Today our parliament will go through the motions of debating how to criminalise football fans in innovative new ways, not related to prejudice, with the outcome preordained; the Bill will become law. The lines have been drawn on this debate and the country is set for a long and messy campaign.
The various calls for clarification are unlikely to be satisfied as consistency on this subject will be impossible to find. At Celtic, direct or indirect references to the IRA, already deemed unacceptable by the club, manager and most of the support, are likely to lead to prosecution. I would like to see political references removed from football but not at the cost of random criminalisation. It remains to be seen how successful attempts to prosecute fans for transgressing on this subject before the law has been passed will be.
Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.
Football is going to get messy in the months ahead as positions are so entrenched in ‘the songs debate’ there is simply no possibility of agreement. While it may only be a small minority who want to continue political chanting at Celtic, they remain Celtic fans and as entitled to establish their rights as anyone else, including Neil Lennon or Jock Stein. All we can do, as a club and support, is look for common ground amid the turmoil that lies ahead.
Today is your last chance to buy Paul Larkin’s new book, Wim’s Tims-The best thing to hit Scottish football in 10 years, with a 25% discount. Enter code: COUNTDOWN to qualify.
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^^ and with that, I do indeed, once and for all, bid you all goodnight :-)
Trying to stay out of all this songs nonsense as it never achieves anything to have celts fighting with each other.The whole things a bit silly but is driven I suppose by a desire on behalf of elements of the scottish media/police/establishment to be able to play the “old firm” card.Ones as bad as the other etc.
Now i will digress slightly and tell of in intersting article in yesterdays Irish Times which is indirectly related to the topic as it involves irish fighting and singing.
The battle at Frederickburg during the American Civil War in 1862 saw a tragic and brave attempt by the “fighting 69th” which was an Irish/Irish American regiment from New York charging uphill to try and take a confederate vantage point (ironically the confederate defenders were mainly Irish also and both sides contained members of the Fenians or Irish Republican Brotherhood who had gone to America to gain military experience to bring back use against the British,The “69th” commander was Thomas Francis Meahger)
They started the day with 1600 men and ended it with less than 300.When the battle finished that night an attempt was made to raise morale by the singing of “Ireland Boys Hurrah” with its rousing chorus of “”Here’s dear old Ireland! Good old Ireland! Ireland boys, hurrah!””The song was taken up many along the banks of the river that night and again ironically was sung by both sides as a large percentage of the soldiers were either Irish of of Irish descent.
Of course they probably went out to try and kill each other the next day
The song was written by T D Sullivan who also wrote “God Save Ireland” which was an unofficial anthem until the Soldiers Song was officialy recognised as such.
Mr Sullivan was an interseting man,his grandson was Kevin O’Higgins first minister for justice of the Irish Free State who on the 8th Dec 1922 ordered the executions (without trial) of four prominent republican prisoners (one from each province) Rory O’Connor,Liam Mellowes,Dick Barrett and Joe McKelvey.Rory O’Connor was actually Kevin O’Higgins best man at his wedding a year earlier,Callous stuff.O’Higgins was executed himself in 1927 by an IRA hit squad.
All very sad
Anyway where were we.
Oh yeah arguing about songs
Dublin Noelbhoy says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:42
i agree and i disagree
i too enjoy the songs but its not just the songs i love. I love supporting celtic, songs or no songs.
It’s not just the songs that hold celtic and ireland together it’s the fans.
Now lots of people are saying they’ll never watch celtic play again blah blah blah……. and i think those people are either
A. all talk
B. only support celtic for songs
or C. idiots
this is just my opinion and i am sorry if this offends anyone
okay with that over let’s thrash udinese
SFA werent interested in the illicit singing bit, would have made them look foolish otherwise if they had attempted anything after spouting of bile fom the huns over the years……… nothing orffensive was heard against hibs and nothing to report………..meanwhile ever ready eddie suggests to PL WHATS NEXT MOVE…..PL by this time has had enough ….eddie see that filming .you stll got it…great can you send it to eufa cos that shower a bar stewards the SFA wont do anything……. aye eddie hope yir men are up to it on the 28th
donegalbhoy67 says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:34
Minceyheidman says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:26
i suppose so.
LMAO
donegalbhoy67
Better offensive than illicit me thinks.
Minceyheidman says:
15 December, 2011 at 00:00
agreed
If the RA stuff means that the cops can target you, then quite a few old favourites will have to be avoided at CP and elsewhere, but what about BOTOB, Sean South, etc.?!
Scratcher time for me as well….a bad day for Timdom, but we’ve had worse!
Hail Hail
TTTT
Lads I have faith in our support to think of great add ons which will take IRA out of these songs.
The SNP’s day will come round and when it does it’s curtains to them.
The Celtic support bring a great atmosphere to CP and I have faith we can change these songs with great add ons because they will try to even this up mark my words so they can say this is why this new bill was needed.
So Plz bhoys tgey got us with UEFA don’t be caught out again.
Burnley 78 – the Glasers are also disgusting but at least they recognise the need to have a successful team
Gentlemen,
I am no lawyer but I think the simplest way to discredit this bill if that is what we want to do is to contest the reference that limits the offence to Scottish football see below.
If someone (a reasonable person) was to argue for example they had witnessed threatening and offensive behaviour in the street during perhaps an orange walk how could the authorities deem one worthy of whatever punishment and not the other???
The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Bill aims to tackle the recent issues affecting
Scottish football
and will, if passed by Parliament, criminalise behaviour which is threatening, hateful or otherwise offensive at a regulated football match including offensive singing or chanting. It will also criminalise the communication of threats of serious violence and threats intended to incite religious hatred, whether sent through the post or posted on the internet. The Scottish Parliament intends the Bill to be passed by the end of the year. The Bill will only criminalise behaviour likely to lead to public disorder which expresses or incites hatred, is threatening or is otherwise offensive to a reasonable person.
http://www.clubcall.com/motherwell/well-reminded-of-offensive-chanting-punishments-809282.html
http://fanchants.co.uk/football-songs/st-johnstone-chants/dundee-familylonger-version/
http://fanchants.co.uk/football-songs/hearts-chants/why-dont-you-go-home/
http://fanchants.co.uk/football-songs/aberdeen-chants/wrong-country/
http://fanchants.co.uk/football-songs/st-mirren-chants/i-would-rather-shg-a-bucket/
I could go on. Quite a useful website that fanchants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhINd_2WflA&feature=related
possible new song??
Lads has anyone noticed when theirs bad news about Huns or negative storys tgey tarnish us.
For weeks now we have been talking about Huns being granted a European licence and the SFA waiting in key information from whyte so what’s keeping them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANgswiXwHyU&feature=related
my heart filled with hope then the hope turned to defeat when i watched this game last year
SffS
not linked with us, as far as i know
was just wonderin what he’s like
he plays in Germany, i think
off to bed now
‘night to all
thanks !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivUff0nSOEE&feature=related
mccall is outragous
Don’t know if it’s my laptop but the screen keeps on freezing when I’m on CQN tonight. A problem with any of you ?
the watershed has arrived
there is a division no doubt
the sanitisation is in full swing
time to stop is here
Celtic football club is not the plc
boycott all home games
let the boorish middle class bigot cowards fill the staduim
step back and let scottish society think they have won the war
when the hun on both sides are satisfied they have won
bury them
no more plc
no more appeasement
let ehm pay their own bills
I will watch the Celtic football team
but I refuse to pay
WE are the club
when they start loosing money they will soon move on
when the boors find their attitude is all that binds them they will soon move on
Charity is the fundamental political experssion
Social Justice drives Charity
ask yourself
Why has Social Justice been dropped from the club mission statement ?
be true to yourself
no grey, only black and white.
Evening guys ,
The Kano Foundation has a ticket for the game on the 28th December
North stand upper
Area 406, Row w, Seat 25
We are going to raffle the ticket £3 per go
if you are interested you can go to our web page http://www.thekanofoundation.com
and hit the donate button
or text kano11 £3 to 70070
If donating online , can you tag your donation -ticket raffle
THANK YOU TO GRA123 FOR DONATING THE TICKET
HH
Sanna
Sannabhoy..,
I’ll take two
you think the boy will be up for a bit of illicit singing :o)
how about the polis lifting the whole kano section
I reckon that would make him proud as :o)
So you can most likely tell I am scunnnered by a few things
I’ve got two questions I need advice on
the secind question I think I kniw the answer to but not sure
Question 1
I am working in England (do they have an extradition treaty with scotland ?:o)
If I post about dirty stingking huns in England, am I liable for prosecution in scotland ???
Question 2
Whats the difference between an apple and an orange??
Theres no such thing as an apple bastard
CANAMALAR 0122
Keep on sticking it to ’em.
BTW,I meant what I said when I heard that the board were not gonna appeal this fine.
I haven’t had a pint of Guinness,even though I’m partial,since I discovered their complicity in putting down the 1916 rising.
Not bought the record,even though I enjoyed much of it,since Jabba’s disgraceful article following Aiden being sent off for diving.
Won’t be back at Celtic Park while Lawell draws a wage.
From yer auld pal,BMCUWP,who isn’t one to bear grudges.
LIGHTLY!
canamalarkey says boycott all home games
eh ? eh ? eh ?…..whit ?
pigalle
BMCUW,
in 10 years the Celtic football club will still be here
in 10 years I hope success is in tune with the ethos,
in 10 years I’d rather be fighing for equality than accepting their quid pro quo
in 10 years I’d rather be Celtic than Man U
But it appears I’m in the minority, imagine that ffs :oD)))))))
innit
hail hail
I am astounded that this bill has managed to see the light of day.
Is is in one word an abomination, aimed specifically at a single group, Celtic fans.
We regularly visit the song debate on this and other Celtic sites.
However, this is not about “illicit” or offensive songs.
This denial of freedom of expression takes us back 130 years to create a criminal underclass.
I am no lawyer, but I suspect that any reasonable QC, ( is McBride reasonable?) would drive a white horse and cart through this legislation at the European Court of Human Rights.
My American acquaintances are all having a good laugh as they do not believe that the shortbread and tartan image of Scotland on the biscuit tin gels with this Stasi like quashing of free speech.
Personally, I have long abandoned singing rebel songs at football matches, but I will vigorously defend the rights of younger, more vital, more expressive fans to sing about the good and bad aspects of our heritage.
I have also abandoned the possibility of having my accountant along to Celtic Park to deliver a lecture of the tax implications of the various Individual Retirement Accounts available in today’s complex financial environment. Would she be arrested for detailing the differences and inheritance implications of a Simple, Roth or Rollover IRA?
I hope Pitt Street has an overflow facility as they may have to accomodate 7,000 visiting fans just after Christmas for singing F#%@ the IRA.
‘GG astounded
Wonder what,if anything,the Sinn Fein have to say about all this carry on?
Are they,or are they not great friends with the SNP?
This question is for all the Sinn Fein cheer leaders on CQN,and you know who you are!
The same clients that would have us all believe that the six counties is now some kind of utopia! Is it fcuk!!
Times are changing over here,indeed they are.However,they are changing because the English can’t wait to gtf out of this place,that’s why it is changing.
And respect the poor wee Cliftonville fans – JOHNNY BLACK and LEON KNIGHT,No! It’s not happenin’ anymore! – If you come to our backyard,that’s fair enough – but you need to behave yerselves when you do step in.No more bigoted provocation,it is no longer acceptable.You want to act the maggot,then go ahead,but you must suffer the consequences.
Fear not fans of the Celtic,fear not – cos when push comes to shove,there is only one tribe staying faithful,and that tribe is us…
COME ON CELTIC!! :)
pogalle,
thats right, this is a fight for the Celtic soul, the board have fired the first volley, this is not the usual uncaring dismisal, this is nazi stuff. toe the line or your out.
Well I’ve decided they cant touch me or implicte me in their blundering manipultions.I have no intention of returning to another football game as long as their rediculous nazi order is in place.
My sole pirpose from here on in is to point out to Celtic supporters that their club is the embodyment of political reform, the refusal to accept this premise is hypocracy almost on a parallel with the denial of the huns responsibility for the death of British soldiers.
black and white
jail hail
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me — and there was no one left to speak for me.
Quite appropriate and from a protestant minister.
‘GG
if I’m not allwed to mix my football with my politics
I’ll just do politics, easy innit
Such a joke the peepil are,a sad joke.
I,Johnny Black,Ranges supporter extraodinaire,scores the winning goal at Solitude(of all places),and then try to GIRU the Fenians,in their own back yard and this beggars belief – he then complains when some kid takes offense and hits him a 4d to the jaw!!
Welcome to planet hun,where(in their own degenerate minds)it’s ok to dish it out,but when they get a wee bit back – tiny tears,yer cryin’ again!
Fak away aff ffs!
Canamalar
Surprisingly, I kind of agree with you, sir….
The club lacks a coherent voice of any kind that states its position on these matters.
Also the communication with the fans who are the lifeblood of Celtic does seem to be very poor. Especially now.
Your “10 years” post was great by the way.
pigalle
BelfastCitycelt,
proclaim to the world you disdain for the hun hypocrites causing the death of British soldiers
sing it loud
pigalle,
black and white
hail hail
canamalar,
CQN’s green and white
hail hail
pigalle
Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire says:
15 December, 2011 at 02:45
Hmmmmm.A soldier is a soldier my friend.Even British soldiers,and despite the suffering and the havoc that they caused over here – they were only soldiers.They had no choice(well when they joined their army),they were sent here,and that was it.
When we were kids,on these streets – we used to torture them,and they tortured us back.The sad thing was this – I would say that at least 90% of them were sympathetic to our cause.All working class.Believe it or not,i have seen soldiers,Celtic fans,from one Scottish regiment or another – stand with us,on the street corners – and we would hand them a few cans of Harp lager and sing a few Celtic songs as they moved on,not knowing if they were going to get shot,or blown up.
If you are going to blame anybody,then blame the poiticians.Blame cowards like that Alex Salmond – for if he,and his cronies were so dedicated to Scottish independence,then surely they would have took up arms,they would have rebelled,same as my people had to do.
We didn’t want war – war was declared on us – and my people paid them back,and paid them back with interest.
I blame the lost tribe of Israel,as some of them like to be known.
BelfastCity
Class post as always.
The only sensible and balanced posts and with a right to post them have been from residents of the currently and politically British counties of Ireland, a country I love and am proud to earn my living in and raise a family without influence from legitimate army or paramilitary.
Coneybhoy says:
15 December, 2011 at 03:22
It’s up to the Glasgow Irish our kid,the KINGS of the diaspora.It’s up to those brave Bhoys from the Green Brigade,and it’s up to our away support.
In two words – The faithful.
We lost the battle,but we are going to win the war.
The only thing that can beat us,is ourselves.
Celtic for the title – 2011/12.
Neil canamalar pay taxes in London
Do you accept that your taxes paid as you post at work all day if you are gainfully employed,or your dole money if in fact you post all day at home , funded the death of loads of Irish people by car bombs, snipers, executions etc by the British Army?
Do you think that the fact that Celtic frauded the tax man through the 80’s was great cause it led to less body armour for British Army troops in NI hence causing their deaths?
I apologize for being childish and pathetic but this person has been throwing this idiotic question at everyone who disagrees with him for weeks and I am bored.