Today we have a guest writer, Archie Macpherson, Scotland’s most celebrated broadcaster. Archie started broadcasting for the BBC in the 1960s and was the authoritative voice of football commentaries, and comment, for decades thereafter. He was co-commentator for our first European Cup win and remains a regular newspaper columnist and TV contributor.
I had a brief conversation with Archie last month when he categorically stated that Jock Stein was best manager Scotland has ever produced was. Pleased, though I was, to hear this, in the light of accolades earned by Sir Alex Ferguson, I asked him if he could substantiate his claim.
These questions are enormously subjective but few have the breadth of perspective, not to mention the analytical capacity, to tackle this one properly. This is the article he offered to write for us on the subject:
Jock and Fergie, by Archie Macpherson
If there had been no Jock Stein there would have been no Sir Alex Ferguson. It may sound a contentious statement to make but even though it is tempting to play around with history according to your own beliefs and perceptions I would stand by that as a sound interpretation of the way the respective merits of these men can be set against each other.
It helps in this matter if you can lay aside the achievements of those men from the record books and instead consider their personalities and the context in which they plied their trade.
When Jock came to Celtic as manager in 9th March 1965, he fully understood from his past experience there as a player and coach that he would find a club desperate to achieve a commanding status in Scottish football. The frustration they felt only reflected that which their massive support similarly endured around that period. They were massive underachievers.
He also knew from his own background that his task would not simply be about selecting a team, then motivating them, but about radically overhauling the perception the public in general had about the club and which stemmed mainly from the constructs of the media.
It may be difficult for a current generation to fully comprehend this but Celtic then were simply perceived as bit players in a drama where the lead actor came from Govan and always took the curtain-calls. Stein changed all that. He took on the press-pack like he had been sent in from the city’s sanitation department to fumigate.
If you didn’t turn up on the dot for his press conferences then the door was slammed on your face no matter the size of your ego. His television interviews, unlike the passive posture of that likeable man his predecessor Jimmy McGrory, were often truculent and challenging. All of this concentrated the mind of those who wrote and spoke about Celtic. They would think twice about saying anything that might offend the big man. He was strengthening Celtic’s image and, as a by-product of that, securing the self-esteem within the playing staff which previously had been sadly lacking.
And where was Sir Alec at this time? He was watching, observing. I saw him sitting in the lounge of Malpensa Airport Milan in 1970, in the aftermath of the European Cup Final there, amidst thousands of Celtic supporters, which given his Rangers connections only indicated his deep interest in what Jock was doing.
Fergie to his credit was a learner. When he went to Old Trafford it was not to a club about which there was lack of public respect. It was initial lack of respect for himself which made him take up arms against his detractors. To go to a Fergie press-conference was to see a recreation of Jock at the height of his powers. And from being beside Jock in the dressing-room, and on the bench at Scotland games, he absorbed Jock’s handling of men which could range from wrath to wit. The so-called ‘hairdryer’ treatment Fergie handed out only simulated what Jock could do to make the walls of a dressing-room bulge when it got up his hump.
Where they differed enormously as men was that Jock did not harbour grudges in quite the same way as Fergie. Jock did have his difficulties with the BBC initially but never refused to deal with them. Fergie barred them for over a decade, then got an award from the same people. So I am suggesting that although you cannot compare the achievements made in entirely different footballing environments, Fergie served his apprenticeship in the Stein era by consequently adopting much of the big man’s methodology. Jock was the ice-breaker. Fergie was the follow up.
In that sense, as the one was indispensable to the success of the other, I rate Jock as the master of the two.
My thanks to Archie for his contribution.
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FourGreenFields
Happy New Year my friend!
Think the interview is in the next CQN magazine.
How’s your Mum?
Well I hope!
The Battered Bunnet. Thanks again I wish it was the Beer I have only had 3 pints since Christmas I think you are right though it is my richer than usual diet over the festive period.H.H.
Falkirkbhoy says Never Give Up Oscar
12:46 on
10 January, 2014
==============================
Centenary Cup Final v Dundee Utd.
Wee story re Archie,
At the 2002 Champions League Final ( The Zidane Goal ), Archie was sitting right behind me in the Celtic End. I don’t know if ths guy with him was blind or it was just habit, but he ‘commentated’ all through the game. A very strange experience.
He may not be Tim, but he has a wee soft spot for us I think. His book on Jock Stein is a great read.
well done
21 – 5 – 79
We you another forced to sell their ticket and watch it in the house cause they were too wee to go!?
I was there, scorcher of a day.
Falkirkbhoy
You should have contacted Esther Rantzen
The night sky will be added to the ff banned list tonight after a dazzling green display of aurora borealis reaching as far as the south of England.
Enjoy.
FF plot thickens:
“need pm re lennoxtown
Want help proof reading a letter…re gghb etc.
Anyone clued up on that front please pm.”
[What?…….Reading?…..You’ll struggle there, Sammy]
——
“When done I suggest keeping it off board
Continually showing the enemy our hand allows them to take evasive action”
greendreamz:
Just for the sake of accuracy, and for no other reason, it was 25k, not 35k, that we paid the council for the rights of the airspace above the Eastern Necropolis. (I don’t know if the club was also charged for the airspace above Janefield St. though)
11 Nov 1994, Council Buildings and Properties Committee meeting minutes.
It’s at times like these I miss the Mitchell Library most.
Weeminger I dont think anyone condones or is anything but disgusted at the damage at fir park. I also think that its to the credit of the GB that they said they should have tried to police what was going on. It strikes me that celtic fans and the GB in particular are judged on a much higher standard of behaviour than anyone else in scotland. No surprise there then.
As for the GB’s silence – well what would you have them say? Continue to wage war on a club that has deserted them? Its pointless – the vast majority of the support are disgusted by the actions of celtic (with a few notable exceptions on this site). That doesnt imply guilt or if you think it does then the celtic board are guilty of incredible crimes against us.
67 Heaven you havent addressed my question – what behaviour exactly do you mean?
The campaign against the GB is reminiscint of the worst days of the cold war in soviet russia. Its quite remarkable that this has gone on relatively unchallenged. Its simply shameful that our club joined in on this.
We will never see the GB back while the current board incumbents remain. Then again you wont see around 20 to 25,000 other fans too.
i remember ohhhh about a month ago i posted on a subject about big jock, and that he said to some one after the EUROPEAN CUP FINAL, “thats the last time you will ever see that team playing together” or words to that affect, at the time i could not remember if it was Archie Mac Pherson, or Shankly, Jock said it to, i was reminded after in a conversation with my brother that it was MacPhearson, and that it was in his book, and he said, “and big Jock was true to his word, they never played together again”although a few in here doubted me and said they did play,THEY DIDNT, and for any lurking huns GIRUY.
Joe Filippis Haircut
12:44 on 10 January, 2014
Were you dehydrated?
Guilty?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25672182
GIRUY feckn idiots.
That article makes me yearn for those magical times. Growing up with Mr. Stein as the boss I took it all for granted. Heady days indeed. An old team in Glasgow are no more thanks to him. It must have been frozen in his shadow. HH.
NegAnon2
13:29 on
10 January, 2014
To be honest I’m not sure what I’d have them say, but I think a comment suggesting it was unfair on those not in the GB section of 111 to get sanctioned, might have at least indicated some concern for fellow fans not even remotely involved in the situation.
If I was asked to draw a conclusion from the situation I’d say that following the previous threat of removal and the meeting between the GB and club, they (the GB) must have given some kind of assurance about behaviour and those that tag onto them. This explains a) the statement by the GB following the events and b) the lack of statement following the sanction.
I would happily have somebody involved correct that.
Td67
I think they did play one or two more after Lisbon. Need to check though
For pure selfish amusement I dip into the ‘discussion board’ re. the RIFC Shares. here are today’s fun reading.
“The problem here is these funds are needed to pay running costs and not for future investment. In effect,investors would be asked to release funds just so things like the managers £820k per annum,etc. could still be paid. I don’t see many institutional Investors buying into this scenario and I don’t think the fans could raise the sums required. A sale of Murray Park may raise a reasonable amount.This would give temporary respite whilst effective cost cutting measures are put into effect. It is hard,though,to see a long term future for the PLC while it’s tied to its cash burning subsidiary.”
“30p is is too high if the value of the shares are going to be diluted buy a further share issue designed to increase equity at the club. A buisness has a value and share price is essentually that value divided by the number of shares. If there are more shares then the share price will decline.”
“The new club v old club debate Is totally irrelevant to this forum. Those both perpetuating and defending the ‘new club’ argument on here are clearly simply football fans looking for a bit of one upmanship on both sides. From an investor perspective this is a new company. That is significant as it materially affects the commerciality of the business eg access to credit, supplier terms, even costs of IPO. Wallace has taken a big step in admitting a need for austerity. Problem is it will not be easy to get rid of some of the surplus to requirements high earners without pay-offs. This assumes they won’t be able to command the same level of wage at another club. Every time Mccoist claims that trimming the playing staff budget will jeopardise the route to the top league it justs detracts further from his credibility as a manager.”
Ya gotta agree with the last statement, don’t ya? Please please let Fat Salary stay!
Marrakesh Express
Me too.
I thought Big Jock said that team would never be beaten by anyone in the future, hence he didn’t pick them very often and only in games they couldn’t lose.
tonydonnelly – they did play again – four months later, against Dynamo Kiev.
http://www.thecelticwiki.com/page/1967-09-20+Celtic+1+-+Dynamo+Kiev+2
Paul 67,
Another excellent article with thanks to Archie,
They say imitation is the most sincere form of Flattery. Never used to like SAF much but the more I hear the more I can warm to him, but only a tiny wee bit.
I never knew that SAF was in “Malpensa Airport Milan in 1970, in the aftermath of the European Cup Final there, amidst thousands of Celtic supporters”.
Truly every day is a school day.
Wow, thought I had heard it all. Celtic are now getting slated for the advertisement boarding’s.
With respect and no offence intended : Celtic Park is not a Amish conclave. ( No disrespect to the Amish people ) Its 2014; All clubs advertise for revenue, it does not necessary mean they agree, but as long as all the advertising parameters are in place, then fine, Even one of the last bastions, the Barcelona shirt is moving in that direction.
HH. always in Celtic.
PS : I suppose if someone was particularly offended by a particular advert then they would potentially have ground to report the owner under the OB act.
Archie macpherson celtic minded? He hides it well
A nicely written piece by the Shettleston man, virtually unique perspective
for a Scottish journalist who lived from Lisbon to Milan,to Seville.
Impossible if you are a football man not to be partial towards Celtic,
“We’re a’ Jock Tamson’s Bairns”.
Joe Filippis Haircut
I’m a long time lurker and rarely post but I can’t help but offer a fellow gout sufferer and allopurinol taker some sympathy. First diagnosed with gout in 1992 aged 38. Doc gave me allopurinol and told me it would bring on an attack for 3 days. He was right. Absolute agony. He also told me never to eat any kind of awful, liver, kidney etc.
Never had another serious attack until 2003 when I misread a menu and ate steak pie with a morsel of kidney in it. Have been careful ever since. The Battered Bunnet is spot on with the cherry juice.
Hope you get over your attack soonest.
Harryhoodsdug
Correct…the seeds of Rfc1872 death were sown in 67.
Marakesh express
Oh eye the doubting Thomas, see these holes in my hands, see these holes in my feet, see this hole in my side, see the mark of a crown of thorns, you may think all you want my friend, I KNOW, they NEVER played together, what part of that don’t you get mate? ask all yer wee anti board pals in the Brazen, lol, ;))
Somone mentioned Arthur Montford’s commentary earlier. I always remember this beaut from around the early 80’s. The scene is Ipox. Corner to Celtic, to be taken by Davie Provan. The commentary went along the lines of:
“Provan, Aitken, McAdam, Goal. 2-2”
That for me summed up Arthurs ability as a commentator!
Anyone else remember this little gem?
tonydonnellly67
You really are a clown.
Why don’t you give us all a break?
Dear Woman in Spar
Just one winning lottery ticket this week
Ta CSC
Celtic v Rangers 6-2
“This is turning into a rout”
Archie MacPherson in a saddened monotone
tonydonnelly67
13:31 on 10 January, 2014
i remember ohhhh about a month ago i posted on a subject about big jock, and that he said to some one after the EUROPEAN CUP FINAL, “thats the last time you will ever see that team playing together” or words to that affect, at the time i could not remember if it was Archie Mac Pherson, or Shankly, Jock said it to, i was reminded after in a conversation with my brother that it was MacPhearson, and that it was in his book, and he said, “and big Jock was true to his word, they never played together again”although a few in here doubted me and said they did play,THEY DIDNT, and for any lurking huns GIRUY.
Not quite right Tony. They played together one more time in what I think was the last game of the season in a 5 or 6 nil win against Clyde. Ronnie Simpson, if memory serves only played the first few minutes of the game.
I remember it as it was when my dad and his brothers used to stand at the middle of the terracing and us wee guys would all gather at the wee wall at the front. I don’t know why but I have a very clear memory of two events that day. One was two old guys talking about a youngster who had scored 6 for the reserves during the week…..a certain Kenny Dalglish, and the other was a fella getting lifted by the police, and his mate shouting to them, ” when can I see my pal?” The response from the policeman, “in court on Tuesday…” Not sure why I remember that, but great days.
Phyllis
I posted that team from an official European site 3 weeks ago, and charmers, did not play, Yogi played trust me.
Philbhoy
What’s with the name calling?
Bob LobLaw
13:56 on
10 January, 2014
I think Ronnie Simpson just came out for the warm up that day having had recurrent trouble with a shoulder injury. John Fallon played if I remember. 6-0 – Remember Bertie sitting on the ball?
Bob loblaw
They never played again.
The Johnatron
“What a chance McAdam – buries it”
Celtic v Sporting Lisbon 1983
tonyd
Behave yourself.