All it took was one man, Eddie Smith, who joined the referees strike a year ago as their body became embroiled in allegations of lying, bullying and sectarianism, to make it his business to report Celtic fans to Uefa and the SPL, and the support are besieged on two fronts.
After decades of the police turning a deaf ear to illegal and offensive chanting elsewhere this might appear opportunistic, but Smith’s motivations are irrelevant. We have endured ‘the songs debate’ here for years, the only thing universally agreed upon is that as long as a single Celtic fan sings political songs at a game, this day would come.
I sincerely doubt that Celtic fans sing anything illegal, which perhaps explains why the police encourage observers to ‘police’ the stands, but no one denies many people, including a number of Celtic fans, find such singing offensive. There is, therefore, scope to mount an attempt to discipline the club, and an easy route to inflict reputational damage on each and every Celtic supporter.
The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.
Don’t take the notion that attempts to prosecute are likely to fail as legal advice. In my experience, lawyers become a lot less certain once proceedings are underway.
On a separate note, I was pleased to read Iain Blair of the SPL differentiate pro-IRA chanting from sectarian chanting. Lazy jounos everywhere take note.
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Hi Ghuys, Salve salve;- I’ll make just this one interjection on the “illicit songs” debate.
It has been reported to UEFA that there was an unsporting occurrence at Celtic Park during the game against Rennes. This, it has been reported took the form of “illicit songs” being sung. The UEFA representative put it in his match report and UEFA have judged that Celtic have a case to answer.Now to me we have a situation which many have been wanting for a long time, that is some of the repetoire of songs being sung by a section of the Celtic support will be judged by an impartial non Scottish jury and they will render a verdict as to the accpetability,or otherwise of the said songs.
It will then, following that verdict and any consequences at present or in future, be up to each individual supporter to decide what action he or she should take in order to ensure the wellbeing of the whole Celtic reputation. Not hard really is it?
Greenwells
Aegrescit medendo
watch football
Graham Spiers Commentary
Last updated March 21 2011 12:01AM
Another week, another excruciating example of the problem Rangers have with a large section of their support. Walter Smith’s team, going into Sunday’s Co-operative Insurance Cup final as underdogs, won quite a few admirers for their gritty 2-1 win over Celtic.
Alas, no one who was at Hampden Park as a neutral, and who had any understanding of the type of songs that were being sung, could have found anything remotely appealing in the antics of the Rangers support.
For fully 120 minutes the Ibrox legions belted out stuff about the Pope, Fenians, and some of their other favoured subjects.
Quite a few of us have become used to “the Rangers problem” over the years but Sunday at Hampden was still quite an eye-opener. It was the consistent, incessant nature of the bigoted chanting that was truly shocking.
One of the problems we have in tackling bigotry in Scottish football is the sheer ignorance of the subject that we have to put up with. For instance, Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Secretary, clearly didn’t have a clue what he was talking about, to judge from the fatuous statement he released after attending the match at Hampden.
After the prejudiced chants had boomed out, the following was MacAskill’s take on the whole spectacle. “This was the showpiece everyone wanted to see — it was a great advert for Scottish football,” he said. “The players, management and fans contributed to a memorable occasion, and I urge that their positive example inside the ground is replicated outside it over the course of the evening and beyond. Football is a force for good in society.”
Given the nature of what was chanted inside Hampden, this was an utterly ludicrous statement. MacAskill, clearly, is totally unfamiliar with the sort of problems given an airing at Hampden if he thinks that the sort of chanting which the Rangers fans kept up apace represented “fans contributing to a memorable occasion.” This is risible.
I didn’t expect a Rangers statement yesterday on the shocking tone of their supporters’ singing, and nor was one forthcoming. Rangers’ preferred position on their problem is this: let’s just have a general media silence on the subject, and let’s keep any fuss to a minimum. From Rangers’ point of view, the fewer headlines there are about their problem, the less need there is of any requirement to act.
But that is a tough scenario to hope for. The Ibrox club have already been censured by Uefa over bigotry, and more than that, a number of Rangers supporters’ songs have specifically been banned by European football’s governing body. So it is asking a lot for every newspaper to turn a blind eye (or deaf ear) towards songs which have repeatedly been outlawed.
What is more galling for those who want to be rid of this poison is the seeming ignorance — such as was revealed by MacAskill — or inability in government or police circles to be able to fix it.
Hampden on Sunday rang out to bigoted chanting from the Rangers end, yet the police statistics for “sectarian-related crimes” were paltry, never mind MacAskill’s absurd words about how wonderful it all was.
This isn’t government action. On the contrary, this is inaction, and even incompetence. The truth is, we are getting nowhere today with the problem of sectarianism in football. In fact, we are regressing, Edinburgh summits or not, at an alarming rate.
Rangers, in trying to fight their own specific problem, have lost ground. Indeed, if you were at Hampden on Sunday, with bigoted chant after chant ringing out, you would think that the club had gone back ten years in their quest to solve the problem. And for many others, meanwhile, it actually means very little.
OK, so there is sectarian chanting, they say. So what? What does it matter? Just let it go, let’s just concentrate on the football.
Rangers lack the guts to truly take on their own support on the issue, and the same applies for the Scottish FA.
The docking of points really would force the bigots to stop their chanting, and the SFA has the power to do this, but it is too scared to.
Meanwhile, too many other people won’t touch this problem with a bargepole, claiming the accompanying aggro that comes with such debate simply isn’t worth it.
So Scotland just goes on living with its embarrassing bigotry problem. Ignorance, incompetence and cowardice ensure it.
BontyBhoy;
“I was non-catholic/Irish and like any child was having a devil of a time understanding why the Irish, cheeky chappy neighbours of ours were bombing us.”
Maybe you should have picked up a book and read about it. If that wasn’t outside your ability.
“Losing a little respect for the IRA stand point and then working out why, and then finally feeling very sorry for the Irish and the Brits whose lives had been ruined by this intemperate organisation.”
This comes from never having properly understood the historical forces which led to the creation of that organisation. The people I feel most sorry for are those ordinary, decent folk who wanted nothing more than to live in a country where the rights of one man were not respected over the rights of another because of his religion, where brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins and friends had been arrested, or worse, and who decided they had to abandon any pretence that a normal life was possible in such circumstances and took the choice to foergo even the chance at such a life and became engaged in the Armed Struggle.
The strength to stand up like that, the courage, the conviction, the passion and dedication, and the love of country and people, that decision must have taken is enormous, incalculable, an idea utterly alien to me who did not have to grow up with it and in it, as a part of it.
Unlike you, I can understand why these things happened, why otherwise ordinary people deemed them necessary, as other such people have, across the world, in times of utmost need and in utmost despair. I believe honouring those who consciously made that sacrfice is right, and just and your total ignorance of the myriad factors which led to that decision makes no less contemptuous of your position than I was before.
BONTYBHOY 1642
You frequently come on here to lecture us in the wrongs of our ways,yet persist in referring to us as morons.
This appears to be your favourite word when having a discussion.
You might be wider appreciated were you to be somewhat more subtle when you engage.
Not sure that is the plan though.
When you simply insult the poster to whom you reply,and as many others as possible in collateral damage,is it any wonder we all think yer a prick?
James Forrest is Lennon at 16:46
All these splinter groups are the IRA. They may be have different starts like “Real” or “Continuity” but all still trace their lineage back to the “official” IRA of the 1910s and 1920s.
The “Provisional” IRA are also technically a splinter group from the “Official” IRA.
The Provisional IRA are no longer in operation but those others still describe themselves as the IRA and even if not commemorated in song, the difference may not be apparent to many. I have sung songs in support of various incarnations of the IRA. I have supported the IRA. I now support the peace process that has been put in place and bringing some sense of normality back to this country that I love.
I also love Celtic but for my own reasons, I don’t sing songs about the IRA when I’m watching Celtic (or Ireland or GAA games for that matter) because I just don’t really see what benefits it brings.
For all that, I don’t think the songs should be criminalised or that the club should be held to account for the actions of supporters, but it saddens me to see the club being brought down.
Mort
ernie lynch says:
15 November, 2011 at 16:51
greenjedi says:
15 November, 2011 at 16:47
‘Songs that glorify the Provisional Irish Republican Army have NO place at Celtic games.’
Is it OK to sing a song commemorating Irishmen who were executed for murdering a British policeman?
BTW I seem to recall that you’re a member/supporter of the SNP. Is there any talk within the party of Christine Grahame being an anti Catholic bigot?
………………..
Nice try at deflection, but it not going to work.
“Is it OK to sing a song commemorating Irishmen who were executed for murdering a British policeman?”
Why, would you want to sing about that at a Celtic game? Whats your motivation?
I vote SNP because I’m a Republican Nationalist, I’ve not been a member since the last millenium.
Answer the questions put to you without trying to side track the issue.
My dear,dear,dear,friend..Jist Pat
Pal.. So ye like Oor Champion.. CUECEE?
Bully, Bully..fur you,kiddo.
So dae Ah.. Ah think he is a Smashin Fellah…
He is right, in Getting tae the Nub of the Nub.. Of the Nub.. of where
those responsible for our latest Crisis… reside.
And that is.. whthin, the FRIENDLY HARBOR… o’ the …
The Green Brigade..
Fur.. They are at the Heart of the Problem.. fur…they harbor within Their Ranks.
Maist ,if not all ..of the Recalcitrant Celtic Youths.. who are The Guilty Parties..and the Instigators of oor Present Leetle Problem whit the Fiba’ing… Big Kahunas
o’ Eufa
The Green Brigade, fur whitever reason.. seem to think the They are Being singled oot by the Celtic Administration..
well..
They are RIGHT!
The Green Brigade ARE SO… Being ..”SINGLED OOT” by the Celtic Administration..
and the reason they Are..Being ‘Singled Oot”, is Because..
It is some Members of Their Organization ,who are involved in this Glorification of the Provos.
Sure.. The ADMIRERS of the Provos.. who make up a loat of the Members of The Green Brigade must be held responsible fur..
Maist of this Trouble, in which we , Celtic are Heading Into.
In Ma Opinion.. of course.. In Ma .. Opiniion.
Kojo
Yer pal..who likes ye aloater.
greenjedi 16.47 I agree with your post we are a Scottish football club not an Irish political organisation.H.H.
Mort says:
Simplistic nonsense, and a sterling re-write of history. I might as well say the British Army that murdered innocent Indians trying to win their freedom is the same British Army that murdered civilians on Bloody Sunday and the same British Army we’re asked to honour wearing the poppy.
Of course, if I said such things on here I would be branded a reactionary loon by people like you.
Seriously. That is unworthy of even debate, and I don’t know why I just responded to it.
Brogan et al from earlier…
Thoughtful, articulate post that clarifies the whole farce.
I think Paul McBride QC is pitching for that old Sunday Mail regular Gig…
The Judge.
In some ways it’s amusing; in others it’s almost tragic.
When they are in bother with “alleged” problems, – because they are never definite problems, there are “allegations” – these are usually caused by visiting Chelsea fans disguising themselves as Rangers fans who have also managed to find addresses in Scotland; many. many miles away from Chelsea.
The least whiff of a problem at CP we do not have allegations but hard facts and demands for action – even before the charges are know.
The media in this country is a disgrace; we should exclude them immediately from Celtic Park.
Still don’t understand why mouthing those chants or singing those songs is done at CP. I have seen not on cogent argument why it happens.
All the comments of honour or dishonour, sectarian or political, conspiracy or obvious etc. etc. seem to me to have nothing to do with giving Celtic players maximum vocal support. Unless of course giving Celtic players maximum vocal support is way, way down the priority list of some folk.
For the record I go to CP to give maximum energetic support to the players & the Club. It is my number one, no, my only priority on match day.
I have other priorities on other days and express myself, as is my right, on other platforms, in other places and to other audiances.
How could anyone else do otherwise?
Philvis… ok that was funnier. A wee bit of redemption, in my now jaded eyes. :)
This is an attack on Celtic supporters and specifically the GB.
They add flavour, colour and non stop vocal support.
The few times I have been at games in the past prior to the GB, the support has been quiet expecting to be entertained and waiting for the goals to come.
I have watched on TV to midweek games in various Cups and seen a low crowd and have expected the worst. Often the team have struggled.
Recently the GB have driven the support and team on at home. This a strategy to undermine the GB and cause division in our support. Fan groups including the GB should meet and agree a strategy to see Ta through this. Agree a songlist and stick by it.
Let’s all get behind it and let the people sing.
Mort says:
Let me take another stab at that, because I actually do agree with much of what you said, albiet the point about “various incarnations of the IRA” being wrong.
I, like you, didn’t sing those songs at the football, and I do not believe those songs belong there. Like you, however, I am against punishing people for singing them, far less punishing our club. Where we disagree is in that I don’t think it has dragged our club down.
Our club has been dragged down by people who hate us pursuing a racist, bigoted agenda. And I believe that if they did not have this issue they would invent another one, much as they have invented this. I have spent today arguing why the songs our guys sing are no different than songs sung everywhere and I have argued that criminalising them in the football stadium is a small step along a road to more general criminalisation.
Mate, sorry if the tone of my post came off as being confrontational. You and I essentially believe the same thing here. I may disagree with you on certain points, but on the main argument, and the main issue, we are in lock-step.
I want to congratulate Joe O’Rourke at this point for his post of earlier today. Does anyone know who this kid is who’s been arrested and what the story is?
Of all the things I’ve read today, that is EASILY the most worrying and demonstrates clearly that the intent here is a wider one than merely eradicating certain songs.
Mort says:
15 November, 2011 at 16:57
you’d be hard pressed to find anyone from here(the north) who would disagree with that, in my opinion.
UC
JOHANN MURDOCH
Brilliant!
Would love to hear that getting belted out.
Group Think
When you’re backed into a corner with nowhere left to go,
Take your time, think about it, and come back out real slow,
Remember how they got you? Doesn’t matter that you’re right,
Because the only thing left to do is come back out and fight!
This will be a tough one as an establishment is hard to beat,
Will take all of our resources, to conquer their deceit,
The trick is stay together, the herd mentality is best,
Don’t let them split us up, singled out from the rest.
Group think is the answer, to fight against this foe,
Put away you differences, plough the same furrow,
They won’t let up believe me, this is just the start,
Will do everything in their power, to pull us all apart.
PJBhoynyc
long time sent a good friend of celtic to wd50 recently -dodgy street
The No.13 Shorts says:
15 November, 2011 at 16:42
========ஜ۩۞۩ஜ========
◄ ██▓░░ respect ░░▓██ ►
========ஜ۩۞۩ஜ========
greenjedi says:
15 November, 2011 at 16:
‘Why, would you want to sing about that at a Celtic game? Whats your motivation?’
You’d have to ask Brother Walfrid.
He thought it was appropriate.
You evidently don’t.
MORT 1657
I bow to your superior knowledge on this,but the “official ” IRA in Belfast but from my recollection,they were run out of town after the Ballymurphy riots due to not defending the population.
Apologies if I’m wrong.
Awe_Naw arrives home from holiday with his new guitar
Whitedoghunch
Still not visited the spot but know the street and have passed by.
Yes. Hardcore….
Bobby
Likewise mate.
I rarely start it… so when you get a moronic reply, and believe me there’s nothing impressive about some of the crap i’ve had on here then I tend to think it’s fair game. I know the history of this and I know who the morons are. So when I’m under fire from Canalmar, Imatim or Aw Naw I could care less what you think of the tone.
Bottom line – I’m a football fan and Celtic are my team. I think there are many great things about Celtic and in my experience that includes almost every fan i’ve ever met. Indeed I rarely meet fans of any club who are a problem – I mean I guess it depends what you bring to the party doesn’t it. I suspect I’d like a lot of guys on here, but, I know for a fact that some of them are not normal and I’ve no desire to meet them nor curry favour with them… they genuinely appear to be sub-human. So, given that they publicly represent Celtic, the club I’m so keen on, I’m going to give them hell everytime they say something moronic.
I think some of them have it the wrong way round. You can’t bully someone who isn’t scared and isn’t running away. I’m afraid I’m a thorn in their fat arses.
Ernie Lynch Can you tell us where it stated by Brother Walfrid he wanted the Celtic supporters to chant and sing IRA songs ? Ive said it before I will say it again we are a Scottish Football club not an Irish political Organisation.HH.
We seem to have been accused under this new bill they are trying to push through ,have they actually pushed it through yet or is it not law .
If they have not then why can we be accused at this moment .
Also if they are referring to the add ons and not the actual songs then why do the singers not just sing the songs without the add ons
Forgive my ignorance
hail hail
A fat arse in my thorn
Green Brigade statement
On the 29th of October, 2000 Celtic fans came together in Glasgow’s George Square to hold a very successful and peaceful rally against the SNP’s anti-Football Bill. They listened to speakers from the Fans Against Criminalisation campaign detail how the Bill criminalises football fans and the Celtic support, and how dangerous it would be to extend the law to give even more powers to the police.
After the rally, fans then proceeded on to Celtic Park. Along the way they picked up a heavily-manned police escort, complete with helicopter. Inside the stadium there was a further show of opposition against the Offensive Behaviour at Football Bill, with over 100 supporters clubs displaying banners against the Bill and in support of Fans Against Criminalisation.
While the campaign could call on the overwhelming support of Celtic fans, Strathclyde Police clearly were not on message. Fans arriving at the stadium after the protest were greeted with a warning from a senior police officer: ‘you aren’t above the law, we are the law’. During the following 90 minutes and the fortnight since, the police have tried to prove their point. Although we are used to petty harassment from police and constantly being under video surveillance at matches, we were surprised to see a far larger than usual police presence in 111 – there were reportedly 20 officers in and around the stairwell in front of our section.
The match was pretty uneventful – goalless on the park and nothing out of the ordinary off it until the last 7 or 8 minutes of the game. Then, Strathclyde Police made their move. Hand-held cameras in place, they attempted to arrest someone within the section but many fans did not take kindly to their attempts to charge into a crowd and held off police who were pushing and shoving them. The police retreated empty-handed but after the match they again tried to apprehend someone as fans were walking out of the stadium. This time their (again, unsuccessful) attempts saw a young girl barged over and a crush was only narrowly avoided. The operation was clearly pre-planned: it was the first time in two seasons that the police have entered the rows of our section, it happened on the same day as Celtic fans held a successful demonstration against the criminalisation of our support and as we later found out, preceded a police complaint to the SPL delegate about ‘offensive chanting’. It seems that Strathclyde Police are Alex Salmond’s boot boys.
A few days after the Hibs match, reps from the Celtic Supporters Association and Celtic Trust met with Ronnie Hawthorn, Celtic’s Operations Manager, to discuss their concerns about the behaviour of the police. They requested a meeting with Eddie Smith, the match commander who had directed the police’s operation. At previous meetings with Smith (ironically enough, about safety issues), Smith told both the CSA and Trust that he welcomed dialogue with fans. Not this time, however, as Smith refused to meet the fan representatives. The CSA and Trust then wrote to his boss, Chief Superintendent Wayne Mawson, asking for a meeting. Unlike Smith, Mawson said he would be happy to meet but that he would not be willing to discuss the events of the 29th. Unsurprisingly, his offer was turned down.
Since then, Eddie Smith has made official complaints to SPL and UEFA match delegates about ‘offensive chanting’ by the Celtic support at the Hibs game and the subsequent match at home to Rennes. Smith is also the Crown’s main witness in a case against two of our members, both charged with a sectarian breach of the peace for unfurling a banner containing the word ‘huns’ (the only other witness is a member of Celtic’s security staff, himself a former police officer). The SPL and UEFA investigations prompted by his complaints will be conducted while the Scottish Parliament debates and votes on the anti-Football Bill, and will no doubt be covered at length by the media. We doubt this is a coincidence. Already, the propaganda war has begun – today the back page of Glasgow’s local rag carries, under a lurid headline, comments from a publicity-hungry QC close to the Celtic board who calls on us to be banned. It seems he has joined the ranks of the legal establishment who are determined to take a boot at our group and the wider Celtic support.
At 7 am on Friday morning, a 17 year-old fan was arrested on suspicion of a sectarian breach of the peace, and for evading arrest at the Hibs match. He spent the weekend in police cells and yesterday appeared at the Sheriff Court. After the Procurator Fiscal appealed the judge’s decision to grant bail, the young fan was remanded in custody in Polmont Young Offenders Institute until December 23rd. You haven’t misread that – that’s a 17-year-old Celtic fan locked up for allegedly singing a song that Eddie Smith finds offensive.
Celtic fans, and ourselves in particular, are under attack from the government and the police, who are determined to criminalise us for their own ends. We really appreciate the support we have had already, and we will be considering our next actions carefully over the coming days and weeks. In the meantime, we call on all Celtic fans to oppose the criminalisation of our support and to unite behind the Fans Against Criminalisation campaign.
Mort, very good post @16.53 and agree with ulster celt that people from the north don’t want the songs sung at CP
SFFS
Afternoon
With regard to those that have written about what Rangers, and Hearts fan sing, let’s not waste anyone’s time.
The authorities within Scotland don’t give a monkeys what they sing. They will allow them to get away with virtual murder all day long. We have all known this for many years. It doesn’t make it right. It’s simply an unsavoury fact of life in Scotland.
We should be concerned about the welfare of our club, not concerning oursleves with others. Unfortunately Eddie Smith, who may well have a (not so) hidden agenda has found a way of creating mischief. Whether his allegations have any basis in fact remains to be seen. Be that as it may, and regardless of this incident resulting in punitive action by either EUFA, or SPL, this should serve as a warning shot across the bows for those of our supporters who may well feel sympathy for PIRA and want to sing about it.
I’ll be completely upfront. I despise the IRA, and all that it stands for. With good reason. Firstly I was in the Arndale Centre, with my wife, and eldest child in Manchester the day those gits decided to blow the living daylights out of the place. And secondly, I was on a plane at Heathrow that they thought would make good target practise for a mortar bomb.
When I hear anyone singing pro IRA songs at Parkhead, and down the years, I have heard such songs many times, I find it embarassing. We now live in an age where, thanks to modern media outlets, stories get spread around like wildfire. It doesn’t matter if they are true or not. Think of all the stories we have all seen down the years about Celtic that were just complete nonsense.
The message is clear, we have to keep our own house in order, and not give the Eddie Smiths of this world a platform from which they can create trouble for Celtic, and it’s supporters. We have to be seen to be whiter than white. As Paul67 says, these songs may well not be illegal. But they do cause offence to many, and there is no two ways about it, divides opinions amongst Celtic Supporters.
Personally I hope this case flounders, and as Paul67 has suggested that lawerys start to lose confidence. However, we as supporters need to be vigilant that there are those who would love to see us take a fall.
Hail Hail
BT
Just in from work and found you have sent me a couple of messages on FB, you have sent them to my real name and I have just messaged you back
Back out again will try and catch you later
BontyBhoy – Re: that Bennetts thing.
I tried being gay for a while but it turned out to be a pain in the backside.
It was worse than the time I had a job as a puffin inspector. (thumbsup)
James forrest
As mort points out, the killing was sectarian as he was targeted on the basis of his religion.
I was asking a poster (not you) for his answer to a question. He had previosly stated that singing IRA songs at football grounds was acceptable. Now to go from saying that he has to be willing to answer follow up questions. Not get on a high horse spouting sanctimonious crap like you have done. Fortunately Ernie managed to answer the question without resorting to vindictive bullying tactics unlike yourself.
I disagree with ernie’s response but he at least replied corteously.
You show yourself up to be a pretentious, self righteous bully towards anyone who has the audacity to disagree with you.
Guess what mate. The world changes. What was acceptable 20 or 30 years ago isn’t always acceptable now.
If people in Manchester or friends of Ronan Kerr hear “up the RA” they are likely to be grossly offended. They won’t stop and say, “hold on, I wonder which specific era of the ira they are referring to. Maybe I’ll contact the decorated cqn poster James Forrest and he’ll tell me if I have the right to be offended”.
Serenity says:
15 November, 2011 at 17:11
Well said Serenity.
Let’s bind together and fight our way out of this corner.
Summer of 65,
my thoughts exactly.
BONTYBHOY 1719
Fair play,defend your corner. I applaud you for that. I do not think that describing everyone who disagrees with you as a moron is a clever way to influence an argument,and sometimes you go further.
You seem to consider yourself as more intelligent than most people on here,yet persist in alienating those with whom you wish to engage.
Hardly the most intelligent approach,IMO. The only way to change someone’s opinion is through persuasion of argument,or alternatively coercion.
Hurling insults at people who are prepared to show their colours on the streets,or meet up with fellow CQNers,is not the way forward for your arguments.
Especially when you are famously reluctant to do so.