All it took was one man, Eddie Smith, who joined the referees strike a year ago as their body became embroiled in allegations of lying, bullying and sectarianism, to make it his business to report Celtic fans to Uefa and the SPL, and the support are besieged on two fronts.
After decades of the police turning a deaf ear to illegal and offensive chanting elsewhere this might appear opportunistic, but Smith’s motivations are irrelevant. We have endured ‘the songs debate’ here for years, the only thing universally agreed upon is that as long as a single Celtic fan sings political songs at a game, this day would come.
I sincerely doubt that Celtic fans sing anything illegal, which perhaps explains why the police encourage observers to ‘police’ the stands, but no one denies many people, including a number of Celtic fans, find such singing offensive. There is, therefore, scope to mount an attempt to discipline the club, and an easy route to inflict reputational damage on each and every Celtic supporter.
The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.
Don’t take the notion that attempts to prosecute are likely to fail as legal advice. In my experience, lawyers become a lot less certain once proceedings are underway.
On a separate note, I was pleased to read Iain Blair of the SPL differentiate pro-IRA chanting from sectarian chanting. Lazy jounos everywhere take note.
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I see ol’ Kojo has picked a friend in McBride QC. Good combo, but I wouldn’t want either beside me in the trenches. Joko has never appeared at a Celtic convention in Las Vegas. Why is that? Paul McBride is no friend of Celtic, providing ammunition for the rest of the souptakers. Bhontybhoy is a splitter–a diversion on here to set people against each other. Greenjedi—a Scottish Republican? An oxymoron given the SNP makeup. It takes more than Nationalism to make a Republican. The GB need to be sleekit, as I posted on here earlier. Change the words and insult the hell out of them. Use the words of the “Man From The Daily Mail” and change them. “Oh Ah Samaras” will do me. Unlike some knee-jerkers I’ll give the Celtic board time. I’m not too hopeful mind you. Oh, and Bontybhoy if your lurking, the quizmaster in the Wallace in Stirling is called Ewan. Has an indie record shop in town and knows his stuff. If you are in there ask them about me. Meanwhile I’m changing their nonclemature to Orc instead of Hun. I’ve been lifted by the polis and Brits enough in my lifetime. I wouldn’t want to invite the Scottish plod to do the same thing.
Can any of the posters or Paul McBride who have chosen to jump on the blame the GB band wagon provide evidence that the illicit singing eminated from section 111?
I haven’t seen any but a lot of people seem to be quick to condemn the section as the source of all celtics currernt travails.
I was in the section at the Rennes game and I am struggling to remember any reference to the RA at this game.
I will stress that I am not a member of the GB or an apologist for them but to convict them before any evidence has been forthcoming is just wrong. I don’t believe I am the only one on this site who was in that section that night who has stated they heard no reference to the RA but a lot of posters who were probably on their laptops at that time seem to have no doubt that the alleged singing actually happened, not only that but it came from section 111.
In my opinion Celtic fans don’t openly attack other Celtic fans in the hun friendly media, for this reason I refuse to believe Paul McBride is a supporter of our club, in fact after last night I could think of a few choice names for him.
TAL
Lebanon 2 South Korea 1
Cha played the full 90mins
Joe Filippis Haircut says:
15 November, 2011 at 17:19
Brother Walfrid invited TD Sullivan to Celtic Park to sing his song commemorating the Manchester Martyrs who have been convicted of the murder of a British policeman.
It’s for you to reconcile that fact with your insistence that Celtic fans should amend their behaviour to suit your views.
DIVITBHOY 1733
I was sat three rows to the right of them.
Nothing untoward was sung.
I cannot believe people on here will believe slander before they believe genuine on-the-spot witnesses.
Might not fit their agenda,perhaps?
Following Serenity and Googybhoy’s lead, I’m posting in support of unity.
We don’t have to agree about everything all of the time, but we are under pressure and we have to stand together.
Let there be no posts insulting fellow Celtic people. If we must disagree with one another, let it be in polite language.
Raymac – Re: this souptakers stuff.
What kind of soup did they take?
Because if it was Baxters Favourites Oxtail Soup, that would be quite tempting. Especially with slices of a freshly made baguette from the Waitrose bakery, and some Somerset brie. (thumbsup)
Ernie.
Keep up the good fight,I’ve got to head for my cot.
Nightshift,honest.
More power to your index fingers,or is it only me that types with them?
BontyBhoy says:
15 November, 2011 at 17:19
Your posts would be slightly less boring if you could occasionally use the word cretin instead of moron.
The endless repetition grates.
It seems this 17 year old celtic fan has had his human rights abused .
This is really serious and should be challenged.
Ernie Lynch thanks for your answer I dont want anyone to change there songs to suit my point of view if that were the case I be a pretty selfish fella.Times have changed and many folk find pro IRA songs offensive I myself have no problem with them so if you and your friends want to sing them fine have a party and do it in your house then you will offend no one.Now if we accept we are a Scottish Football Club and not an Irish Political Organisation and the minority of fans who sing IRA songs cease from doing it we will have achieved the moral high ground and can put our full weight behind stopping others from singing there sectarian songs. H.H.
The Honest Cover-up says:
And, again, you miss the point. People might find those songs distasteful, some might find them offensive, but they are NOT ILLEGAL and moves to criminalise people who sing them should be resisted by every right thinking person.
Stop using the “person in Manchester” analogy. I once had a very vocal debate in that city with someone who wanted me to “defend” the mainland campaign, and I’m not about to rehash the discussion, because it is irrelevent here. There are people in this city, who have never strayed far from their living rooms and known no more about the world than what they see on TV who would claim to be similarly offended by the chant, and I won’t debate with them either.
You know what? I am sorry if I come across as intimidating. I am sorry that using logic to defend my position seems unfair to those who use raw emotion only to defend theirs, but we live in a world where freedom of expression is supposed to be valued, and we recently had a very big, very public display of “gratitude” to those who died fighting for that freedom, amongst others.
I will not relinquish that freedom for anyone, in any circumstances. This is what puts this blog at the absolute pinnacle of all other Celtic forums, that here the ability to debate rationally is valued, that you need to be sure footed to defend your positions and that you tread carefully if you can’t.
Estadio
Just read your story from earlier on. I had a tear in my eye by the end.
Anyway off to see my youngest make the Sacrament of Confirmation. One day that too may be illegal in this place.
HT who cannae wait for Inverness on Sat…
Raymac.. @ 17.32.
Pal..
Ah gotta correct yer wrang Info. .regarding.. Kojo’s “APPEARANCE/APPEARANCES at
Celtic Supporters Las Vegas Conventions..
Pal..
Let me state here and noo.. Categorically..,
That
I, Kojo.. Have Appeared at EVERY CELTIC SUPPORTERS CONVENTION.. so far.. that hiz Taken Place in LAS VEGAS!
Ah Have conversed and Joined in Countless///”DISCUSSIN’ And CUSSIN'” and Enjoyable Meetings, with Celtic Fans,at these Converntions..
Ah wiz Incognito.. of course,and Ah never divulged My TrueIdentiy..
So..
Whit is the Maitter wi that…?
If Ah deign NOT to divulge. My True Identity..and Demur to meet.. any C.Q, member who requests a Personal Meeting,.. at a Las Vegas Celtic Supporters Convention..
Well..
Ah hiv My Ain.. reasons tae Demur.
Pal.. ye are spoutin a loata Untrue stuff..aboot me..
so..
Ah ask ye,kindly..
‘
WULL YE STOAP DAEIN’ IT?
http://youtu.be/N202Kk1ifhI
HamiltonTim
I hope the Confirmation goes well. It’s my middle child’s turn in a fortnight.
Veni Creator Spiritus.
Kayal 33
Just read your post / GB statement.
Six weeks on remand for BOP seems vindictive to me.
I posted earlier that I had a possible reason why Eddie Smith had become such a zealot.
Your post has added to my suspicions.
Bamboo,
“It seems this 17 year old celtic fan has had his human rights abused .
This is really serious and should be challenged.”
according to the boar and the appeasing bum baring section in here, the boy brought it on himself and deserves everything he gets, just read them.
I’m not missing the point. I agree that the songs should not be criminalised but I also believe the fans should stop singing them. It’s possible to be against the new bill and disapprove of IRA songs at the sane time.
If you had stopped to read my earlier posts you would have realised that.
Instead you jumped in after a question I posed to ernielynch and said I was despicable for raising the point.
The Manchester analogy is important. We’ve played there several times in the last few years and I want to see Celtic play there again. I don’t want to be embarrassed there by people singing songs which are at least 15 years out of date.
I never ever thought I’d see myself saying this , but I have finally wakened and smelled the coffee as they say.
I am not domiciled in Scotland, am fiercely a Scottish patriot , but I hardly ever now get to games sadly.
For the first time in my life I see Scotland for what it really is and it sickens me to the extreme I assure you. Narrow minded, bigotted, sneaky and wrapped up in hatred for all that is not Protestant etc etc etc. Don’t kid anybody that it’s all bagpipes and a warm welcome to yin and a’. Bullshit.
Makes me sick and totally embarrassed to be Scottish, I really mean that.
Come on CELTIC, GTF out of that shit-hole before they bring you down.
Let them stew in their bile and masonics and stupid handshakes, it really is such a load of shit
KINGLuBO
To James forrest
I have kind of been avoiding this issue about songs except for a few short thoughts but the word ‘illicit’ really is a strange one on me.
Now, I am on record as saying that I think we should stop mentioning the IRA at the fitba. Simples. Including the verse in the BOTOB that refers to joining the IRA. However, I have taken my son, who is now 10 years old, to Celtic games from about the age of 7. And it occurred to me that I have never heard any song that has had me covering his ears or saying ‘don’t repeat that’. In fact I find most people sitting near by when the wee man or other youngsters are about tend to temper the language and so on (I am ashamed to admit I have had to check myself when he has been there with me for my own poor language!)
So what’s my point? Well these ‘illicit songs/ chants’ (presumably Ooh ah up the Ra??), well, they might annoy people, they might not be totally appropriate and for reasons mentioned a million times before, they are best kept under wraps, but I would far rather my weans heard the Boys of the Old Brigade than, and in no particular order:
‘Who sh@%^&d all the boys’
‘F(*K you Rangers/ Celtic we’re gonna win the league’
‘If you hate the F(*&(*G Celtic/Rangers/Jambos/Hibees clap your hands’
and lets consider rugby here for a minute:
‘You can stick yer f~@:?>< chariots up yer hole' (Explain that to your child!)
And any other number of profane songs which make our grounds less than appropriate for youngsters.
That said, I'm no shrinking violet and my children have heard me use the odd swear word. It's life. But the point is, the bams at UEFA, the SFA and in the Polis need to get a sense of perspective.
Looking forward to the political booing of the English National Anthem being met with the Police commander touting on the tartan army if the English ever venture to Hampden again.
It is an absolute joke but they have made the rules and now they are bending and twisting them to suit their own agenda.
So best to meet that kind of thing by being smarter than them (hardly difficult!) – Could we spread the word that the Celtic Symphony now ends with Ooh Ahh Up the Celts and give it laldy while they salivate that we are walking in to the trap and we deliver them the alternative ending and a massive GIRUY to those who would do us down.
We can beat them pretty easily on this. We just need to show the world what genuine self policing by football supporters is.
JF,
“but we live in a world where freedom of expression is supposed to be valued”
No on this site nor at Celtic park.
Neveratim
The songs get sung these days for one simple reason,its because your fellow huns started singing banned songs without sanction in Scotland,none of our songs were ever deemed illegal so the songs have been sung as a protest to highlight the double standards in Scottish football/society,your hun support don’t like the fact that their favourite ditties are illegal so they have called upon their fellow huns in high places to even up the score.
That is why certain songs are sung by some of the Celtic support.
think i’ll have to change the name completely, signed an important document today as serge!!!
Oh,The Songs,The Songs !
Just what would ‘Ole Bro.Walfrid say?
“Well folks,I’m quite keen on that up-and-coming pop duo,Gilbert and Sullivan.”
” Their fine tunes fae Ruddigore,The Mikado,and Pirates of Penzance would go down a treat at Celtic Park.Gie it laldy!”.
ChannelingBroWalfridCSC
The Honest Cover Up:
Yeah I got it mate. Lol.
Again, as I said to Mort earlier, you’ve actually articulated something I agree with. We’re NOT on different sides of this.
I am dismayed that so many of our fans are “embarrased” by the behaviour of their fellow supporters, especially at a time when said supporters are being arrested. Jesus, I wasn’t aware this had turned into North Korea overnight …
Mate, the very fact we have been to Manchester so often, and at times when the song-book was far more loaded than it is today, and at a time when the Armed Struggle was still very much underway, highlights that mostly people down there do not CARE what we sing. Many of them certainly understand the context as to where our club comes from, what its background us and from where many of its supporters Hail Hail. European cities, likewise, know we are one of the best behaved, most generous supports in the world, and those who do understand what we are singing about do not care.
I repeat what I said earlier; our global reputation cannot be sullied, because we are no different than we were when we won FIFA and UEFA awards, no different than we were when we travelled in our thousands to those English cities where we are endlessly welcome. The only place where our fans are hated is right here in Scotland, right here at home, where our enemies do not NEED excuses … hate comes naturally to them.
gesbhoy
There are so many contradictions in that email to your mate I wouldnt be surprised if his name is Media House.
Seriously. Any chance you can post his reply.
MWD
Sorry if it has been posted previously, this sums up my feelings exactly and a lot on here should take heed, well said Joe O’Rourke of the CSA.
http://www.thecsa.co.uk/showthread.php?t=496
ernie lynch says:
15 November, 2011 at 17:34
The Manchester Martyrs
The trial took place in what was described as a “climate of anti-Irish hysteria” by the weekly Reynold’s Newspaper, which described it as a “deep and everlasting disgrace to the English government”, the product of an ignoble panic which seized the governing classes. A yell of vengeance, it said, had issued from every aristocratic organ, and that before any evidence had been obtained the prisoners guilt was assumed and their executions had been demanded.[33][34]
Things do not change. In a Protestant country you are guilty until proven innocent.
Bonty
May I be so bold as to ask that my own plump behind be
included on your wee ‘Moronic’ list of jaggy arsed Offenders.
I fear however that the increasing rolecall on each your subsequent
posts of the named offenders may just become too much a strain for
your limp wrists their otherwise sole use in self gratification.
Onanism is it illicit or illegal?….best ask Eddie the Plod.
HH
The ole blog has been intense today,loved every minute of it,
right from the start Paul67,JF,BRT&H and Estadio through to losers like
……………………………………………..Bada Bing and ehhh me.
Magic :O)
Kojo
Sorry for late reply
Personally, any bad that the GB have done is totally outweighed by the good
I feel they are being wrongly singled out on this one but maybe, just to prove we’re the better people, the IRA songs have to go, yet we still should have the right to sing songs about our proud Irish heritage
HH
Good evening friends.
Jobo
Greenwells Glory
It will then, following that verdict and any consequences at present or in future, be up to each individual supporter to decide what action he or she should take in order to ensure the wellbeing of the whole Celtic reputation. Not hard really is it?
The “Celtic reputation”? You mean as kowtowing uncle toms happy to keep schtum in order that Dermot Desmond can crow about his “emotional” investment? At least the board in the fifties knew right from wrong when regardless of the consequences they would NOT remove the tri-colour. We are at the same juncture again, except this time Desmond is asking “what would nike do?”. He knows the effect on the bottom line, not on the soul. Much like his ownership of old folks homes. Odd that.
“Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you’re a man, you take it.” – Malcolm X. We could learn a lot form that man.
If it were down to me, if found guilty, the reply would be simple – “Dear UEFA, I wasn’t born with enough middle fingers. Regards, P8ddy”.
The “Celtic reputation”…I guess that’s all in the interpretation…
/p
I would implore all my fellow Celtic fans to read the statement released by The Green Brigade even if you dont agree with their way of supporting Celtic, it puts it plain and simple how WE the Celtic support are under attack. HH
Bhoycott all away games,bring Scottish football to its knees,no that will not do,lets put the boot into The Green Brigade.Lawwell and his ilk must be obeyed,our ancestors must be turning in their graves.Appeasement maybe for some, not for me.Slan
In the rush to stamp out “discriminatory” chanting; When UEFA and the SFA crack down on the following words or phrases, I’ll accept that NO song has a place in a football ground…
“Idiot”
“Fat”
“Lazy”
“Ponderous”
“Coward”
“Who ate all the pies?”
“Speccy”
“Ugly”
“Ginger”
“Bald”
etc etc etc…
Offence is entirely subjective. And i for one, will not stand for the Celtic support being discriminated against by dint of us being told that perfectly legal and reasonable songs should not be sung simply because one subset of society have discovered they can wield whatever powers they choose in the direction of their choosing. Subjective justice is injustice. Subjective justice is injustice. Repeat after me…subjective justice is injustice.
It’s a farce. Why are there people who wish to discriminate against us, and why are we letting them? Bring on the firestorm.
/p