Today we have a guest writer, Archie Macpherson, Scotland’s most celebrated broadcaster. Archie started broadcasting for the BBC in the 1960s and was the authoritative voice of football commentaries, and comment, for decades thereafter. He was co-commentator for our first European Cup win and remains a regular newspaper columnist and TV contributor.
I had a brief conversation with Archie last month when he categorically stated that Jock Stein was best manager Scotland has ever produced was. Pleased, though I was, to hear this, in the light of accolades earned by Sir Alex Ferguson, I asked him if he could substantiate his claim.
These questions are enormously subjective but few have the breadth of perspective, not to mention the analytical capacity, to tackle this one properly. This is the article he offered to write for us on the subject:
Jock and Fergie, by Archie Macpherson
If there had been no Jock Stein there would have been no Sir Alex Ferguson. It may sound a contentious statement to make but even though it is tempting to play around with history according to your own beliefs and perceptions I would stand by that as a sound interpretation of the way the respective merits of these men can be set against each other.
It helps in this matter if you can lay aside the achievements of those men from the record books and instead consider their personalities and the context in which they plied their trade.
When Jock came to Celtic as manager in 9th March 1965, he fully understood from his past experience there as a player and coach that he would find a club desperate to achieve a commanding status in Scottish football. The frustration they felt only reflected that which their massive support similarly endured around that period. They were massive underachievers.
He also knew from his own background that his task would not simply be about selecting a team, then motivating them, but about radically overhauling the perception the public in general had about the club and which stemmed mainly from the constructs of the media.
It may be difficult for a current generation to fully comprehend this but Celtic then were simply perceived as bit players in a drama where the lead actor came from Govan and always took the curtain-calls. Stein changed all that. He took on the press-pack like he had been sent in from the city’s sanitation department to fumigate.
If you didn’t turn up on the dot for his press conferences then the door was slammed on your face no matter the size of your ego. His television interviews, unlike the passive posture of that likeable man his predecessor Jimmy McGrory, were often truculent and challenging. All of this concentrated the mind of those who wrote and spoke about Celtic. They would think twice about saying anything that might offend the big man. He was strengthening Celtic’s image and, as a by-product of that, securing the self-esteem within the playing staff which previously had been sadly lacking.
And where was Sir Alec at this time? He was watching, observing. I saw him sitting in the lounge of Malpensa Airport Milan in 1970, in the aftermath of the European Cup Final there, amidst thousands of Celtic supporters, which given his Rangers connections only indicated his deep interest in what Jock was doing.
Fergie to his credit was a learner. When he went to Old Trafford it was not to a club about which there was lack of public respect. It was initial lack of respect for himself which made him take up arms against his detractors. To go to a Fergie press-conference was to see a recreation of Jock at the height of his powers. And from being beside Jock in the dressing-room, and on the bench at Scotland games, he absorbed Jock’s handling of men which could range from wrath to wit. The so-called ‘hairdryer’ treatment Fergie handed out only simulated what Jock could do to make the walls of a dressing-room bulge when it got up his hump.
Where they differed enormously as men was that Jock did not harbour grudges in quite the same way as Fergie. Jock did have his difficulties with the BBC initially but never refused to deal with them. Fergie barred them for over a decade, then got an award from the same people. So I am suggesting that although you cannot compare the achievements made in entirely different footballing environments, Fergie served his apprenticeship in the Stein era by consequently adopting much of the big man’s methodology. Jock was the ice-breaker. Fergie was the follow up.
In that sense, as the one was indispensable to the success of the other, I rate Jock as the master of the two.
My thanks to Archie for his contribution.
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NegAnon2
11:28 on
10 January, 2014
The GB admitted that, while the actions at Motherwell weren’t by their members they had a duty to police the behaviour of those that attach themselves to the group, and that they failed in that duty.
To date, I’m not aware (despite asking a few times) of there being an official GB response to the actions the Club took after the Motherwell game.
We hear often enough that the Club’s silence on certain matters makes them complicit.
Does the GB’s silence make them complicit in the moves made against fans in section 111 that were punished despite having no connection to the GB?
For the record, I don’t think the actions of the club were appropriate.
Marrakesh Express
‘Johnstone and Auld were not in the same class as Ferenc Puskas and Alfredo Di Stefano’
Ah well you learn something new every day.
Jimbo67 supporting Oscar Knox
Starry Plough
the authorities would most certainly have moved some earth for us!
MWD says YES
Archie’s book on Jock Stein is excellent. If you haven’t read it, I would thoroughly recommend it.
one of the first things that jock had to do was to take over the
back pages of the papers (he did)
the govan mob then had to employ a reporter as pr man who was giving them
free positive spin in the sunday mail .
things never change .
Afternoon all,
Have to take a moment out of my day to thank Archie for being the voice of (a) football for the duration of my youth. Still remains one of my fondest football memories.
And thanks Paul
Fergie has said, many times, that Jock was the greatest. He has never shown a moments hubris on this topic.
What Jock did, beyond all the trophies, was play a big part in the revolution of football as we know it – full backs, 4-2-4 and 4-4-2, were clarified and established by that Celtic team. And a style of play that I recently read was described as ‘total football, like the Dutch, but speeded up…’ wish I could remember where I read or heard that (sure someone will).
cheers Paul, I like this kind of stuff from CQN.
kevjungle
11:04 on 10 January, 2014
Are you hugh keevin’s agent, or brother….!!!!?
HH
Swwwwwept away….
Archie .. Legend..
HH
Moonbeams WD. Kano 2000 \o/ Supporting Neil Lennon 99.9%. Champions. C’mon Wee Oscar.
Dig your own hole I believe Tom Waits said!!
Thanks to Archie for taking the time to give us his point of view. Appreciated.
So today’s burning question is surely – what monicker does Archie usually post under? C’mon Archie, you’ve taken the first step ;-)
If the cheating and corruption is to be truly addresses then IMO it will take a total boycott by fans of all teams of all matches played in Scotland .
weeminger
11:59 on 10 January, 2014
NegAnon2
11:28 on
10 January, 2014
Thanks, weeminger, for making the point I would have made……noone likes the GB more than I do, but supporting the team during a game should be their main priority, without the political stuff…….and, also for the record, I don’t think the Board should have banned ANYONE until the investigation was completed…….however, if they hadn’t, the GB may have continued down the wrong path, and that would just have made matters worse……hope to see GB back SOON…..
BontyBhoy – that quote is on the Lisbon Lions wikipedia page.
Also an interesting fact to come out of the Archie Macpherson book – big Jock didn’t die of a heart attack; he drowned.
Great article from Archie, chapeau old Bhoy!!!
Anyway….I say they are all cheats and scoundrels, exceedingly ugly, and bereft of any intelligence.
Racist bigots who hate everyone and everything(including themselves), throwbacks to a bygone age….Neolithic probably.
Might I just add here, that personally I hate every bigoted one of them.
Im usually a fair minded guy, but that abomination of a so-called football team, should be cast in to the fires of hell….if hell exists:)
They bring nothing but shame to football, and I will pure love it when sevco die, just like their knuckle-dragging ancestors R******, who of course are deid now.
Hell slap it right intae them.
However, what cheers me up, is watching those bhoys in the hoops run on to the park, and I never fail to get that buzz when I see the Celtic.
HH
phyllis dietrichson
12:17 on 10 January, 2014
Any detail on HOW big Jock drowned, and why it wasn’t the ‘reported’ cause of death at the time..?
the green man
12:22 on 10 January, 2014
Your spelling is atrocious……it’s not “deid”‘ it’s ‘deed’ …….. Just to remind everyone about the deeds…..hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Jobo Baldie
12:15 on
10 January, 2014
So today’s burning question is surely – what monicker does Archie usually post under? C’mon Archie, you’ve taken the first step ;-)
*************************************************************
Jobo…… I can exclusively reveal that…………..
I am Archie MacSpartacus!
HH jamesgang
The Green Man. Hell does exist let me assure you. I am there right now I am suffering from goute and that is Hell. H.H.
67Heaven
Deceased might be better…….Rangers are deceased, sounds good
Ya beauty:)
HH
67Heaven – one of the side effects JS suffered after his serious car crash (about 1976/77) was that he had to take some kind of water tablets every day. On the day of the Scotland v Wales match he was so uptight that he didn’t take the tablets. He did have a heart attack at the end of the game, but that wasn’t what killed him – in fact they had enough medical equipment at the ground to save someone from a heart attack, but Jock’s lungs had filled with water i.e. he drowned.
This is my recollection (and I’m sure there’s a better medical name for the water tablets), but if someone has the book in front of them they’ll be able to give you chapter & verse.
Joe Filippis Haircut
A herbal remedy might help:)
HH
Always amused me when Archie would say “Kenny Dalglish……..and he’s going to let flyyyyyyyyy……..and it’s there.” Let fly??
Last saw him at the 11th tee on The Old Course at the 2010 Open, it was so windy his shredded wheat hair would have ended up on the New Course- if he still had any.
I was an Arthur Montford apostle myself. His commentaries for the 1973 game v Czechoslovakia and ’77 v Wales at Anfield are the stuff of legends
67heaven … i am neil lennon, supporting wee oscar..!!.. ibrox belongs to the creditors
10:56 on 10 January, 2014
kevjungle
10:51 on 10 January, 2014
They better no gie me the smokin gun…….in case I point it in your direction……hahahahahahaha…..aff ‘in’, to avoid meeting you ‘oot’
C’mon Kev you have to admit the last part was funny :)
The Green Man. Thanks fella a few stiff whiskies would take the pain away for a bit but I would suffer even more tomorrow. H.H.
JFH
You have my sympathy. Get on the allopurinol once this episode has passed. GP will sort you out.
Meantime, I found drinking shed loads of Cherry juice helped shorten the episodes considerably. You can get concentrate from the likes of Holland and Barrett, pricey, but it’s worth it.
Take a long glass of it every hour. It seems to help flush the crystals out of the joints and you can feel the effects within a day.
It’s not a cure all, but it is a help.
Phyllis Dietrichson
Thanks, that sounds about right. It’s odd, but no matter how often I read about it, it always cheers me up. I’m sure it was a quote, but can’t recall from whom. Now, though, I can look it up.
Grweat guest article Paul and what makes this site so great.
Good result last night.
Listened to Mark Guidi bully a caller who had the audacity to challemgen him…Mark if (and I’m sure you do lurk) all the big clubs do.. speculated usually on 13 to 16 year olds with some incredible sums paid out (do your own homework as you are paid to)… but I forgot we’re all in the ‘poor house now’.
Celtic has outgrown Scottish football however is stuck with all the other clubs trying to drag it back down to their level….today’s article was great timing… the time we ventured into the sun!!!!!
Hail Hail
The Battered Bunnet.Thank you for the advice. I have been on allopurinol for years this is the first attack I have had in about six years and I have no idea why I have it.I am waiting to see if my Doc will issue me with a prescription without me hirpling up to his surgery I have to ring back after one oclock. H.H.
Archie Macpherson – if your in, great read that.
my fav Archie one is :-
its a lower one this time, oh, it must be, McAvennie!
No prize here, but what game was this?
I think Puskas and di Stefano (in that order) are the best players I ever had the pleasure to see.
May well be wrong, of course. Just that they were so good against the team who humped the deid team fae Govan.
Archie aint one of us… he takes his grandweans to watch the hibees.
Have heard him speak at a few celtic events.. always comes across as fair and knowledgeable.
Two things stick in my memory. .
His opinion of Britney. . Said he had no clue about football .
His opinion of the tax evasion.. said it was a discrace . We all have a social responsibility . He said he earns a decent sized crust so should therefore pay a bigger slice to society than less well off. And football clubs were no different.
Always thought Archie was a hun.
Always thought Nevin was hunnish.
Who we gonna interview next?
JFH
Bummer!
It happens now and again. Prob related to Christmas type diet…
I find etoricoxib most effect pain relief. It’s a Cox 2 anti-inflammatory, marketed as Arcoxia. Does the job better than the usual co-codamol + diclofenac.
But gen up, walloping down the cherry juice (and staying off the beer) will give a pretty quick benefit.
philbhoy – free the dam 5!
Not been on regularly recently , has the Nevin interview been on CQN or in the magazine ?
JOE FILIPPIS HAIRCUT
As TBB says,cherry juice works wonders. I have recommended it to a few sufferers I know.
An alternative,though not as strong,is Vimto Cordial. You can get that from ASDA.
Archie was not one of us but, by the standards of the time, he had become an honorary member. When most others in the media world were content to side automatically with the establishment, Archie was professional enough to try to live up to the best of the BBC’s heritage, a commitment to fair and honest evaluation of the football.
Just as he praised the football of the Celtic 9iar, he was also able to praise Rangers dominance of the early 90s, without ever suggesting that Souness or Smith, though he would have more time for the latter, were the equal of Big Jock.
As I say, he is not a Celtic man. He is a football man with maybe a bit more leaning towards us but that is only based on football appreciation, nothing else.
Like many in the media, at the time, he did not make enough of a stand on the apartheid employment policy at Ibrox but, in the list of journos and broadcasters at the time, he was fairer to us than most.
He is also a clever guy, a good writer and committed to fair dealings. As I say, that does not place him on our side but he is a more supportive neutral than many in the print and media world.
Both Jock and Alex were giants among managers but had flaws as people, as we all do. Both could be bullying, unreasonable and hold a grudge. As Archie says, Jock tended to do it in defence of his club; Alex did it often on his own personal whim. Both were successful in creating a more favourable reporting climate for their clubs. Jock made us less of an easy target; Alex made Man U almost uncriticisable and the media establishment darlings. Both needed a winning team to win that battle though.
Jock Stein, for me, shades it, but I fear that the historical record may say different. Archie’s reminder of Jock’s greatness is a worthy attempt to keep the flame alive.