Today our parliament will go through the motions of debating how to criminalise football fans in innovative new ways, not related to prejudice, with the outcome preordained; the Bill will become law. The lines have been drawn on this debate and the country is set for a long and messy campaign.
The various calls for clarification are unlikely to be satisfied as consistency on this subject will be impossible to find. At Celtic, direct or indirect references to the IRA, already deemed unacceptable by the club, manager and most of the support, are likely to lead to prosecution. I would like to see political references removed from football but not at the cost of random criminalisation. It remains to be seen how successful attempts to prosecute fans for transgressing on this subject before the law has been passed will be.
Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.
Football is going to get messy in the months ahead as positions are so entrenched in ‘the songs debate’ there is simply no possibility of agreement. While it may only be a small minority who want to continue political chanting at Celtic, they remain Celtic fans and as entitled to establish their rights as anyone else, including Neil Lennon or Jock Stein. All we can do, as a club and support, is look for common ground amid the turmoil that lies ahead.
Today is your last chance to buy Paul Larkin’s new book, Wim’s Tims-The best thing to hit Scottish football in 10 years, with a 25% discount. Enter code: COUNTDOWN to qualify.
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These damned Christmas lunches and drinks don’t half get in the way of CQN you know. Playing catch-up now.
Canalamar – If the Christmas party ain’t all that, I’ll pop down. It’s only a few stops. I won’t be traditionally “hooped”, being a work do and all, but will have a t-shirt with green and black hoops to show my allegiance. I do hope to make it, but as a “bum-barer” I of course couldn’t turn down free drink on the company dime. I may or may not show that credential depending on how much free booze I’ve consumed…
stephenpollock says: 14 December, 2011 at 18:16
Goodnight from a rather dismal Bangalore where at least they seperate sport from politics….Adults need not worry about illicit chanting which is the folly of fools and kids :-)
Nah, just need to worry about bombs: http://www.cricketcountry.com/cricket-articles/Bomb-attack-at-Chinnaswamy-was-to-avenge-Pak-cricketers-exclusion-from-IPL-/8893
Nowhere is perfect, not Scotland, not India.
David Prowse says: 14 December, 2011 at 16:09 , from jocky bhoy says: 14 December, 2011 at 16:01
“If you’ve got an IRA sympathiser to wind people up and sing these provocative songs. You can see, it’s just them reacting against the Scottish establishment, and annoying the other team. It’s not because they believe it, or even have any terribly great interest in the IRA.” Fergus mc cann 1998 on rebel songs.
Ok Mr Prowse, struggling to see your point: it seems to me that McCann is saying that these songs started because of agent provocateurs and most of the fans singing them see them as a wind-up and unimportant to those singing them, so no big deal to not sign them right?
Selectively quoting a man who was undeniably against these songs being sung at Celtic Park just to suit your point? Well done, that’s certainly not lazy. Disingenuous, but not lazy. But even in the part of the quote you selected, it seems to me he’s saying there is no real rationale for singing them.
BTW Thanks for making me look out your selected McCann quote, here’s a fuller version which I think reinforces my position and frankly blows yours out of the water:
There are people who will try to appeal to the extremist attitude, this hide-bound attitude. One opponent [of my regime] was quoted as saying, ‘This is an Irish-Catholic club’ – he hoped to get this head-banger group as his support, then point to our anti-bigotry campaign and say, ‘How dare they tell us how to behave. We can sing the songs we want.’ But he got a very bad response from the majority of supporters.
“Maybe a hundred years ago or so, I would have a connection with Ireland, but, as you well know, the direct Irish connection [for Scottish people] of the past two or three generations is negligible. It’s a fertile ground – these headbangers who drink in the pub all day and then go off to away games at places like Aberdeen – if you’ve got an IRA sympathiser to wind people up and sing these provocative songs. You can see, it’s just them reacting against the Scottish establishment, and annoying the other team. It’s not because they believe it, or even have any terribly great interest in the IRA.”
Cheers.
weeminger says:
15 December, 2011 at 09:58
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I said PL was taking a cool £mill of Celtic fans money, purely from a round figure perspective because, unlike you…I won’t be sourcing out ‘actual’ figures from the PLC because these figures come, as presented ?
PL, was quoted recently as saying, he would put his bonus for the last two years on the back-burner for the time being ? Bonus’s for what ? Presiding over a hun 3, possible 4 iar ?
You can believe what the PLC present as your, perogative.
I wouldn’t believe a word any of them say and, that is my perogative.
As I said previously….the fickle pendulum is swinging in ‘our’ immediate history, tonight is the next port of call……
Hail! Hail!
Stringer Bell says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:11
I would assume you will be off to form a version of “FC Celtic of Glasgow” then Kev?
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Why should Celtic FC change it’s name to be rid of a bunch of charlatans whose life-blood is the, cash put in by Celtic fans ?
If you don’t mind being duped by the said charlatans, you go ahead M8!
Kev jungle
Just one wee thing, stop worrying about the orcs they are not the priority, Celtic are.
The day that I hate the huns more than I love Celtic is the day I’ll chuck it. But I know that day will never come.
Not wanting to Aluko in here but Peter Lawell is grossly overpaid compared to Celtic PLC turnover never mind results from the team.
It has been a contradiction for a long time that PL gets a bonus depending on how much he saves in player purchase and wage negotiation. This is not in the interest of the team as he is playing poker with the salaries of prospective signings for his own reward.
Good morning from a wet and miserable Manchester.
1-1 draw tonight.
BlantyreKev – Hail Hail to the Kano Foundation says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:10
I struggle to take Kev Jungle seriously. He comes on with tweaks to his blog name suggesting he’s the uber Celt, in a style of writing almost Kojo -esque. Not riddles, but so overloaded with punctuation it looks deliberate. And always goes into blog saturation mode. There is a name for that type of blog contribution.
Sorry if that’s off the mark Kev, maybe we’ll meet and I’ll be embarrassed, but I reckon I’ve got you sussed.
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You may well suss me if, you knew me when I lived in Blantyre on, Broompark Rd direct across from, John Ogilvie chapel ?
I moved away from Blantyre 17 years ago.
Hail! Hail!
Question Bhoys: and think about it first.
You watch a Celtic 1-0 victory over Berwick Rangers in the Scottish Cup on the Saturday, and then you watch a Rangers defeat 0-1 against Hamilton Accies, Which result gives you the most pleasure?
KevJungle – “Lennons Lions Get Ready To ROAR!!!” says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:19
Stringer Bell says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:11
I would assume you will be off to form a version of “FC Celtic of Glasgow” then Kev?
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Why should Celtic FC change it’s name to be rid of a bunch of charlatans whose life-blood is the, cash put in by Celtic fans ?
If you don’t mind being duped by the said charlatans, you go ahead M8!
—————————————————————————–
You have missed the point, that was probably your intention.
Cletic FC should not change its name.
You are so unhappy with the clubs ownership that my assumption is you would take the path of the Man Utd fans who struck out on their own due to the Glazier takeover, forming FC UNited of Manchester.
I cant understand why you wouldnt be trying to do the same, you are so unhappy with the club as you have posted at length.
Kittoch says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:20
“PL gets a bonus depending on how much he saves in player purchase and wage negotiation.” Is that written down, or is that just your assumption?
hamiltontim says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:20
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I have not and, NEVER will stop loving Celtic FC but, recently I have become dis-enchanted.
Surely thats allowed ?
Hail! Hail!
‘Cletic FC should not change its name.’
or on the other hand maybes ;/)
In case you’ve missed it, those intrepid forensic types over on RTC feel they have found out something else interesting about a certain under-the-radar entrepreneur.
Apparently documents link businesses in which a person with the initials CW has been involved to other businesses in which a “different” person with the initials CW has been involved.
I say “different” because Companies House seems to have got itself in a wee muddle and to have two different dates of birth for these captains of industry, one in 1971 and one in 1969. It could just be a coincidence. Or a technicality.
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan supports Kano 1000 says:
15 December, 2011 at 09:41
Great post
Kittoch says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:23
Question Bhoys: and think about it first.
Second result would certainly be a very unexpected pleasure.
Although I would not be watching it.
hamiltontim says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:20
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My unhappiness stems from a lack of trust from ‘our’ leaders.
In a democracy I would be allowed that. Surely ?
Hail! Hail!
Kittoch says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:23
Question Bhoys: and think about it first.
You watch a Celtic 1-0 victory over Berwick Rangers in the Scottish Cup on the Saturday, and then you watch a Rangers defeat 0-1 against Hamilton Accies, Which result gives you the most pleasure?
I would expect us to beat Berwick so would be pleased that we did. But I would also expect them to beat Hamilton so an unexpected defeat would bring more pleasure – plus our main rival for the cup would be out.
Stringer Bell says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:11
‘I would assume you will be off to form a version of “FC Celtic of Glasgow” then Kev?’
I think when we learn that the Celtic Board are supporting a plan to let the newco huns straight into the SPL that might well happen.
Perhaps the board know that, and realising they are going to lose an element of the support are in the process of distancing the Club from ‘all that Irish tosh’ to make it more attractive to a different demographic.
Like Swann did with Hibs.
Time will tell.
weeminger:
That is the basis of his contract, as advised by an insider.
hamiltontim says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:20
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When the downsizing started, I decided nah!
I thought….why should I put my hard-earned money into the coffers of tight fisted billionaires at the expense of ny family ? That will NEVER happen!
I mean, how many hun iar will it take before the majority of Celts begin to realise that, the DD/PL/ Balance-sheet era…… is NOT working ?
Hail! Hail!
Bhoys
Thanks for the replies re the Celtic win Rangers lose scenario.
I was getting a little concerned that it was only me that sometimes enjoys a rangers defeat more than a Celtic win, clearly in certain circumstances.
hamiltontim
I apologise for the post @10:38!
Typo!
Hail! Hail!
KevJungle – “Lennons Lions Get Ready To ROAR!!!” says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:38
hamiltontim says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:20
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When the downsizing started, I decided nah!
I thought….why should I put my hard-earned money into the coffers of tight fisted billionaires at the expense of ny family ? That will NEVER happen!
I mean, how many hun iar will it take before the majority of Celts begin to realise that, the DD/PL/ Balance-sheet era…… is NOT working ?
Hail! Hail!
I let them do 9 and still never gave up! I cried tears of Joy when Wim’s team beat St Mirren to stop the rot
Stringer Bell says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:24
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I apologise for the delay M8!
Typo!
Anyway, moving along……
When the downsizing started, I decided nah!
I thought….why should I put my hard-earned money into the coffers of tight fisted billionaires at the expense of ny family ? That will NEVER happen!
I mean, how many hun iar will it take before the majority of Celts begin to realise that, the DD/PL/ Balance-sheet era…… is NOT working ?
Hail! Hail!
ny = my
My boss is Peter Principle says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:47
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I’m quite sure that, Wims team beat St Johnstone but hey, what do I know ?
For those bhoys living in Italy tonight’s game is on Italia1 station from 8.55 Italian time. Probably will be able to get it on satellite as well as I think Italia1 is free to air.
KevJungle – “Lennons Lions Get Ready To ROAR!!!” says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:50
My boss is Peter Principle says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:47
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I’m quite sure that, Wims team beat St Johnstone but hey, what do I know ?
Yes you are correct a wee typo
ernie lynch says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:36
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If I had said that then, The Bhoys Of The Old Pitch Fork Brigade would have been on my front lawn by now!
Hail! Hail!
Celtic Beat Inter Milan 2-1 in European Cup Final.
Following week Rangers lose 1-0 to Bayern Munich in Cup winners cup final.
Which result gives you more pleasure? :-)
Hail Hail
Estadio
KevJungle. “bhoys hoops irish 1967”
What’s with the, pause mid sentence and, obsession with, rangers?
Kittoch says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:38
If that is factually correct then that is worrying.
I was not having a dig at you by the way. I completely sympathise with those that think the board have questions to answer but I want to see those questions raised from hard fact, not conjecture and hearsay as is so often the case.
A simple question that seemingly has never been asked of the board by shareholders – “We have had limited success on the field and in real terms off the field. Could the board therefore clarify the award of bonuses to Peter Lawell. In what areas has he been meeting targets?” We don’t need to know precisely what the targets are, just what areas they are in. If the board were to say “he gets an award if the team win the league but a lesser award if we finish second and no award for finishing below second” we might say that’s the easiest bonus in history but at least we’d know one facet of it.
I’m sure your source is gilt-edged, if it’s somebody that’s seen the contract then it’s got to be given some credence, otherwise it’s still second hand (although that’s not to say I’m casting it aside).
Cheers for the reply.
My boss is Peter Principle
If, PL had any principles would he have signed the documentation that leave’s us/Celtic fans as, sitting ducks for the cops ?
celticinthesun says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:55
KevJungle. “bhoys hoops irish 1967″
What’s with the, pause mid sentence and, obsession with, rangers?
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Eh ?
Ernie
It’s unfair of you to link the “Irish tosh” jibe to the Celtic board. It is not their phrase and never has been.
The current leaders of the business side of the club consistently defend our Irish identity. Even the ones who have no personal connection to Ireland, such as Brian Wilson, do this.
Why, if they wanted to take things in a Swann-like direction, would they take steps such as having the players wear special shirts to commemorate An Gorta Mór? It’s a statement of recognition that the birth and existence of the football club is linked to that tragedy. That link cannot be broken. No one who loves Celtic, whether they are people of Irish origin or not, wants it to be broken.
KevJungle – “Lennons Lions Get Ready To ROAR!!!” says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:38
hamiltontim says:
15 December, 2011 at 10:20
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When the downsizing started, I decided nah!
I thought….why should I put my hard-earned money into the coffers of tight fisted billionaires at the expense of ny family ? That will NEVER happen!
I mean, how many hun iar will it take before the majority of Celts begin to realise that, the DD/PL/ Balance-sheet era…… is NOT working ?
Hail! Hail!
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Actually the highest percentage of what you pay goes to budding millionaires not billionaires, by that I mean the players.
Their wages reflect the inflated player wage market. Celtic’s job is to get the best they can in that market at a price the club can afford.
The recent hun inar came from a combination of two factors – the affordable wage policy Celtic followed and the unaffordable one Rangers followed, the one that seems to have got them in an ever deepening hole.
At least Celtic will be around to contest current and future titles so you can look forward to quite a few iars for Celtic. I do.
jhilday
I am not on as much as I used to be.
Caught your last post.
What happened to you?
I hope you are ok!!
Auld Neil Lennon heid 09:50
“dallasnomore says:
15 December, 2011 at 06:48
Auld Heid 22.22
Your suggestion that all the interested Celtic parties should get together to hammer out a solution is as ludicrous as it is dishonest.
You are skilfully moving our argument away from my original point; the nature of the UEFA charge as opposed to the far wider issues around yesterday’s Bill.
My point remains the same. The Board colluded with the authorities to have us ‘done’ in Europe. And people like you encouraged this.
=====================
“Tripe! ”
Auld Heid. Your one word reply, in prefence to any attempt at a coherent argument, adequately sums up the bogus nature of your pathetic defence of the indefensible Board behaviour of the recent past. Shame on you!