Today we have a guest writer, Archie Macpherson, Scotland’s most celebrated broadcaster. Archie started broadcasting for the BBC in the 1960s and was the authoritative voice of football commentaries, and comment, for decades thereafter. He was co-commentator for our first European Cup win and remains a regular newspaper columnist and TV contributor.
I had a brief conversation with Archie last month when he categorically stated that Jock Stein was best manager Scotland has ever produced was. Pleased, though I was, to hear this, in the light of accolades earned by Sir Alex Ferguson, I asked him if he could substantiate his claim.
These questions are enormously subjective but few have the breadth of perspective, not to mention the analytical capacity, to tackle this one properly. This is the article he offered to write for us on the subject:
Jock and Fergie, by Archie Macpherson
If there had been no Jock Stein there would have been no Sir Alex Ferguson. It may sound a contentious statement to make but even though it is tempting to play around with history according to your own beliefs and perceptions I would stand by that as a sound interpretation of the way the respective merits of these men can be set against each other.
It helps in this matter if you can lay aside the achievements of those men from the record books and instead consider their personalities and the context in which they plied their trade.
When Jock came to Celtic as manager in 9th March 1965, he fully understood from his past experience there as a player and coach that he would find a club desperate to achieve a commanding status in Scottish football. The frustration they felt only reflected that which their massive support similarly endured around that period. They were massive underachievers.
He also knew from his own background that his task would not simply be about selecting a team, then motivating them, but about radically overhauling the perception the public in general had about the club and which stemmed mainly from the constructs of the media.
It may be difficult for a current generation to fully comprehend this but Celtic then were simply perceived as bit players in a drama where the lead actor came from Govan and always took the curtain-calls. Stein changed all that. He took on the press-pack like he had been sent in from the city’s sanitation department to fumigate.
If you didn’t turn up on the dot for his press conferences then the door was slammed on your face no matter the size of your ego. His television interviews, unlike the passive posture of that likeable man his predecessor Jimmy McGrory, were often truculent and challenging. All of this concentrated the mind of those who wrote and spoke about Celtic. They would think twice about saying anything that might offend the big man. He was strengthening Celtic’s image and, as a by-product of that, securing the self-esteem within the playing staff which previously had been sadly lacking.
And where was Sir Alec at this time? He was watching, observing. I saw him sitting in the lounge of Malpensa Airport Milan in 1970, in the aftermath of the European Cup Final there, amidst thousands of Celtic supporters, which given his Rangers connections only indicated his deep interest in what Jock was doing.
Fergie to his credit was a learner. When he went to Old Trafford it was not to a club about which there was lack of public respect. It was initial lack of respect for himself which made him take up arms against his detractors. To go to a Fergie press-conference was to see a recreation of Jock at the height of his powers. And from being beside Jock in the dressing-room, and on the bench at Scotland games, he absorbed Jock’s handling of men which could range from wrath to wit. The so-called ‘hairdryer’ treatment Fergie handed out only simulated what Jock could do to make the walls of a dressing-room bulge when it got up his hump.
Where they differed enormously as men was that Jock did not harbour grudges in quite the same way as Fergie. Jock did have his difficulties with the BBC initially but never refused to deal with them. Fergie barred them for over a decade, then got an award from the same people. So I am suggesting that although you cannot compare the achievements made in entirely different footballing environments, Fergie served his apprenticeship in the Stein era by consequently adopting much of the big man’s methodology. Jock was the ice-breaker. Fergie was the follow up.
In that sense, as the one was indispensable to the success of the other, I rate Jock as the master of the two.
My thanks to Archie for his contribution.
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Was it no Guys Meadow in Cumbernauld?
Marrakesh Express:
The Motherwell game you refer to was played on Feb 10th, Celtic won 1 – 0 , Hughes scored and was subbed by Chalmers making that game possibly the very last game the Lions ‘really’ played together.
Fellow Tims,
I think the appreciation of Archie shown on here is very heartening for the blog. Because you supported or favoured Rangers does not mean you cannot write in a fair minded way or you are necessary a bad person.
Very simplistic I know, but nevertheless shows our ability to rise above tribal loyalty and un-necessary point scoring and name calling.
We are above pointless point scoring and name calling??????
HH.
Regarding the Lisbon Lions Last game, this might help.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I2gLbBEZ7_M&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DI2gLbBEZ7_M
Video evidence and everything:-)
Re Archie good Article regards Jock and Fergie
The comparisons of how they learned thro there own path is interesting,Jock was inspired and impressed by The Magyars and went to see them at a time when that sort of thing was not done.but good football men know when there is change afoot and can see how to implement it and this is what Jock done,hence the automatic turn around and impact Jock and his team had,on our youths in the late50s,the Pars,hibs for a summer and obviously ourselvers
Fergie was also willing to learn,fair play to him going to Milan.fergie also learned from jock about attention to detail,minutiae- eg Jim Leighton in jocks last game and his contact lenses-Whit dae ye mean ye didnae know he wore them
Archie was part of my childhood with Sportreel etc but his commentating to me was not as exciting as Arthur ‘Stramash”tenaciously does it’ montford.
When I think of both as commentators both were not a patch on David Francy imo,
but who was the commentator who said
‘without a doubt The European Cup is on its way to Glasgow’? at Lisbon I always forget
Hail hail
Tonyd does not make mistakes.
On the other hand
Celtic Programmes Online – CELTIC v DINAMO KIEV 1965/66
http://www.celticprogrammesonline.com
Spot the mistake
I’m off to chill out.
TonyD
Big Dan flying visit this weekend. Hes going to the piggie this evening… I may head over and catch up with him for a beer
Greenpinta
I agree with that….well said
HH
bearsden bob-i was there mate,all had no 9 on their shorts.
Well it makes a change Archie Macphearson and I getting it in the neck, gives big Peter and the Board a wee break, I knew it would work, lol, but I caught more than I thought, but if your there Paul67, ask Archie Macphearson why did he put that in his book, if it was wrong? Good god if I stay in here any longer I will be accused of being one of the gang who dropped the ball on resolution 12, that wasent me, and I doubt if Archie was involved either , hehehe. Asta le vista ———–> heading for the Oasis ;))
oops that link didn’t work
Spot the mistake
Celtic Programmes Online – CELTIC v DINAMO KIEV 1965/66
Wikipedia (never wrong) gives the 66/67 squad as the Lions plus John Fallon, Joe McBride, John Hughes, Willie O’Neill, Charlie Gallagher and Jim Brogan.
17 players for a season! That doesn’t allow you to fill your bench now unless it’s a Scottish Cup game.
OK. This is wikpedia I’m talking about so there may well have been dozens more in the squad.
Google
Celtic Programmes Online – CELTIC v DINAMO KIEV 1965/66
That’s my working day over!
No alcohol since last weekend so a wee glass of red this evening to wash down my carry in (Chinese)
Working tomorrow morning though.
Will check back in later, when my sides are no so sore!
FRom the official programme
Celtic v Dinamo Kiev
20 Sept 1967 at Celtic Park
THE TEAMS
GLASGOW CELTIC FC
Coach: Jock Stein.
Scorers: Lennox 62.
Team: Simpson, Craig, Gemmell, Murdoch, McNeill, Clark, Johnstone, Wallace, Chalmers, Auld, Lennox.
DINAMO KIEV
Coach: Victor A. MASLOV.
Scorer: Pusach 4, Bychevetz 29.
Team: Rudakov, Schegolkov, Sosnichin, Levchenko, Sabo, Krulikovsky, Turvanchik, Bychevetz, Medved, Serebrianikov, Pusach .
Layofftonyd CSC
Doc that,s good enough for me,if Bob Crampsey says that was the Lisbon Lions. TonyD is that good enough for you? Hail Hail Hebcelt
Doc
Charlie’s other important corner kick apart from Dunfermline Cup Final came against Vojvodina Novi Sad not against Dukla Prague.
TONY DONNELLY 1433
Wow,I didn’t realise that I was regarded as a guardian of the purity of the turf!
Does this mean that I’ve gone all mainstream and forelock-tugging? I hope not. Never been my style,that.
You keep posting away in yer own inimitable style,bud. Leave us to correct the wrong information that you provide and which may be taken as gospel by younger readers.
By the way,I noticed you used a full-stop in one of your posts earlier. At first I thought you may have an imposter as well as loads of stalkers.
Then I realised that you had inadvertently pressed the space-bar twice on yer iPad.
RTFM,bud.
Doc 14.50
cheers for that,I remember that Game,main stand being buit etc.good memories
HH
Haul yer wheest Happy New Year to you and yours. Gonna get in touch ref sat tv. Hail Hail Hebcelt
Granny Macs Bhoy
14:46 on 10 January, 2014
” He used to tell me he was sure that we would win the big cup again one day. He wasn’t right on that one …,”
Give him time.
When the FFP initiative reduces all those so called big teams to ruins, Celtic will be there to dominate Europe once again…vying with the likes of Vojvodina and Dukla Prague (in their away strip) accompanied by the warnings of Armageddon from the SMSM and their cries that Europe needs a strong Rangers
Hmmm I reckon the RFC shares may close below 30p today.
Not that meaningful overall but I would think the institutional investors will start pressuring for moves to be made that might get them a return on their investment.
Suck it up blog, TD got us all with his – why is everybody picking on me card, and then he aced it with his – I was only kidding all the time card.
Never, ever, seen that strategy before, well played son.
doc
Your video definitely proves it, and it was great to see big Jock sticking up for The Tic.
There was me hanging out to see the first 29.xx share transaction for Sevco and lo and behold, someone jumps all the way down to 28.00p .
At what point do they just shut them down?
eddieinkirkmichael
14:35 on 10 January, 2014
bamboo
14:12 on
I remember well his performance on Scotland Tonight during the administration of deedco. He was hurting very much that night.
“….”…………..”………..”””………….
He was. Hurting as a newt IIRC.
Sorry Haul=Houl Heb celt
Hun share price now below 30p. I hope they kept they gingies!
HH
Big Nan:
not sure if this is 100% true but I thought it interesting nonetheless…
The council houses in Janefield, Kerrydale and Dalriada Streets were demolished and the residents re-housed because the new Stadium blocked out their light and interfered with their TV receptions. Council tax payers footed the bill for this as the land was sold to Celtic Plc for a penny.
The cost to the council in terms of resettlement grants to the 300 or so families living in the houses, the demolition of said houses and ground clearance was conservatively estimated at £1.25 million.
The Legal and Estates Committee comprising thirteen councillors met to approve the sale of ground (the three streets) to Celtic. There were 11 Labour Party councillors, one SNP, and one Tory. Both the Tory and SNP councillors demanded that their fellow councillors in the Committee state their allegiances, shareholding, season ticket status, etc….. The meeting was suspended and the decision on the sale was passed to a full council meeting (all 102 Glasgow District councillors).
All but 11 of those 102 councillors were Labour Party councillors. Those 11 put forward the same motion for disclosure of share holding and season ticket status before the vote was to be taken. The then leader of GDC, Pat Lafferty made the ruling that these details did not have to be revealed. The vote was taken and the full council decided overwhelmingly to sell the land to Celtic for a penny.
ps. This is not a criticism of Celtic. They behaved the way I would expect any company to behave. If you can get the council to help then fair enough.
Mea Culpa 15:08 on 10 January, 2014
There was me hanging out to see the first 29.xx share transaction for Sevco and lo and behold, someone jumps all the way down to 28.00p .
At what point do they just shut them down?
………………………………….
When they reach 18.72p or is it 18.73p, or maybe 16.90p. As long as they shut them down that’s all that matters.
http://s811.photobucket.com/user/leftytwoguns1/media/CHAZXZZZZZZZZ_zps286dd52f.jpg.html
A good one…
ACGR 19.67 would seem like a rather poetic price….
Celtic Park – 2014
Cadizzy
I like Archie AND I like Arthur’s jackets. So stick that in yer pipe and smoke it.
100,000 Sevco shares sold for £28k.
Penny shares probably, meaning someone “important” is baling out!
HH
Latest comment on hun’s share site;
“And yet it seems reasonable investors do believe pretty much what is on here as that’s another 2p or 6% off the share price.
I’m starting to get seriously worried by the decline. Yes football clubs don’t make money, but it seems that market sentiment is approaching the point of no return. This is likely to be a penny share soon.”
Oh dear!
HH
Re the discussion on Lisbon Lions and if they played again after May 1967. Let’s leave the last word on it to Archie MacPherson in his book, Jock Stein.
Chapter Fifteen. On this subject Archie says ” However, they did play together again, no fewer than eight times, and were beaten once, by Dynamo Kiev four months later.”
Anyone able to provide an update on the situation of the Amsterdam Bhoys?
Not heard anything for a while.