Today our parliament will go through the motions of debating how to criminalise football fans in innovative new ways, not related to prejudice, with the outcome preordained; the Bill will become law. The lines have been drawn on this debate and the country is set for a long and messy campaign.
The various calls for clarification are unlikely to be satisfied as consistency on this subject will be impossible to find. At Celtic, direct or indirect references to the IRA, already deemed unacceptable by the club, manager and most of the support, are likely to lead to prosecution. I would like to see political references removed from football but not at the cost of random criminalisation. It remains to be seen how successful attempts to prosecute fans for transgressing on this subject before the law has been passed will be.
Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.
Football is going to get messy in the months ahead as positions are so entrenched in ‘the songs debate’ there is simply no possibility of agreement. While it may only be a small minority who want to continue political chanting at Celtic, they remain Celtic fans and as entitled to establish their rights as anyone else, including Neil Lennon or Jock Stein. All we can do, as a club and support, is look for common ground amid the turmoil that lies ahead.
Today is your last chance to buy Paul Larkin’s new book, Wim’s Tims-The best thing to hit Scottish football in 10 years, with a 25% discount. Enter code: COUNTDOWN to qualify.
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Oiche mhaith a chairde.
Árd Macha
I have just caught this debate. A lot to get through but will wade my way through it. No doubt feeling affirmed by the things I agree with and angered by those I don’t.
Big Swee walks on with Neil Lennon says:
14 December, 2011 at 14:41
Guys n Gals,
Why ask Paul to elaborate?
‘One is the National Anthem of Ireland and the other it’s National Flag. Neither of which is up for debate as being able to cause offense. Songs about the IRA, which are political are a different matter entirely when sung at a sporting venue.’
Remind me, when we are singing ‘Soldiers are we’, it is a reference to the Irish Republican Army: no? Of course, the Irish national anthem will be allowed as even the dense know that to ban the Irish national anthem from Celtic Park would ensure world wide ridicule. I can’t see Botob being allowed, which kind of exemplifies the idiocy behind much of this. Of course, there will be a process of normalisation, which has been under way for some time given the position adopted by some on here, whereby if you keep repeating that something is wrong (singing political songs) then after a period of time it will be self-evidently wrong.
For what it is worth, I don’t sing the rebels at the football (drunk in the pub etc., who knows) but that it is not the point in this debate. I would like for Celtic fans to box clever but that has to come from us and not be imposed through ill conceived criminal procedures. In the short term, I’d like, at the next home game, 60.000 facing the Board and belting out Rebels.
Withdraw support from the team for gods sake WHY?
I thought McBride allowed himself to be badly rattled. A better opponent than Jeanette could have ripped him to pieces.
Not a good advert for his services as a QC.
In addition to european courts being busy on the minimum pricing imposition they will have a new illegal scottish act to deal with…..
At least our fat dictator will be popular with euro lawyers……
It is amazing that i used to take this charade of a parliament as a complete joke with its sub high school level debating and low calibre of representation …….
Sadly it keeps thousands in jobs in meeja and other related areas……we are stuck with this pathetic imposition looking to justify itself….how sad
Tootingtim – we are the only club owned by a billionaire where the billionaire wants to make money. He is intend on ensuring there is sufficient cash at the club to get his annual share dividends………
Hamiltontim – we are not too far apart – apart from the fact that the very people who make the club special will be getting arrested when the police feel like it and the Board will harrass and throw them out when they feel like it
Its desperately sad – and I think its the end of the club as you know it
SOAL
This place has greatly missed the humour you provide. Make your absence shorter in future!!
Neganon2
So you think the Glazers are in it with Man U for fun……..
Celtic_First
Your defence our the church was so good the other night I almost stood up and applauded in the hoose, brilliant stuff.
lubos leather jacket says:
14 December, 2011 at 22:41
It would be a lot easier for all parties if there was a recognised arrangement for regular meetings of representatives from all parties to convene at the same time to discuss common issues.
That is not to denigrate your point but to add my observation based on experience from working between the gaps.
I think these debates will always be fruitless for any Celtic fan especially when you are debating with someone 1. A Lawyer
2. A Lawyer who represented the countries most loathed football personality, player, manager. No need to name who and why!
Nothing to be gained in this debate
Conclusion already drawn up prior to debate regardless of what is discussed!
our the = of the
HT
I have a new writer with some new material that maybe funny .
TO SOME
Michael Kelly would make short work of McBride.
I thought Jeanette Findlay was OK she could have gone further than say there was no statistical evidence of a particular problem at football. The evidence that was not destroyed shows that the vast ajority of sectarian crime has nothing to do with football.
She also did well to get in the shame that cannot be spoken…anti-Irish racism!
ernie
Agreed but in my opinion he is much more effective where he is.
NegAnon2
To confess my ignorance I had no idea that a dividend is paid each year. The reported profits never seemed to justify that.
Auldheid
The main difficulty Celtic fans have with the offensive bill, apart from it having been handed to P.C. Plod (e.g. Mason McBoyne ) and his genetically anti Celtic brothers, before it was legislation are the arrests that have taken place are all so far, only on Celtic supporters.
The nice Policeman on the STV programme yesterday alluded to hearing ‘things’ at Easter Rd on Saturday and vowed “some folk are going to get arrested”. – Watch the space?
It’s understandable that Celtic fans will look to our club to help and guide them on the ‘naughty songs’ list even though it doesn’t and cannot exist, but terse one line statements from Celtic have not helped this situation.
I maintain that when the meetings take place with The Celtic Trust et all, ( and these meetings should be arranged very quickly ) that the Celtic Song Book remains intact. The Ooh Ahh reference is already deleted, and there are no other songs sung inside Celtic Park which are offensive.
I believe Celtic have already inferred this as recently as the AGM when Peter Lawell mentioned political references, and only political references.
Nobody on this Blog, or elsewhere can forecast what the Celtic Board of Directors will do, if a Celtic Fan is arrested for singing any other song inside Celtic Park without the add on.
The representations to the Celtic Board must be categoric.
I had a great big post written but actually it’s pointless. We are where we are. What do we do from here?
If this is about references to the IRA, when it boils down to it how often and in what form are they heard? I hear an awful lot of “Ooh ah Samaras!” and not much of the other. By the way I think you could quite reasonably argue that you were unaware that “Ooh Ah Up The RA” had anything to do with a disbanded proscribed organisation. There’s no reference in the song to them in any other context. Just my view.
Let’s take a look at BOTOB. I think of myself as reasonable minded. I fail to see how any reasonable minded person could actually be offended by this. In fact the people that claim to find it offensive should probably be applauding it. The lyrics of the song make it quite clear that men that joined the IRA died. It does not suggest that they were successful in any engagements with their enemy. Regardless I haven’t heard it much inside CP of late.
I think it’s possible to prove this law is unworkable. I do not expect anybody to put themselves in the firing line, I certainly won’t but I do think there are people with the power, wit and intelligence to step up for the defence of those that might find themselves in it. Let’s hope they do.
ANL
Bridging the gap would be easy if someone on our board grew a pair of balls and stood up for the fans publicly!
Unfortunately they haven’t and probably never will
Look forward to begging letter with renewal form, the only time they want to bridge gaps
Big Nan
Aye, Jeanette did fine in the time she was given. I just thought McBride’s pathetic rambling (“surely you disapprove of abuse of disabled people”) was an open goal for someone more accustomed to the old cut and thrust.
As Ernie said, Michael Kelly would have filleted him.
I won’t go into the specifics of how I ended up sitting in the same room as an RUC sergeant who was dating a Scottish girl about 17 years ago, but I always remember him saying that he would end up moving to the West coast of Scotland if a proper ceasefire was ever declared. He was apparently concerned that there would be retribution attacks from all sides for many years to come and he wouldn’t be safe in Norn Iron.
I wonder how many former RUC men have transferred to Strathclyde Police since the Good Friday Agreement?
T4
Paul67 et al
On the same day the Football related legislation was passed in Edinburgh there were three other major stories in Scotland. One, unemployment increased to 8.5%, higher than the UK average, two, the murder rate in Scotland increased by 19% year on year, and three Sir Anthony Campbell published his Public Inquiry into the Shirley McKie scandal of ten years back. Interestingly, one of the main findings of the report was that “fingerprint evidence should be recognised as opinion evidence not fact” Think about that for a second in the context of the legislation just passed. If one of the bulwarks of Criminal Law in Scotland (and presumably elsewhere) is reduced to mere opinion, where does that leave the evidence requirements of said legislation when in fact prosecution will be be based solely on the arresting officers er opinion?
TTTT
Did you get the job?
can we do anything about gettin some fired-up, driven board members in there ?
some folk who really want to move the club forward
ernie lynch says:
14 December, 2011 at 22:13
Can’t, and indeed won’t, speak for anyone else but for me Fulham is a microcosm of what’s wrong with football (as a sporting contest).
A club who by rights of their own stature should be nowhere near the top tier in their league system, creaming tens of millions of pounds each and every single season on the back of the work of others, simply because some guy underwrites them to the tune of £150m or thereabouts, whilst others scrape around getting by on what meagre moneys come through their
tickingcreaking gates.Can you imagine? Liverpool, ManU, Chelsea, Arsenal et al pretty much gift them £40m every year, yet they are still in enough debt to pay the average worker for over 4,500 years (or 4,500 average workers for a year). How does one actually achieve such a mess? Have they run at a loss of £10-20m per season for the last decade, despite the massive handouts from the EPL? Utter madness.
Fulham, for me, = Rangers, Wigan, Bolton, Portsmouth, Livingstone, Gretna, Chelsea, Man City, etc.
Great whilst the sugar daddy foots the bill; ploppy doo doos when he doesn’t :-)
Take a look at this link of Stoke’s Europa cup game tonight in Turkey , especially the photos and the verbal (illicit) and physical racist targetting of Fulller and Pennant.
Now check out what the police are doing! Remind you of anything Les Gray?
Now consider this UEFA….which is more sinister?….Celtic’s (alleged) “illicit” singing or this scandalous behaviour, which hunbelieveably Stoke will not protest! How naive is Tony Pulis?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2074311/Pulis-wont-action-Besiktas-alleged-pelting-Fuller-Pennant.html
Celtic Mac says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:04
Like the guy being done for wearing the ‘hun’ t-shirt, much will be made of ‘precedents’ set when people plead guilty (on the basis that they don’t know better).
It’s amazing how people still think (or indeed wishful think) that because it ‘went through’ a law court, that it is now enshrined in law.
astonishingCSC
So, let me get this straight.
Shout “up the ra” at a Celtic game= possible 5 year prison sentence, football banning order.
Orange walk goose stepping through the center of the country’s biggest city year after year= Police escort, government/law approval.
Welcome to Scotland 2011
Ps Could someone PLEASE put Paul McBride back in his box!
Agree a list of approved songs among the supporters. Check it out with a top QC who is a specialist in the field of Human Rights such as Aidan O’Neill and inform the Plc Board of our position.
Then get a fighting fund to take on pro-Rangers plod who are on an evening up mission.
McBride is a jobbing QC who rapists and murderers on Legal Aid run to. He has as much idea about Human Rights Law as you or I do. He is also a pompous prat with an eye on a future in politics.
TopCorner
Ian Bankier?
So…. Take the orc game at weekend?
The sash…disgusting songs about bobby sands?
So…they can’t sing them anymore?
I find them disgusting and offensive..
Does that leave them with a songbook containing possibly 2 songs?
hamiltontim @ 22:45 – “I know what you’re saying about the minority of singers but I really hope that they’re not demonised by the rest of the support.
I belted out nearly every song at Tynecastle last season on the night Lenny was attacked. I got home and came on here to find almost as many posts regarding the Celtic support’s song choice as the awful events of that night.
I was livid but it really made me think. That night, I sang not in respect or remembrance but BECAUSE I wanted to offend. That’s not right and consequently I now believe that there are some songs that we shouldn’t sing but it would be hypocritical in the extreme for me to criticise others for doing so.”
Stephen Black told me about the poisonous atmosphere at Swinecastle that night and the attack on Lenny came close to causing a riot. You bhoys showed remarkable restraint that night.
The honesty of your words should be held up as a barometer for what it means to be a Celtic supporter following our team home and away.
Respect.
TTTT
pauloantony says:
14 December, 2011 at 23:12
2?
As much as that? <- genuinely serious question
It’s after midnight in here, past 7 AM in Perth. In both places December 15th.
Kano, you made us stronger. I hope you too stay strong and happy, with family and friends around you.
Happy Birthday, Martin Kane.
evening all
had a good discussion on here last night with west wales celt – 2 differing opinions, but left at that with a hail hail from the good welsh man and no harm done
1 thing that is getting on my proverbials, more so than the ra thing is this:-
Don’t fail us! Lennon hopes fans will be on best behaviour as Celtic face Udinese
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2074317/Celtic-boss-Neil-Lennon-fans-Udinese.html#ixzz1gYN01Cxi
read that headline then read the rest of the story not once did lenny say “dont fail us”
this is what he actually said
‘I think the fans will be on their best behaviour,’ said Lennon. ‘Our away fans — wherever they’ve been — have been a credit to the club.
last night we had radio snyde tell its listeners that Celtic had been done with sectarian chanting instead of illicit
and of course we had the Scottish cup half time fiasco on the bbc
THIS is where “our” board is letting us down
Fergus would have had these ******** by the *****
not these lot, and its a disgrace
DUSHANBE BILLYBHOY
Tony Pulis
Pulis is a Catholic and regularly attends church.
May have something to do with it
bournesouprecipe says:
14 December, 2011 at 22:59
It is precisely because there is a perception that our support are being targetted that I suggested that the police should publish weekly details of arrests at games under current and new law.
The figures, as I said will establish where most arrests occur and why. If they show a lack of arrests where there is credible evidence that there should have been, then that too will be revealed. There should be a police spokesman appointed to be responsible for the production of the figures and answering questions.
On the songs list I agree. Just as TBBs was named as unacceptable so too should Ooo Ra as it unacceptable to UEFA in their competition (although for an entirely different reason to TBBs.)
To go any further would be to continue a war of songs attrition where Rangers would find many of their traditional songs that most have accepted, suddenly becoming offensive in a tit for tat exercise with no winners.