and is out on bail.
________________________________________________
The crucial point ,no illicit singing.
What we are seeing here is a backlash for last season. (“Dougie Dougie”, Dallasgate and McBride’s success against the SFA.) We are being “put back in our place.”
For feck sake the establishment are changing laws to get at us. They’ve intentionally destroyed data that proved against their argument.
They’ve now thrown a 17 year old Celtic fan into prison for alleged breach of the peace when they are letting alleged murderers and rapists walk the streets on bail.
“Timmy” is being shown who is boss.
Feck them all.
First Georgie Thompson on SSN and now Dougie Vipond, both erring in asking their correspondent about ‘Celtic fans’ sectarian singing’. This may well be lazy journalism, but to me, it’s a little too coincidental. There is a campaign afoot, make no mistake.
Watch out for cornered rats.
BrotherAidanIwisnaelate
There are bound to be plenty on here who know a fair bit about the young fellow and I hope someone is assessing what to do next. If he’s a rogue and deserves it, fine, if he is an innocent young fan who has been done wrong, then I hope the bandwagon rolls.
Don’t you just love scotland
I can’t wait till marchin season
Paul McBride’s claim that Hibs’ fans sing IRA songs strikes me as the comment of someone who doesn’t actually understand football.
Of all the clubs he could point a finger at for offensive chanting he chooses Hibs!!!??
Off the Record
Don’t rogues get bail?
Vogue Punter and Ernie. Not disagreeing. I think there is an agenda to. But, the wee guy may have previous and also MAY have an issue with turning up at court or complying with bail conditions in the past. Not agreeing with what he was lifted for, and if true it is shocking, but we dont know what his previous conduct has been and this may have entered into the decision making.
Bournesouprecipe
:-) Where I come from, even murder doesn’t mean you’ll get the jail. But you get the gist of what I mean !
The repetition of the charge of “sectarian singing” needs to be challenged by the club.
This is willful misrepresentation. If there is no challenge issued, that tells me the club is happy to watch the police do their worst to the Green Brigade…
We are being told about broadcasters running with lies about the songs our supporters are singing,ie sectarian.What the hell are our directors doing about it.Lawwell get on the phone to their live broadcasts and tell them,grow a pair.Slan
Anyone would think the establishment wanted to put
the brakes on our move to England,by digging
the dirt on our team and supporters.
And here’s me thinking they wanted rid of us.
The Honest Cover-up says:
Appreciate that information mate, and shocked but not surprised. Yellow, like I said. They are engaged in a war with us that works in two ways; it seeks to demonise these guys which stops them from building a groundswelll of support in the mainstream population, who otherwise would be outraged by the treatment, and it seeks to intimidate them into accepting the charges and taking their slap on the wrist. The ancillary benefit for the authorities in this case, of course, is that it builds their “argument” for them that these acts are illegal in the first place.
It’s just scandalous, and it’s transparent.
Every single person arrested has to plead not guilty and exercise their right to a full hearing in court. Every person. And there has to be some kind of support structure put in place for helping those who are struggling in light of that decision.
Where is the Scottish Civil Rights community here? They should be screaming blue murder, but they’re not. In my long history as a left-wing political activist, I often found that liberals were the most intolerent and easily intimidated people in the business. When they face criticism they tend to forget the plight of other people, hide under the table and say “please don’t hurt me.”
The best answer to the anti Catholic wave sweeping Scotland ,is for everyone who was Baptised a Catholic,attends Mass this weekend and every weekend thereafter.
That will show the authorities the number of people, therefore votes, that they are up against.
As for the “up the RA ” question.
It would be interesting to know what the concensus of those who actually live in Ireland, North and South, is, regarding the appropriateness of it’s place at Celtic Park.
We often read the phrase on here, “do you go to the games”, well how about canvassing the views of those who lived through forty years of pain and strife in the Six.
Surely their views are more valid than those who cry into their beer from a safe bar stool in Glasgow, or once bought a copy of ” The Best Rebel Songs Ever, vol.22.
Off the Record ! says:
15 November, 2011 at 19:01
‘There are bound to be plenty on here who know a fair bit about the young fellow and I hope someone is assessing what to do next. If he’s a rogue and deserves it, fine, if he is an innocent young fan who has been done wrong, then I hope the bandwagon rolls.’
I think the relevant bit of the charge is the bit about evading arrest.
I reckon Plod will have steamed in to the crowd and the kid been too quick for them. Too many doughnuts maybe.
Smith’s ego has taken a dunt and that’s just not on. He can’t be seen to be being outsmarted by a bunch of kids.
Plod and the fiscal will have advised the court that the kid dodging out of plod’s way when they weighed into the crowd meant that there’s a danger of him absconding if granted bail.
We’re sleep walking to a police state.
It’s worrying.
Bloke –
They are Lazy enough to pick-up the story from Scotland verbatim……..it’s in scotland where the usual suspects are taking a media brief from the usual culprit…….
Sinister, orchestrated and shameful.
ItaliaBhoy
Its because our club is so weak that the lapdogs and the bbc feel free to tell lies about us.
The Honest Cover-up says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:58
Interesting point about who occupies section 111. I always assumed it was filled with the Green Brigade. My friend’s “kids” head off to get as close as possible. For all I know they are right in the middle.
Scoop guidi saying big referee story to break…
TTT
don’t know about that, our PP in in Santander and its the Xaverian Missionery Fathers this weekend…
I’ll probably go to another parish then
Evening bhoys, still hun free.
The No.13 Shorts says:
15 November, 2011 at 16:42
Suberb post.
Ooh Ah Pay your Tax…Ooh Ah Pay your Tax
Good evening fellow Celtic fans.
Its a sad sad world we live in, when all the talk is about anything but football. I dont know if anybody is remotely interested, but we have a massive must win game at Inverness this week end.
Kojo
Indeed it is not healthy, and I believe both parties will need to cut each other some slack
I love the GB but some of their songs are wrong
However, the board are choosing to focus on only the bad parts, when like I said before, there is a lot more good than bad
By the way, I don’t think you’re stupid ;)
HH
P27
Celtic heading for slow train-wreck
6
share24 All it took was one man, Eddie Smith, who joined the referees strike a year ago as their body became embroiled in allegations of lying, bullying and sectarianism, to make it his business to report Celtic fans to Uefa and the SPL, and the support are besieged on two fronts.
After decades of the police turning a deaf ear to illegal and offensive chanting elsewhere this might appear opportunistic, but Smith’s motivations are irrelevant. We have endured ‘the songs debate’ here for years, the only thing universally agreed upon is that as long as a single Celtic fan sings political songs at a game, this day would come.
I sincerely doubt that Celtic fans sing anything illegal, which perhaps explains why the police encourage observers to ‘police’ the stands, but no one denies many people, including a number of Celtic fans, find such singing offensive. There is, therefore, scope to mount an attempt to discipline the club, and an easy route to inflict reputational damage on each and every Celtic supporter.
The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.
Don’t take the notion that attempts to prosecute are likely to fail as legal advice. In my experience, lawyers become a lot less certain once proceedings are underway.
On a separate note, I was pleased to read Ian Blair of the SPL differentiate pro-IRA chanting from sectarian chanting. Lazy jounos everywhere take note.
You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
«123456789
bunburybhoy says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:39
There are people on here who should be ashamed of themselves.
Instead of finger pointing and saying you shouldn’t sing this or that and falling into a not very subtle trap…
We should be marching to Polmot Young Offenders Institute and camping out and staying there until this innocent 17 YEAR OLD YOUTH is released. This is an outrage!! COME TOGETHER FFS!!!
share
Kojo says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:40
My dear,dear,dear,friend..Pat @ 18.05
No sweat,kiddo… No Sweat..
Look..
Wan of the Reasons..that Celtic’s Movers and Shakers are Annoyed at the
G.B. is that the G.B. are.. well…
ANNOYED AT THEM!
Why?
Tottie Why… Ah soitenly Dinnae Know!
But,THAT is Why the G.B. and the Present Celtic Administration are at..well.. No quite
at Logger Heids.. but soitenly hiv .. shall we say..
Baith Parties ,in this Tale.. Dae share Some “DIFFERENCES”
And this Situation..is No a Healthy Wan..
Fur..
It says righty there… in the wee Green Book.. that Ah goat fae Ma
Dear Uncle Lou… Page 433
“A CELTIC SUPPORTER SHOULD ALWAYS Be No Have Any ‘DIFFERENCES”
Wi’ a CELTIC ADMINISTRATION”
and..Like Ah hiv said..
The Green Brigade and the Present Celtic Administration dae hiv their…”DIFFERENCES”…and they ur the very woist type..
Fur they ur…”ENTRENCHED”
and.. that is No Healthy…( YE jist said That.. Before!..ed)( Ah KNOW THAT..
dae ye think Ah am stoopid?)
So there ye hiv it..
The G.B. and the Celtic Admin.. are “IN….the… OUTS”
And that is No Healthy~
Right?
Right.
Kojo.
yer pal..who likes ye aloater… and Ah just Luv yerName..
Page.. 35..
share
hen1rik says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:41
Thanks for contacting me about this important issue. I understand that the data retention policy of the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service is for police reports into concluded summary cases to only be kept for a period of two years. This raises serious questions about the SNP Government’s pre-election pledge to publish this data and whether they have the full picture to proceed with this legislation. I know a number of colleagues who have written to the Cabinet Secretary asking for full disclosure of the issues you raise and I would expect him to make a full statement to parliament in the coming weeks to answer these. I would be happy to keep you updated with this. I hope this is helpful Duncan McNeil MSP
share
hen1rik says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:41
I am opposed to the bill and will not be able to give it my support unless steps are taken to address the very real fears of football fans, who believe they are being wrongly targeted by this. I believe the Scottish Government should think again and work with football fans to bring forward a strategy that will work towards our shared ambition of ridding sectarianism from Scottish football. I hope this is helpful. Duncan
share
James Forrest is Lennon says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:42
The Honest Cover Up:
I agree, those fans who do want to sing these songs at the game are a minority, but as has already been pointed out, the arrest of a young Celtic fan and the treatment meted out to him in court and the arrest of a Rangers goalie and his subsequent treatment reveals the motives of all concerned.
The news that the SPL are “unlikely to punish” us is as unsurprising as it is infuriating. News of the investigation was leaked to smear us in light of the UEFA charge, and to cause us more problems in that case, but I never believed the SPL were any more likely to put together a “song list” than the Scottish Executive wants to. These people know full well they are on shaky ground and won’t do anything to push this to the next level.
The intent here is to smear us, to intimidate us, to push us only so far … but no further.
I see court cases in the future. Lots of them. And lots of civil claims. Our opponents are not only blinded by hate, they are yellow from earhole to @@@@hole.
share
hen1rik says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:42
bunburybhoy says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:39
There are people on here who should be ashamed of themselves.
Instead of finger pointing and saying you shouldn’t sing this or that and falling into a not very subtle trap…
We should be marching to Polmot Young Offenders Institute and camping out and staying there until this innocent 17 YEAR OLD YOUTH is released. This is an outrage!! COME TOGETHER FFS!!!
I’m up for it m8….
share
iki says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:42
Voguepunter ……. is this big enough?
Feb 6 2011 Mark Guidi, Sunday Mail
One member of the Glasgow committee immediately resigned as he was against Craven being expelled.
And he’s not the only one who is unhappy over how the case was handled.
MailSport understands senior figures at the SFA are also uncomfortable with the decision to boot out Craven and are set to launch their own investigation into how it was handled.
SPL ref Stevie O’Reilly is a committee member of the Glasgow Association and was in favour of Craven being dismissed.
But questions have been raised about O’Reilly’s conduct during the investigation and that could lead to his own position coming under review.
share
Carrigan says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:43
Eddie Smith should hang his head in shame. a 17 year old boy remanded in custody for 7 weeks because he thought it was offensive chanting.
If donations are required to get this laddie out of there please post details here.
The SNP can go and get stuffed.
KTF
share
voguepunter says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:44
iki says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:25
Thank you kindly.Is it the O’Reilly guy? :O)
share
hen1rik says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:45
Green Brigade statement here: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/e6ugh6
1 hour ago
share
BrotherAidanIwisnaelate says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:46
Regarding the lad being remanded. It may well have been due to other pending or previous convictions. Doubt he was remanded just for this. Other factors can also result in remand.
share
notthebus says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:48
Sorry to interrupt with some football news
joe16led Joe ledley
1st day back in training today will be fit for game on saturday #happydays
Ok back to Question time
share
derbyshirebhoy says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:49
To repeat what I said earlier but to ask a question also.
Now we find that Mr Smith has similarly provoked an SPL investigation. So after numerous years of ignoring anti – catholic bile suddenly the Scottish Authorities have found a conscience. Lord that makes me angry and very very glad that I left all those years ago.
The bottom line however is that this is a fight that cannot be won and the sooner those who perpetuate the IRA chants realise it the better it will be for Celtic. They simply don’t have public support for their point of view even amongst their own people so I would urge them to fully embrace the many positive aspects of their Irish Identity and by all means volubly overwhelm the bigots in Scotland with songs and chants they cannot attack. If their goal is to embrace Irish identity and annoy those who have turned a blind eye to bigotry for so many years they can do that quite well without even the slightest mention of the IRA.
James Forrest and others believe this is a conspiracy to divide us. They don’t need to divide what is already divided and if it is we have it in our power to unite as a much stronger force if some amongst us have the courage to sacrifice a little for the longer term benefit of the club its support and its perception globally. Continued references to the RA etc simply makes their job so much easier.
A question simply asked of anyone who does sing of the IRA and puts in add ons to songs otherwise acceptable if they’d be good enough to answer.
As you know the consequences why do you do it?
The question is sincerely asked and I’d appreciate a considered answer. I know why in my youth I sang similar and why I stopped doing so. I’d like to understand – whether I agree or not.
share
bunburybhoy says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:49
hen1rik @ 18:42
Due to being on the other side of the planet ( thank God ) …… unable to attend.
But seriously when you are on the outside looking in this whole sorry saga gets more surreal every day.
So glad I got out…
share
PJBhoynyc says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:49
P8ddy
If I may add….
If you don’t stand for something you will fall for anything.
Malcolm X
share
voguepunter says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:49
BrotherAidanIwisnaelate says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:46
If the young lad had mugged an old lady or stabbed someone,
he would be out walking the streets,so he either murdered sumdy
whilst singing IRA songs or the cops have an agenda.
I’ll go for the latter.
share
bunburybhoy says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:51
Whoever just posted about donations for the boy in jail…
post details once it is set up…
This cannot stand
share
ernie lynch says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:52
I know a guy who has been charged with murder and is out on bail.
share
Parkheadcumsalford says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:53
BBC Scotland suggesting that we have been accused now of sectarian chanting, although Blair at the SPL made it clear there is a distinction between sectarian and pro-IRA chanting (mind you, he did say that both had to be condemned, although only the former is illegal, as far as I am aware: legal minefield already.).
share
hen1rik says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:53
bunburybhoy says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:49
hen1rik @ 18:42
Due to being on the other side of the planet ( thank God ) …… unable to attend.
But seriously when you are on the outside looking in this whole sorry saga gets more surreal every day.
So glad I got out…
True m8 but the celtic support are not to be messed with and if they dare try they will be the worst losers that’s a promise.
share
Headtheball says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:53
I’m glad to see more posters mentioning the orange marches. What’s going to be done about these hugely offensive sectarian events which are a constant in Scotland?
A few chants at a football ground are absolutely nothing in comparison. Let’s keep it real and keep it highlighted.
Squeeze the orange.
Exactly m8 why do many on here not push for this to be gone…
Does nobody feel that IRA songs shouldnt be sung?? Just seems to be a lot of apologists making excuses for the songs being sung.Dont get me wrong im a total hypocrite ive sung them ,been to marches ,went to see the Wolfe Tones,Shebeen..etc.But surely the time has come to can it…certainly in the ground.What happens over the city is of no concern to me ,they can sing their wee hearts out ,chanting what they want as far as im concerned.They are on as thin ice with UEFA ,we arent there yet,so lets not get to that stage and rap it now.The argument about political or sectarian is not the point.Sure they are not sectarian ,but that doesnt mean they arent offensive to some people. Talk of boycoyts dont interest me,i want to support my team,and will continue to do so ..home and away.
Headtheball says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:53
I’m glad to see more posters mentioning the orange marches. What’s going to be done about these hugely offensive sectarian events which are a constant in Scotland?
A few chants at a football ground are absolutely nothing in comparison. Let’s keep it real and keep it highlighted.
Squeeze the orange.
Exactly m8 why do many on here not push for this to be gone…
David Peter Deans says:
15 November, 2011 at 19:15
With respect,I believe recent events should concern every
single Celtic fan on the planet.
why not replace the offensive songs with hymns…………hail glorious st patrick, ave marie, faith of our fathers etc.
try banning them.
ernie lynch says:
15 November, 2011 at 18:59
hahaha – Donald Finley – however I think you may well be right – how good would it be to see him defend us. Priceless!