Today our parliament will go through the motions of debating how to criminalise football fans in innovative new ways, not related to prejudice, with the outcome preordained; the Bill will become law. The lines have been drawn on this debate and the country is set for a long and messy campaign.
The various calls for clarification are unlikely to be satisfied as consistency on this subject will be impossible to find. At Celtic, direct or indirect references to the IRA, already deemed unacceptable by the club, manager and most of the support, are likely to lead to prosecution. I would like to see political references removed from football but not at the cost of random criminalisation. It remains to be seen how successful attempts to prosecute fans for transgressing on this subject before the law has been passed will be.
Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.
Football is going to get messy in the months ahead as positions are so entrenched in ‘the songs debate’ there is simply no possibility of agreement. While it may only be a small minority who want to continue political chanting at Celtic, they remain Celtic fans and as entitled to establish their rights as anyone else, including Neil Lennon or Jock Stein. All we can do, as a club and support, is look for common ground amid the turmoil that lies ahead.
Today is your last chance to buy Paul Larkin’s new book, Wim’s Tims-The best thing to hit Scottish football in 10 years, with a 25% discount. Enter code: COUNTDOWN to qualify.
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BelfastCityCelt
Bang on. Celtic will always be at the heart of Glasgow and will always be part of Ireland and I believe this will continue in a positive way in my lifetime.
Losing a few radicals from the support who don’t go to games is no loss. Those who do attend and have diverse opinions will have to find a way forward without schism.
Canamalar who supports from afar but no more
So how much money that you don’t spend attending matches at CP and you are now refusing to not spend at matches you don’t attend(despite the excellent road and rail links) have you got left to spend taking away the first number the British you work for imposed on you or maybe didn’t?
And how many soldiers did that kill or didn’t depending in your drink level?
I will be at the game on the 28th, will you?
And remember I am a dirty Hun in a Celtic seat(what a cad eh!)
Denied again!
The bold and brave Canamalar marched forth to his scratcher again with me searching in vain for the elusive apology for his in character behaviour
Hopefully i will see him on the 28th in his usual seat and he can buy me a pint after and tell he loves me really.
Get it now! Available on itunes,HMV and Amazon! (Not allowed at Celtic Park though)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI4qSdhmq1U
What a joke.
Call back on the 28th you sad,pathetic huns.
Gone.
Looking forward to the game tonight.
Not sure if we will qualify, We have certainly not been disgraced in this group & with a bit of luck could have been on top going into tonights game.
Hoping for a decent performance & if the best result we get is a draw then i’ll be happy.
We can concentrate fully on the League knowing we played well against 3 very good European Clubs.
It will be a good learning experience for Lenny & our young Team who will be eager to play in Europe again next season.
Looking at some of the results in the Europa League & also the Champions League shows that we haven’t dont too badly.
Mon The Hoops!!
* haven’t done too badly.
For those who are in love
There’s a song that’s warm and tender.
For those who are oppressed
In song you can protest.
So liberate your minds
And give your soul expression.
Open up your hearts,
I’ll sing for you this song.
Let the people sing their stories and their songs
And the music of their native land
Their lullabies and battlecries and songs of hope and joy
So join us hand in hand
All across this ancient land
Throughout the test of time
It was music that kept their spirits free
Those songs of yours and of mine
It was back in ancient times,
The bard would tell his stories
Of the heroes, of the villain,
Of the chieftains in the glen.
Through Elizabethian time
And Cromwellian war and fury
Put our pipers to the sword,
Killed our harpers and our bards.
Let the people sing their stories and their songs
And the music of their native land
Their lullabies and battlecries and songs of hope and joy
So join us hand in hand
All across this ancient land
Throughout the test of time
It was music that kept their spirits free
Those songs of yours and of mine
Ireland, land of song,
Your music lives forever
In its valleys, in its mountains,
In its hills and in its glens.
Our music did survive
Through famine and oppression.
To the generations gone,
I’ll sing for you this song.
Nakamuraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVLXW7-IscQ
Jaysus!
:)
BelfastCityCelt
Are you up late or early :) HH
Serge says:
15 December, 2011 at 05:05
Late,a hink? :)
“The first music I was ever exposed to was the rebel songs,the bands used to sing at the Irish club in Manchester.
And,you know what?
I think that’s where Oasis songs got their punch-the-air quality from – me being exposed to those rebel songs.It was the rebel songs that did it!”
Noel Gallagher.
Not sure if those rebel songs are a good thing or a bad thing after all.
:)
BelfastCityCelt
A very late 1 mate. It.s 8.30am here in Madagascar.
I cant access Youtube in the office but if you look for Noel Gallagher on Celtic & Irishness he says he grew up listening to rebel songs.
HH
BelfastCityCelt
Sorry you have obviously seen that statement :)
Think I’ll get some Oasis on now to pass the day. HH
Serge says:
15 December, 2011 at 05:30
Women? Madagascar? How much you pay? Ironing included in price?
Only messin’ ye schemer! :)
Lenny won’t make the same mistake twice.
Celtic for the treble,2011/12.
Def last one from me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4O4C-aTHLI
Sorry ya can’t get youtube macara – song by Dj Luck and MC Neat.
Slan. :)
BelfastCityCelt
I would imagine about 37 pence haha.
Nah no idea, Plenty beautiful woman but not as beautiful as mine back home :-p
The Treble would be sensational. We need success now! HH
BalfastCityCelt
I don’t even need to be in work as I’m departing the island in a few days but i will check it later when i get back to the hotel thanks. HH
SCOTT ALLAN is poised for talks with BOTH Old Firm clubs as he stalls on a move to England.
Dundee United have agreed a £400,000 deal with West Brom for the Scotland Under-21 cap. But Allan, who is in the last six months of his deal, wants to look at other offers.
Celtic and Rangers have informed United they plan to hold talks with the 20-year-old midfielder.
Manchester City also have Allan on their radar but they haven’t made an official move so far.
The Tannadice youngster has been one of the most in-demand kids in the country this season.
Celts boss Neil Lennon and Gers gaffer Ally McCoist are confirmed admirers of the starlet.
They would have to pay a nominal sum to United if they landed Allan, under the terms of FIFA’s compensation scheme.
But United would stand to earn more from West Brom if the player headed for the Hawthorns.
Top of the morning to you all from a still dark Fife.
What you’re still in bed? Shame on you, get up and smell the coffee in Wee Alec’s brave new Scotland.
Two good articles on the Bill the best of which is from Iain MacWhirter in the Herald: http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/this-dumb-unjust-law-is-salmonds-first-own-goal.16167952
The other is about Fans Against Criminalisation and the refusal of the parliament to allow Jeannette Findlay to lead this group in to watch the debate on the “bigot bill” as they were wearing T-shirts with political slogans on. The photo-op this gave FAC was no doubt the object of the exercise and all of a sudden the normally sure-footed Alex Salmond is beginning to look a bit stupid. Power corrupts….etc. etc.
http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/politics/new_scottish_anti_sectarian_laws_holyrood_gets_shirty_over_bigot_bill_1_2008736
The excellent Herald article in the Comment section reads:
This dumb, unjust law is Salmond’s first own goal
Iain MacWhirter, Columnist
LIKE most people concerned about freedom of speech, I’ve been watching the progress of the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications Bill with mounting alarm.
Outlawing the singing of songs at football matches seemed such a ridiculous proposition that initially I thought the Scottish Government weren’t serious. That Alex Salmond just wanted to “send a message”, and that the loopier parts of this unnecessary legislation would be dropped. And if not, MSPs would realise that such a law is as unworkable as it is objectionable. Surely, reason would prevail. It hasn’t.
Yesterday, MSPs in Holyrood passed a law that could make the singing of the national anthem punishable by a five-year prison sentence if it is associated with “offensive or threatening behaviour” in any context that involves football. No-one knows exactly what “offensive and threatening behaviour” is, and anyway, because of the Catch-22 drafting, the very singing of “sectarian” songs is itself deemed offensive. There is no list of proscribed songs because to compile one would invite ridicule – Give Ireland Back to the Irish – Paul McCartney? This dumb law could also make the carrying of flags, colours or religious symbols illegal at football matches, in the trains going to football matches or in pubs or any public place where football is being shown. It could make singing The Sash illegal in a pub, but not in the street outside it. This is utter madness.
Anyway, there are worse things than singing Up the ‘Ra at a football match. Using the law for political purposes is one of them. This legislation is otiose, contradictory, authoritarian, subjective, illiberal, anti-democratic and contrary to internationally accepted definitions of basic human rights. It is threatening and offensive to freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of thought and to personal liberty. It hands discretionary powers to the police that are wholly inappropraite in any civilised society, effectively giving individual officers the power to deprive people of their liberty if they don’t like the way they are behaving.
It also offends against the most fundamental principle of the law: that there should be equality before it. The singing of Flower of Scotland, for example, which celebrates violent behaviour against English people, will be illegal at Hampden but not at Murrayfield simply because they play rugby there. Why on earth should a song be offensive at one sporting event and not another? And don’t tell me that people don’t engage in offensive and threatening behaviour at rugby matches. Just look at what happens on the pitch.
Behaviour liable to lead to public disorder is already illegal. Section 38 of the Criminal Justice Act 2010 outlaws “threatening or abusive” behaviour “likely to cause a reasonable person to suffer fear or alarm”. The Offensive Behaviour Bill takes the law into an entirely different realm altogether, into subjective hate crime. It will criminalise thought and behaviour that other groups might find offensive. Well, someone should tell the FM and his MSP clones that the right to offend people is the most basic right in any democracy.
Now that this law will be applied in football stadiums, there will inevitably be pressure to extend it to workplaces, public spaces, parks, meetings, concert halls, theatres, cinemas. schools – indeed anywhere where “offensive” ideas might be ventilated. For if they are illegal in one public setting how can they possibly be legal in another? How could films like Michael Collins, about the IRA leader, be shown in Glasgow cinemas? Should Scottish Nationalists be allowed to chant the bloody anti-English dirge, Scots Wha Hae, at Bannockburn? That’s threatening and offensive. The Edinburgh Festival Fringe will become a playground for litigants claiming to be offended and threatened by productions like Singing I’m No A Billy I’m a Tim.
The Government has tagged a feeble “freedom of speech” clause to the Bill which only underlines the extent to which this is in violation of it. The Lord Advocate insists that jokes and satire will not be actionable. But who is to decide? The law has a notoriously tin ear when it comes to irony, and is incapable of distinguishing between banter and abuse. Yet now, calling someone a “hun”, a “Fenian” or a “bluenose” could lead to imprisonment and a hefty fine if the words are uttered while footie is on the TV. Well, if my experience is anything to go by the police will be prosecuting workplaces and homes throughout Scotland. One of the ways in which people have sought to defuse sectarianism is by lampooning it, parodying it, satirising it. Many Celtic supporters call themselves Tims. Are they now to be prosecuted if someone overhearing these remarks feels threatened? Pity the publicans who are required to enforce this nonsense.
Worse, the Government has attempted to curb freedom of speech on the internet by saying that “threatening communications” will also be punishable by five years in jail.
Leave aside the virtual impossibility of enforcing this law on social media sites like Facebook which has 800 million users, who on earth is to rule what is and is not threatening?
Two years ago, Paul Chambers, a 27-year-old accountant, lost his job and was fined thousands of pounds for a joke tweet that read: “Robin Hood airport is closed. You’ve got a week and a bit to get your s*** together otherwise I’m blowing the airport sky high!!”. Alex is going to have to hire a lot more police. No wonder they’re about the only people who support it.
This is an unjust law which has been criticised by almost every legal body that has reviewed it. It has achieved the impossible: uniting Rangers and Celtic, the Church of Scotland and the Church of Rome, lawyers, civil liberties organisations, the Conservative Party and the Greens – in opposition to it.
It has been frog-marched through Parliament by an act of elective dictatorship. This is Alex Salmond’s first own goal, if you’ll excuse the pun. He should have listened to Parliament and dumped it last summer when he had the chance. The only hope now is that courts and juries will treat it with the contempt it deserves
Morning Celts from a very calm, mild NW coast of engerlund, back at work today after a very long period off…….
A draw tonight and I’m hoping for a good performance from the bhoys
2-2
V
That’s both Scott Allan of Dundee United and Fran Sandaza of St Johnstone who have been linked to both Celtic and Rangers in the Scottish media.
What I find interesting is that in both cases, Neil Lennon has been directly credited as being interested in bringing the players to Celtic, while Rangers are simply reported to be “monitoring the situation”.
All of which basically means that every time there is a story linking Celtic to a Scottish-based player, Rangers are to be credited with an interest purely by default.
Isn’t that strange?
Auld Heid 22.22
Your suggestion that all the interested Celtic parties should get together to hammer out a solution is as ludicrous as it is dishonest.
You are skilfully moving our argument away from my original point; the nature of the UEFA charge as opposed to the far wider issues around yesterday’s Bill.
My point remains the same. The Board colluded with the authorities to have us ‘done’ in Europe. And people like you encouraged this.
As if all of this controversy has just dropped down from the sky and caught everyone, including our Board unawares, you now have the effrontery to propose the club getting involved in future meetings to get some sort of agreement on the songbook.
It is ironic that you should mention the training day with CICI (Celebrate Identity Challenge Intolerance) at Celtic Park. Various supporters groups were in attendance and by all accounts it was a very successful exercise in which emerged a song list that seemed, in retrospect, to suit all parties that had been present. There was one vital ingredient missing. The club chose not to be represented.
What a trick that was! On their doorstep, they had the opportunity to deal with the very issue (songbook) that had so vexed the club, or so we are told, and they pass it up.
Needless to say, the song list that was then published by CICI did not have the club’s endorsement. Why not?
Their lack of engagement with the support is the most insidious part of the club’s shabby behaviour. They refused to specify what was acceptable and what was not, thereby leaving our supporters hostages to the whims of some of the most reactionary people on the planet.
The Board saw all this coming. How clever they were. How stupid we were to believe that they acted in good faith.
Auld Heid, you should be ashamed to support them. Please don’t insult me any more with your references to the Celtic Board, framed as if they are decent reasonable people. The tragedy is, they wouldn’t get away with their behaviour without the slavish backing from people of your mindset.
Good morning friends fromacalm but almost freezing East Kilbride.
Really looking forward to tonight’s game. Hoping that with 15 minutes to go we’re still in with a chance. Could be a night for an unexpected hero.
Jobo
dallasnomore says:
15 December, 2011 at 06:48
Can ya not leave it til May,please? 5 more months,is all.Concentrate on winning the league,concentrate on the football.Once Lenny takes back the title – then we can deal with Lawwell and Desmond.
A couples of months ago Paul67 posted an article stating that the team was in trouble – I disagreed with his opinion,and fair play to the fella,he agreed that he may have been wrong.He was getting it in the neck from other posters,claiming that he was too being positive,a patsy,a plant,guided by our board,blah blah blah.
Talk about damned if ya do,damned if ya don’t ffs!
The fact is this – They done us up like the proverbial kipper,in relation to the songs issue.But sure,in the grand scheme of things,it doesn’t really matter – all it is, is oneupmanship – this is a long war,and there is only going to be one winner,the Celtic support.
I know what Desmond is all about – the failed bookie,the failed gambler,now bookie once again.Good “friend” of Tiger Woods,ya know!
A lot of our supporters swear by him,fair enough,he has made some positive contributions to our club.But it’s time to go.And we all know his arrogant way,it would be “what have you done? and I put in so many millions…”
So fuck Desmond.Pound for pound i dare say that most of the posters on here have invested a lot more than you have in our club.
This is CELTIC Desmond,you should consider yerself lucky to be at the helm of this remarkable football club.And as the great Stein himself said – “football is nothing without the fans.”Rest assured,if the Celtic support decide that they want you out – then you are away,you have no choice in the matter.And yer not gettin’ yer money back,yer hardly gonna miss it,are ye?
Sorry for contradicting myself a wee bit there,and going off on a tangent.
Let’s win the treble Lenny,show them we can do this.
Morning all from gay Paree, temps du jour: a bit of rain but mild (12C max)
Cup final for us this evening, if Lenny gets his tactics right then anything is possible.
It would be soooo good to win this one.
Pity we never seem to be able to field a full strength team…
Typical to see the “qwality” rags this morning sticking the boot into the only Scottish team left in Europe.
I don’t think I have ever read a more negative article about a Scots club in Europe than this one
“Udinese man roadblock to Celtic’s great escape” by the Herald Comics’ chief fitba write (Grant)
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/udinese-man-roadblock-to-celtics-great-escape.16167808
TBH, I don’t understand the title, but I’ve been away fro Aul Scotia for many years.
The Hootsman’s main sports title, unbelievably, is this:
“Neil Lennon confident travelling Celtic fans will ‘self-police’ over illicit chanting”
They are obviously praying for something to go wrong so they can fill tomorrow’s “sports” pages.
1916 – FronGoch Internment Camp (1/10)
1916 – FronGoch Internment Camp (2/10)
1916 – FronGoch Internment Camp (3/10)
1916 – FronGoch Internment Camp (4/10)
1916 – FronGoch Internment Camp (5/10)
1916 – FronGoch Internment Camp (6/10)
1916 – FronGoch Internment Camp (7/10)
1916 – FronGoch Internment Camp (8/10)
1916 – FronGoch Internment Camp (9/10)
1916 – FronGoch Internment Camp (10/10)
Hamiltontim
Thank you for your message last night. Much appreciated.
I wouldn’t be surprised if we won tonight’s game.And no matter what the result is – we are in a no lose situation.If(and it is a big if)we get knocked out,then we can focus on winning the league,the main priority,so to speak.If we win the game,then we bank a few million squid that will be invested in new players,that in turn will make the club even stronger.
We are kings,no matter what – we cannot lose,it’s a win/win scenario.
Marvellous.
Hidden History-1916- The Man Who Lost Ireland (1/6)
Hidden History-1916- The Man Who Lost Ireland (2/6)
Hidden History-1916- The Man Who Lost Ireland (3/6)
Hidden History-1916- The Man Who Lost Ireland (4/6)
Hidden History-1916- The Man Who Lost Ireland (5/6)
Hidden History-1916- The Man Who Lost Ireland (6/6)
BELFAST CITY CELT 0735 and earlier
Good to see you back-and back on form!
Good morning one and all getting into the holiday spirit…finish up next Thursday. Off to Perth Sunday…
Keep the Faith!
Hail Hail!
As the Clock strikes 08:00 time to start work.
Until we meet again…
Keep the Faith!
Hail Hail!
RTE – The burning of Cork – Part 1
RTE – The burning of Cork – Part 2
RTE – The burning of Cork – Part 3
RTE – The burning of Cork – Part 4
RTE – The burning of Cork – Part 5
RTE – The burning of Cork – Part 6
I’m off to my cot after another nightshift,but I’ll leave you all with this little belter from The Telegraph.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8956056/Relentless-optimism-of-ugly-men-makes-up-for-unappealing-looks.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It may interest one or two of you,I’m gonna e-mail it to some soon-to-be-former friends!
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS says:
15 December, 2011 at 07:55
Bobby – you are a gentleman and a genuis sir.
CELTIC FOR THE TREBLE – 2011/12 – It’s a racing cert!
I am building up the tank for the 28th,please god we are even money,or better.
:)
BelfastCityCelt
Desmond should make his shares available to see who is willing to buy them. We are going backwards as a Club.
We find ourselves 2nd best to a skint Rangers, No longer a Champions League Side, Attendances down & the Support divided once again.
And people find that acceptable? Remember the buzz when Wee Fergus took over. I pray for that feeling again, HH
Why does DD & PL not come out and state what their plans are for the future of the Club.
I would ask you to read the CSA site and the treatment received from the Scottish Nazi Party to those who turned up to peacefully protest. Especially the part played by Tim Hater, Christine Graham.
Democracy?
This country becoming more and more a dictatorship under the First Minister or Reich Chancellor as he is soon to be known…
BELFAST CITY CELT 0809
When it comes to the bookies,I will take them on with confidence ANY time.
But not when it comes to backing Celtic. My balls of steel turn to putty,and I end up mightily brassed off as a result of a double-whammy.
Points dropped,money lost,and looking for a cat to kick.
Needless to say,I hope Santa is REALLY good to you,and you invest all your postal orders and record tokens as we H-U-M-P them!
Catch you later,beddybyes.