Today our parliament will go through the motions of debating how to criminalise football fans in innovative new ways, not related to prejudice, with the outcome preordained; the Bill will become law. The lines have been drawn on this debate and the country is set for a long and messy campaign.
The various calls for clarification are unlikely to be satisfied as consistency on this subject will be impossible to find. At Celtic, direct or indirect references to the IRA, already deemed unacceptable by the club, manager and most of the support, are likely to lead to prosecution. I would like to see political references removed from football but not at the cost of random criminalisation. It remains to be seen how successful attempts to prosecute fans for transgressing on this subject before the law has been passed will be.
Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.
Football is going to get messy in the months ahead as positions are so entrenched in ‘the songs debate’ there is simply no possibility of agreement. While it may only be a small minority who want to continue political chanting at Celtic, they remain Celtic fans and as entitled to establish their rights as anyone else, including Neil Lennon or Jock Stein. All we can do, as a club and support, is look for common ground amid the turmoil that lies ahead.
Today is your last chance to buy Paul Larkin’s new book, Wim’s Tims-The best thing to hit Scottish football in 10 years, with a 25% discount. Enter code: COUNTDOWN to qualify.
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Big Nan- I got it.
ernie lynch,
It’s an anti-EPL thing I think rather than anti-Fulham.
Árd Macha
Celtic Mac
BT vision is a costly affair 4 pints at lunch 3 at dinner at a trip to the PV on the way home times 5
stick to Virgin Media
Games on ESPN at eight 2 morro night. Ch 530.
Neg anon- great post, but i can’t withdraw my support of the team.We are being cast adrift by our own board IMO, and have had no support or leadership, during critical issues in the last 18 months.HH.
Fulham done in the last 40secs. Got a free kick and punted it into the opps goal trying to score. You’ll know the rest!!!
Barca in Japan for the club world cup
play tomorrow 1030hrs
some nice goals by Santos in same tourny
http://www.fifa.com/clubworldcup/highlights/video/video=1557315/index.html
read couple days back that
somone was lookin to have Dylan in v Udinese
no chance i’d say as he was playin
today at Lnxtn in the 5-0 game
TOP TIP:
Frustrated Fulham Fans. Why not tune in to SKY channel 177.
It’s Channel 5 + 1.
At the moment it’s 2-0 to fulham and 58 minutes gone. And Graham Tailor has just said that you are “in control” of the game, so maybe this time it will work out better. . .
Paul George and Filip in Italy with 1st team
ernie lynch
Not anti-fulham, just anti-that sort of football in the last minute when conceding a goal would be disastrous.
Plus a bit of anti-EPL as Ard Macha suggested
dallasnomore says:
14 December, 2011 at 20:02
Auldheid
I asked “Maybe you could enlighten me. And what other songs/chants may cause problems for us in the future.”
and you say, “I have no idea what other songs might cause problems in the future but we now know one addon that will.”
So, we are expected to obey a law without having prior knowledge of its specifics?
Why don’t the club spell out what is and what isn’t allowed?
No amount of published song lists will give any guarantee of defence, unless it is one that is endorsed as legit by the Celtic Board.
————————————–
Agreed and if you read my original post you will see that it suggested how this could be done.
This is going to come as a shockeroonee to some folk but Celtic, The CSA, the CST, the GB and other groups do talk to each other and between each other. The link I posted to earlier was part of a process in Sept 2010 for recognising the issues.
This is from it.
Part of the brief from Sept 2010 (so it predates the OB nonsense) stated:
” Celebrate Identity Challenge Intolerance recently delivered Equality and Diversity training for supporters groups and fans of Celtic Football Club. The training day covered a whole range of issues ranging from political expressions and ideology to sectarianism, racism, Irish culture and wider Equality issues.
Owing to social myths and misconceptions many of the songs that are frequently heard within football stadia have been incorrectly categorised and cultural ignorance has sought to sectarianise certain songs when such accusations are without foundation. Consequently this has created a confusion around songs that are heard within Celtic Park and stadia throughout Scotland and beyond.
Various Celtic supporters groups were represented at the training day. Within the content of the Equality and Diversity training day we focused on the rules and regulations which effectively govern football supporters in and around stadia in Scotland, as well as ensuring there was an emphasis on wider Scottish law. We also offered clarification on the long standing controversy around Irish songs, this being an area of concern for many Celtic FC supporters and the wider Irish community in Scotland.”
Now it seems to me that with the introduction of the daft bill something similar is required to inform opinion and then formulate a united response to deal with the new situation and that would include keeping an eye out that the law (daft as it is) was being applied equally to all supporters including the vile stuff from Rangers. I say that because one of the fears expressed by many here is that only Celtic supporters will be targetted. By publishing figures weekly of arrests, (updated by outcomes as they happen) we will at least be able to see if one side is being tackled and not the other.
However publication does more than that. The Hawthorne effect is a form of reactivity whereby subjects improve or modify an aspect of their behavior being experimentally measured simply in response to the fact that they know they are being studied.
This is a daft law that will cause more problems than it will solve, but that does not mean further action to mitigate its effects and influence how it is applied should be abandoned.
Celtic and the supporter groups, having dealt with the disappointment of where we now find ourselves would be best served imo by coming together to make sure those worst fears do not happen whilst providing guidance on what is likely to cause arrests based on experience to date.
hamiltontim
Good Post.
So was NegAnon2’s initial post which prompted your reply.
It’s a funny ole game.
THE EXILED TIM says:
14 December, 2011 at 22:05
would love to say “at your service”, captain
but in truth the glory is all your my friend
terrific news !! well done !!
Burley 78,
I am in big smoke tomorrow night .
If you happen to be there and want to hook up to watch the game, then bung me a text .
Probably watch game in Marquis of granby , or the Shanakee in Ealing
Removing the Not – Proven verdict would have pleased me no end!!
TopCorner says:
14 December, 2011 at 22:21
pretty sure Dylan is not in the UEFA squad list and thats why he had to sit out the AM game after his wonder debut.
Radio 4 debate about to start.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0184n4m
NegAnon2
Could you clarify this bit of your post please:
“Not only that our Billionaire owner runs us down to ensure he gets his divs – you couldnt make it up.”
Excuse me if I’m obtuse but I just don’t understand that…
Hail, hail
ernie lynch
agreed
no anti-Fulham sentiment as such
nice enough wee club
bit of excitement i suppose at 2 things
1 – a last-second goal
2 – as Árd Macha says, more EPL GIRUY / and pro-Krakow (Polska) than anythin else
as i say, Martin Jol retained dignity at end – good to see (thumbsup)
Neganon
I understand that you may perceive it as ‘blind loyalty’ but it’s not, it’s a genuine love of Celtic. I don’t give two hoots who’s in charge, I really don’t. The club for me is the men who have the honour of pulling on the hoops and the thousands who have fought racism, sectarianism and loathing to pay to watch them.
You’re correct that Celtic is about us, not Fergus or Cassidy or any of the others. We are what make our club the respected, special entity that it is.
Is this the most concerted, sustained and vindictive campaign ever to be waged against us? Possibly. But I do genuinely believe that referees were even more biased in days gone by. Twenty years ago you wouldn’t have had a Stephen Craven, not one of them would have dared, and worse not one of them would have wanted to.
You say the heart has been ripped from the club. It hasn’t mate. Only if we turn out back will Celtic have lost it’s purpose.
SOAL – good to see you back. How’s things?
hamiltontim – well said, but by feck they make it difficult! This board have totally scunnered the majority of the support, but I also lay some blame at the door of fans who chose to ignore the warning signs and who’s attitude appears to be I’ll sing what I want no matter the consequences for the club.
It’s like walking into a trap with your eyes wide open.
T4
celtfish
good spot
thanks !
TC
I wouldn’t say 19 quid is terrific news, but it’s better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, I had the in-play on and had stoped for the night, saw 87p balance and thought why not, so you well deserving of your pint :>)
TTTT
Bang on Buddy
Took a few weeks aff the blog as it is a very unfriendly at the moment.
will be lurking a lot more.
Hope you and all the rest of the roasters are doing well.
Love
Bourne….
I always like Neganon’s posts. Mostly I tend to disagree with them but I think he conducts himself in the right manner.
TC
Dylan isn’t registered to play in Europe.
Lawwell cost us 4 in a row lets not forget it and dont let him forget it eether!!! I just dont trust the guy.
From a fellow Tim
And so begins the police state! The SNP’s facist bill passes into law.
A bill designed to ‘even up’ the number on both sides who can be incriminated for ‘illicit’ chanting – but only at a football match. Only one side currently falls foul of the laws against sectarianism so let’s do something about it by introducing a bill that incriminates anyone who utters something ‘offe…nsive’ but let’s not tell them what we will deem as such. So ridiculous it’s laughable! The same SNP who glorify in singing Flower of Scotland condemns songs with EXACTLY the same sentiment – the difference? One is sung by proud, patriotic Scots and the other by ‘supporters of terrorism’.
I happen to believe that sporting arenas like football stadiums are no place for political songs but I am saddened that songs that commemorate those who made the ultimate sacrifice for their country are deemed to be offensive when those who categorise them so indulge in and wallow in their own nationalism.
The courts are going to be busy – especially the European Court of Human Rights when the right to free speech depends on where that ‘free’ speech is exercised and also on it’s derivation.
Rant over…..
Here we go.
Paul McBride and Jeanette Findlay.
“very unfriendly” I think thats down some “visitors” to CQNs lately.
Common ground! This is where I believe our guardians missed a opportunity!
Our guardians had a chance when the Gestapo , sorry police demanded a meeting with the GB.
Our guardians should have stepped in and had this meeting removing police aggression hence removing defiance!
Our guardians could have met with a body of Celtic fans who have brought entertainment to parkhead, brought atmosphere in abundance and who I believe would not have been so defiant if our guardians had the foresight to meet and show respect and appreciation of the quality the GB bring on a match day, whilst setting a joint agenda on what is best for our club going forward, removing Politician and Police harrasment!
It’s not too late to show respect!
Jeanette F
No statistical evidence that legislation needed for football specifically. Very badly drafted.
Paul McB. Essential. Police calling for a change for a long time. BoP covers too wide a variety of situations.
hamiltontim says:
14 December, 2011 at 22:29
Well said sir.
ClashCity
Sorry stuck in Edinburgh I am afraid ……
Hopefully we can catch up soon. I am going up to Perth I think and will def be through for Killie game.
Also getting a group together for a long lunch pre game on 28th.
Speak soon
Paul McB. How could anyone oppose this?
Jeanette F. There is an issue of anti-Catholic bigotry and anti-Irish racism. Not about football. Everything Paul has mentioned is already covered.
Paul McB. Absolute rubbish. BoP. Need to prove there is a risk of disorder.
JF. Chants cause significant public disorder. Last time there was major disorder was 1980.
TTTT
I know what you’re saying about the minority of singers but I really hope that they’re not demonised by the rest of the support.
I belted out nearly every song at Tynecastle last season on the night Lenny was attacked. I got home and came on here to find almost as many posts regarding the Celtic support’s song choice as the awful events of that night.
I was livid but it really made me think. That night, I sang not in respect or remembrance but BECAUSE I wanted to offend. That’s not right and consequently I now believe that there are some songs that we shouldn’t sing but it would be hypocritical in the extreme for me to criticise others for doing so.
Well that was an in depth analysis that covered all the points.
Paul McB. Criminal offence and social stigma to use racist language. Legislation can educate people.
That’s it.
Not much of a debate.
Paul McBride was on a very poor phone line. Jeanette Findlay had an advantage because she was in a BBC studio. She did all right, but not brilliantly in my view. Her tone was a bit too plaintive.