Today our parliament will go through the motions of debating how to criminalise football fans in innovative new ways, not related to prejudice, with the outcome preordained; the Bill will become law. The lines have been drawn on this debate and the country is set for a long and messy campaign.
The various calls for clarification are unlikely to be satisfied as consistency on this subject will be impossible to find. At Celtic, direct or indirect references to the IRA, already deemed unacceptable by the club, manager and most of the support, are likely to lead to prosecution. I would like to see political references removed from football but not at the cost of random criminalisation. It remains to be seen how successful attempts to prosecute fans for transgressing on this subject before the law has been passed will be.
Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.
Football is going to get messy in the months ahead as positions are so entrenched in ‘the songs debate’ there is simply no possibility of agreement. While it may only be a small minority who want to continue political chanting at Celtic, they remain Celtic fans and as entitled to establish their rights as anyone else, including Neil Lennon or Jock Stein. All we can do, as a club and support, is look for common ground amid the turmoil that lies ahead.
Today is your last chance to buy Paul Larkin’s new book, Wim’s Tims-The best thing to hit Scottish football in 10 years, with a 25% discount. Enter code: COUNTDOWN to qualify.
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TTTT
Cheers big fella…and on that note I’m outta here!
Soal @ 23:06 – ha ya big fecker! LMFAO
It was in Scotland and I wasn’t very comfortable. Nuff said.
TTTT
hamiltontim @ 22:34
Correct conduct and manners are the key, and part of the gift of Celtic, you mentioned handed down to us.
It’s a pity some regular posters, don’t recognise that this site is lightly moderated, and abuse the privilege, and other
Celtic fans.
Anyway
Last day of being 43 the morrow
Take care
——————-forster————————
matthews—wanyama——-dan—–mulgrew
———brown——–ki——–kayal———–
commons/stokes–samaras———–mccourt
tommytwiststommyturns Kano 1000 says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:13
hamiltontim @ 22:45
—
I reached that point many years ago. What brought it to me was my older brother asking me about the frothing orcs being genuinely wound up and going out to chib someone because of what was being sung. My response was along the lines of: aye, but they’d do that anyway – filth does as filth will.
Yet there was an undeniable truth to what he was saying, in that if I go out of my way to offend people, don’t be particularly surprised when someone decides to shut me up in the only way they know how. And then extend that ‘shutting up’ to some innocent guy walking down the street simply wearing a Celtic scarf.
Yes, the fault may lie in the fact that filth indeed does as filth will however, in my mind the provocation was perhaps an unnecessary winding up that could otherwise have been avoided.
But note: this is not about appeasement, but about singing songs simply to wind people up.
If you take the orcs ‘add ons’ those 2 songs become nil
Auld Neil Lennon heid says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:16
bournesouprecipe says:
14 December, 2011 at 22:59
Just to clarify what I said a few minutes ago – I also think “Ooh ah” should be on a ‘naughty list’. I just also happen to think that if somebody did end up in the dock that they could plead ignorance to the meaning.
After all it’s just as likely to mean “Resident Advisor” than anything else.
Auld heid your faith in the Glasgow police to act fairly and present stats in a forensic manner is touching and naive, did you see what they did with the last lot they produced?
Sectarian aasault in Bridgeton classed as Celtic Park wasn’t it?
The police were on a mission to demonize the GB and the Board were watching with glee IMHO
Zbyszek – well said mate, as ever. I hope Martin has a great time on his birthday with his lovely family around him….and a few voddies!
L
TTTT
donegalbhoy67 says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:21
——————-forster————————
matthews—wanyama——-dan—–mulgrew
———brown——–ki——–kayal———–
commons/stokes–samaras———–mccourt
Careful with that line up as it is rather offensive……….
pauloantony says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:23
That was my thoughts too.
Honestly, do they have any songs that have not been corrupted with their very own brand of putrefaction?
weeminger says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:23
Yup I got that angle on first reading. What a devious mind you have ;)
bournesouprecipe
dunno much about yer man Bankier
hope he does a fine job
but folk sayin not heard a peep from him
you got hopes for him ?
think he’ll help drive us on to bigger n better ?
Is this legislation not the equivalent of tying up the swings?
what evidence do the Police have that there is a direct link between us singing a song about something offensive to somebody and said somebody commiting a crime? Should they not just have said Celtic can’t win any games any more and be done with it?
Presumably every football supporter in the land is now under scrutiny and it is not just us? Hearts for their hun repertoire, Aberdeen for their variety show, Motherwell who also hate Neil Lennon.
If we stop singing these songs, does that mean we get invited to the Burns nights?
So Europa League tomorrow, wish I was over in Italy for it. Think we might just do it as there would be no better time to record an overdue away European victory.
Wouldn’t be too confident if Celtic only needed a draw but you never know.
It’s a shame that in the week of the last European group match, football is not being discussed. I have no real issue with trying to rid hatred from any walk of life but now the bold Alex has dealt with football which is only 33% of the problem what are his plans to deal with 67% of the bigotry problem.
Can we look forward to a march free summer?
It seems, from a very quick scan of the blog, that a lot of Celtic fans are not going to support Celtic any more.
Good luck to you. Is this your “FC Celtic of Glasgow’ moment?
what is the squad for tomorrow night lads?
matthews, ledley commons and loovens all out injured
what about suspensions?
checked the bbc, no squad (although the last europa game ha both rogne and blackman named)
samaras to get a goal or two tomorrow night, and we wont be able to sing!!!!
I think Matthews is in the hoose!!!
A guy on snyde tonight says 4 years for carrying a knife, 5 years for singing ‘offensive’ songs
Big Nan says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:25
I said weekly because I do not trust them and I said make someone responsible for publishing and answering questions.
Now getting the mechanism established will be difficult but demanding that it is puts the police in a spot.
Their job is to uphold the law, not the bits that suit their agenda. Make them publsih evidence they are doing the former.
What reason could they possibly give to deny the demand? Trust us?
Doing so would be a trust building measure but the suggestion puts the responsibility in their court.
Minceyheidman says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:26
i suppose so.
LMAO
Zbyszek
23yr old Robert Lewandowski
any good ?
antrimkev, Feregus would have spoken out a long long long time ago to the fans, the Scottish Government and the Polis. We would not be in this situation if he was around. Mind, some fans booed him for being a wee bit deep pocketed and short armed. I’d gladly give him another 9 million if he came back and made a similar step change. Bhoys against bigotry, the charter, letters to fans, all important in making Celtic park what it was. Open communication which demonised him but made the club better. Unfortunately the current lot seem content to hide behind their painted smiles.
Kevtic says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:31
There seems to be a genuine will amongst the political hierarchy to rid the country of the perceived blight of sectarianism and I make no apology for the use of the word ‘perceived’ as it is only the perception that they do not like, not the sectarianism itself. To this end is where the marches must be drawn.
Shame game? What shame game? Where was the shame, in comparison to allowing an openly sectarian organisation to continue year after year to parade through our streets to the vast cost to the taxpayer? Where is the indignation towards such a base organisation? It simply isn’t there. Why?
Is there no political will to tackle the OO simply because they don’t appear, to the outsider, to be anything more than a marching band with some drunken, erm, ‘revellers’ in tow? The sinister motives of the marchers and such rabble that follow (follow) them are unknown ergo are not the embarrassment to this country that they should be.
Perhaps this perception needs to be changed.
Stringer Bell, If the folk that say they won’t support Celtic anymore follow through, does that mean we will not suffer any issues on the political front?
TopCorner
I was being facetious ;-) – it’s the lack of a peep, that’s worrying me too.
I posted yesterday it’s a sad day when deposed Directors such as Michael Kelly, are handling the PR war.
Ian Bankier is a corporate mover and shaker, not what we need in the heat of what should be a verbal barrage of support, for our support
especially over the UEFA fine.
We need to hear the voice of Celtic, speaking loud clear and at length, even if it’s in private with TSA and The Celtic trust et all.
Mullet and Co
Have no idea mate!
From all the withdrawals of support we may find out soon though.
Bhoys , haven’t posted for a while but love reading all your posts. But right now It feels like the club I have worshiped for 35 years is no longer the same club. It seems the heart is being ripped out of the club and it’s making me feel that the very reason we ( wife & 5 sons ) love Celtic, is the very reason we now feel we are not welcome. We are a republican minded family and loved the whole ethos that has surrounded the club for years, ie , Irish rebel songs in the pubs, clubs ect. No harm done to any other individual ( I have never heard of anyone being assaulted by music ) just great Craic. But now it seems there are a lot of people out there and on cqn that want that stopped. For the record I don’t think we should sing the words IRA at cp but we should be allowed to sing anything else if we so choose. We spend thousands every year supporting Celtic and have traveled all over Europe with them and love the way we conduct ourselves and leave the cities we visit knowing that we have spread the word of Celtic FC and converted them to, if not supporters , then friends of the club. Today is a very very sad day, but it’s been coming now for a while, as a few people have said we can’t afford to go to cp and wonder if we are going to be arrested for celebrating, in song, where Celtic came from and it’s heritage, and even non Irish songs will be deemed offensive by some people and some so called Celtic supporters. If the likes of us stop going and the GB leave ( banned ) then Celtic park will be a very quite place indeed. So we must stop this ethnic cleansing of our club and remember , be carefull what you wish for, because if it comes through in this case Celtic will become just another ordinary club with no heart and no world wide support with world wide outlets, ie, Irish pubs, clubs, and centres.
dirtymac says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:07
Dead right about Fulham. They had maybe 5,000 diehards before Al-Fayed got involved. About the same as Brentford and Orient.
Nice people, lovely ground, but in a false position. Where I am is equidistant between there and Chelsea’s ground. If you ever see a Fulham
scarf etc, even these days, it’s a blue moon rarity.
Hail, hail
dirtymac – as others have posted on here before, we don’t have to sing anything for THEM to be offended by us. Our very presence in this country and the fact that we breathe the same air as them is viewed as justification for attacking our fans.
Whether it’s the awful, senseless murder of young Mark Scott or a fan outside a chipshop being shot with a crossbow after a Scottish Cup Final that they won, it doesn’t matter what we sing. The term perma-Ragers is well founded.
The truth of where we are with the songs debate is spelled out in hamiltontim’s post. We can argue/debate all day about the difference between the songs relating to the Easter Rising and the period of the Troubles, but it doesn’t matter a jot to the people who have just passed this legislation and the politicised police force who will enforce it.
The Celtic fanbase, without meaningful support from the people running our club, have just lost a massive PR battle and yet again have been lumped in with arguably the most poisonous football supporters anywhere on this planet. Check out Newsnow Celtic to see how far and wide this negative crap goes.
Our movement, as TB called us, needs to lick its wounds and move on, but it’s difficult to win the battle for hearts and minds when our board roll over too easily and others decide to “sing what we want”.
HH
TTTT
It would appear that I have this daft notion of requiring some rest and recuperation.
Pain in the neck, but needs must, so I bid you all a very good night.
Up the Hathor :-)
Mullet and Co says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:37
couldnt agree more
Fergus was a hard nosed wee git and wouldnt have taken any of this.
if we were under surveillance for the ra chants, fergus would have told us that – lawell didnt, but thats all to do with him and the green brigade – the GB have made a fool out of this board a couple of times with their banners etc and it was payback time
i really do believe that lawell has let us take a hit over a personal vendetta with the GB
i think he was going to let the blame lie at the GB’s door and watch Celtic fans get rid of them, a job he is in the process of trying to do.
but there is a lot of smart cookies on all the websites that called lawells hand on this
dirtymac, There are two possible answers to the Orange Order question.
1. The Polis and the SNP dont mind the Orange march
2. They don’t see a link to public disroder and arrests and the Orange March.
I was going to say I’d like to see stats of arrests during and after and Orange March but these are likely to be for crossing the line or shouting obsenities at the marchers. I would say there will be minimal disorder due to the established policing methods in place and the intransigence amongst the decent community to be around when these displays take place.
Also what is the cost of Policing a march versus a football match? Do the Orange Order pay the polis or do they still ply them with drink on the morning of the march by way of payment?
If we apply the methodology of this new legislation to the orange March, we would need to go and beat our wives and stab a few rangers supporters to make any changes. … Or have the AOH fined and embarassed on a number of occassions for inappropriate marching and singing. Thye would then impose legislation to even things up?
“Islam Feruz was the best player on the pitch”
http://www.chelseafc.com/page/LatestNews/0,,10268~2547952,00.html
Top Corner, Robert Lewanowski is a very good player. Was linked with Celtic 2 years ago. Is he again linked? Would cost too much.
SffS
TopCorner says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:51
“Islam Feruz was the best player on the pitch”
http://www.chelseafc.com/page/LatestNews/0,,10268~2547952,00.html
against doncaster reserves?
well done him
tommytwiststommyturns Kano 1000 says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:47
Aarg, saw this after posting.
I did say that it was with regards to singing them purely to wind people up. I know some orcs who would otherwise be happy to have a chat and a beer with me until neither of our legs worked but would just as quick clock me one part way through such a session if I was of a mind to wind him up with such songs. I would give as good as I got, but cannot say the same for many other Ghood Ghuys I know.
Bearing in mind the alcohol involved and the easy manipulation of emotions that this brings, it would perhaps be expedient not to purposely go out of ones way to provoke an orc with a bee in his bunnet (and a keg down his throat).
Is this appeasement? I don’t know – most likely.
Going out to deliberately provoke/wind up drunk people just isn’t what I’m about.