Thoroughly enjoying yesterday’s coordinated effort by Newco fans who have rushed to the coattails of Dave King. To be fair to the fans, the time for them to act was years ago, before Sir David Murray set Oldco on a path to destruction, there is little positive that can be done now. Still, that’s no reason to dive headlong into destruction.
After the debacle of 2012, when Oldco were liquidated, the assets were scooped up by people who wanted to make a lot of money. The moment Charles Green and his consortium owned the assets, this reality should have been acknowledged. No amount of 13th hour Blue Knight revisionism was going to change things.
Green made off with his money a year ago, but as a consequence of that, there are newer investors, with exactly the same objectives. There are also local investors in the form of the Easdale brothers. Neither of these groups will be bullied into submission.
King’s escrow plan, which hopes to gain security of the stadium and Murray Park, cannot be accommodated by the club. How many fans do you think they will convince to hand their season ticket money over, 1000? As many as 3000? Whatever your guess figure, this does not have the look of a high participation endeavour.
With many more fans likely to renew, and more still likely to be completely turned off by the nonsense, the The Rangers Football Club Ltd have a legal duty to their shareholders (Rangers International PLC) and creditors (coincidentally, also Rangers International PLC) to retain security of company assets. Placing them beyond the reach of creditors would be a remarkably brave and self-defeating act.
It now suits the club for King’s plan to appear to be effective, or at the very least, reduce season ticket renewals to a trickle. They can cite this as the action which tips The Rangers Football Club Ltd into administration. As the overwhelmingly major creditor, Rangers International would control this administration and their agents will set about reducing costs.
I would expect to see Newco to continue trading as a youth team for the foreseeable future, with Rangers International taking security of Ibrox and Murray Park, to satisfy their unresolved debt. This will be sold to the masses as ‘securing the stadium’, but it would be the key separation of club and stadium which King as sought to prevent.
Going forward, The Rangers Football Club Ltd will have no significant assets, no playing assets to speak of, and a substantial rental to pay to Rangers International, whose shareholders will still require their financial return. Don’t lose sight of this, the Piper Always Needs to be Paid. Always.
I haven’t revisited the RIPLC accounts which drew comment last week (might be worth an update later), but the important information to glean from them is the cost of running a football operation at a stadium which can occasionally host >40,000 people. You’re looking at circa £19m annually, before you employ a footballer.
I don’t see a way forward. This is a dead multi-club football franchise, killed by 1,000 reckless acts. Even the youth team scenario is unaffordable.
The hedge funds will know this already. Remember what John Brown claims Charles Green told him he would do to Ibrox if he was messed with? Raze it to the ground, apparently. After Newco Youth Team has spent a year-or-so bouncing around, we’ll hear that Ibrox is unsustainable as a football stadium (which I could believe). It will be razed and re-designated as an industrial area.
Celtic better have their plans in place now, as should the rest of Scottish football. There was a notion that there would be a three year hiatus before it was business as usual. This will not be the case.
We need to stand together, as a club, and with other clubs, wherever possible. We need to support the game, primarily through season ticket purchases, but we must find common ground with other clubs and fans.
Leppings Lane
Everything was wrong about football back then. Stadiums were not so much designed, they were built to fit the space and available materials. The lower Leppings Lane end of Hillsborough will be remembered as the worst terracing in football but, in truth, it was just where the next big disaster happened. It could have been anywhere.
After a decade or so of football hooliganism in England, fans were penned in, 8’ fences blocked entrance to the field, some topped with barbed wire. If you were at the fence, you were staying there until the thousands behind you headed home. Hampden Park had these fences, a legacy of the 1980 Cup Final, but they were absent from other grounds in Scotland. The Jungle had some high fencing but with regular breaks. If you wanted to get onto the field, you could do so.
Leppings Lane had further chronic safety violations. As well as a fence at the front the terrace was divided into four pens with fences running back to front. Once through the turnstile, fans were free to choose which pens to join; most would choose the central two. Of course they would.
The central two pens were accessed via a tunnel running under the upper stand. On That Day, fans entering at the rear of the tunnel had no inclination of the crush ahead. By the time they were part of the crush, others had gathered behind them. Space to retreat was quickly lost.
The outer pens were empty, the central two, death-traps. Fans piling into the tunnel knew nothing of the crisis ahead.
For some minutes it was possible for the police to burst open the pens and allow fans to flood free onto the pitch but they were still in crowd control mode. By the time they realised there was a disaster underway, it was too late.
There were lies and cover-ups. Fans were blamed, and accused of atrocious acts, all untrue. The government were complicit. The Sun were the worst media offenders but by no means the only one.
Two weeks ago a fresh inquiry into the events of that day opened in Warrington. At long last, the truth, which we’ve all known for years, will out. Too late for many campaigners and bereaved, who died fighting the combined weight of the establishment, but welcome nonetheless.
Tomorrow, CQN’er, Iain McGovern, sets off on a 232 mile walk from Celtic Park to Anfield, where he hopes to arrive 11 days later, in aid of the Lola Commons Fund for SiMBA. It’s his way of commemorating Hillsborough. Supporting him could be yours.
I’m delighted (actually excited) to confirm John Hughes will be on the blog on Thursday morning. John is Celtic’s seventh highest goal scorer in our 126 year history. He has remarkable insights into some of the great times and characters of our history. Tune in and ask him questions online.
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FrankMarker
10:58 on 16 April, 2014
___________________
Probably cos there are a lot – an awful lot – of sheep on here who,
have believed that AS is top notch cos of the way that he can just
walk into the team – unchallenged – by £7 mill of strikers who seem
to be, duff or, imho, badly managed and yet, the manager wants more
of your money so that he can bring in – more duffers – probably all with
foreign agents as well to.
HH
TBB thanks for that but my question was what would be the reprecussions for Celtic if they use the name “The Rangers” subtle but making the point. Hail Hail Hebcelt
Celtic legend John Hughes will be on CQN tomorrow morning from around 10am to answer questions and to promote his new book Yogi Bare. The big man has published the book himself (with just a little help from CQN) and has written a no holds barred account of his time at Celtic, where we scored an astonishing 189 goals for the club.
Yogi goes to the games these days as a supporter and he will relish answering the “difficult’ questions!
Thanks to everyone who emailed yesterday to order Yogi’s book and to requested personal messages on their signed copy. If anyone wants to get a personal message written on their copy of Yogi Bare please email the message you want to david@CQNMagazine.com
We’ll send you a payment link later in the week.
On the new club stuff, when we took the case to the ASA last year, the ASA did speak to the SFA who skipped around the matter but left it ambiguous enough for the ASA to rule as they did. However from the albeit clever wording you could sense the uneasiness at the SFA on this matter.
Thought it was interesting that the new/dead/undead* club have a new and different shirt sponsor (and I mean owners not brands) from the Hoops.
Been teaching the local bar staff in Benidorm that huns are now to be greeted as zombies, with a smile.
*delete as appropriate
HH
CRC
Hearts have been saved.
LB
Should the huns be killed-off completely ?
Or, allowed back into the same league as Celtic
but only as punchbags ?
One thing that has to be understood by the Celtic
support of today – rebellion is part of ‘our’ creed.
And also…..
Every rebel…..needs a Tyrant !!!
QUONNO
I know,mate.
And therein lies the quandary.
BMCUWP
It truly is a difficult situation.
It must be obvious to the board, that many fans are unhappy, hence the dropping attendances.
Surely by now they must realise, that their strategy is all wrong, because if you don’t have the support of the people who fund the club, you are in trouble, no matter how many great businessmen you have at the helm.
I think somethings got to give, at the very least, the board should be challenging the structure of the SFA, and hitting back at the hun media, with smart lawyers if need be.
The Celtic board are increasingly seen by their own support as useless.
They might be good businessmen….but so what, they don’t understand their own fans.
And most important of all, supporters are becoming apathetic, they have saw no change, the cheating continues…what do we do now, do we just accept it.
HH
Calling sevco “The rangers” will in no way help seperate this new club from the predecessor club.
Many sevco fans I know have always called rangers ‘the rangers’ so in no way would take it as a slight if sevco were to be refered to as the rangers.
When rangers fc used to have their annual visit to their Belfast cousins during the 80’s and more recently when mcleish was their manager, the fixture was billed as
“Linfield v. The Rangers”.
Calling sevco ‘the rangers’ actually strengthens their tenuous links to the deid club.
Yogi’s The Man H.H.
McGeadY Sir
THE GREEN MAN
Accept it?
Hmmm…
Maybe for the moment,aye. Left to their own devices,they will self-combust.
And whether or not that was the board’s intent all along,no blame can be attached by the bitter residue of their support in the media,or at large.
It’s not a process which I favour,but we are too far down the line now to change tack.
livibhoy – god bless wee oscar
10:51 on 16 April, 2014
Why would Buster Brady have any problem wirh an Elvis impersonator when he’s OK with Zombie impersonators?
the comfortable collective
11:15 on 16 April, 2014
Calling sevco “The rangers” will in no way help seperate this new club from the predecessor club.
Many sevco fans I know have always called rangers ‘the rangers’ so in no way would take it as a slight if sevco were to be refered to as the rangers.
When rangers fc used to have their annual visit to their Belfast cousins during the 80′s and more recently when mcleish was their manager, the fixture was billed as
“Linfield v. The Rangers”.
Calling sevco ‘the rangers’ actually strengthens their tenuous links to the deid club.
——–
Not in light of events over the last two years it wouldn’t.
CrC
go to the Tartan Shamrock and tell Paul I’ll buy you a pint and pay him when he returns to KSC….
squire danaher
I have no idea. You would have to ask him.
I was being a bit sarcastic earlier. The whole thing is becoming tedious.
Everyne has their own opinion. I hoped we would never play them again but realistically if they go bust 100 times they will always return the same team. That much is now clear.
LB
BLANTYRE TIM
He’s already using your tab,bud.
ACGR appointed him Finance Director of your recent campaign…
Sorry if already posted. but, a great piece from the DR.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/david-mccarthy-liverpool-crowned-english-3418005
YNWA
HH
BMCUW
is that why there is no money in my expenses account? 8)
RE oldco/sevo/orcs etc
I simply don’t want mini to attend a game where she will be subjected to their vile bigotry, is that too much to ask of the Celtic board….?
They are not the same club but they have the same hate filled zombies supporting them…
BLANTYRE TIM
Done up like a kipper,bud.
Of course, in the pre PC days, you could just meet them in the toon, and have a right good scrap wi them, there and then, always soothed the frustrations for a while.
To be honest, I did enjoy knocking out that big hun fae Maryhill, who shall remain nameless, and toothless…hee,hee.
But, of course, that was long, long ago….I Think:)
HH
For me, every time they go bust and come back they will be one step further away from the original club, the one with the precious history.
Just with the same people supporting them as blantyretim writes.
Glasgow Cup Final
Interesting that JPT seems to be sending out the message that Celtic are hosting a neutral venue match.
Consequently, I’d expect there to be an equitable distribution of tickets and Sevco apparently are selling only 1,800.
Perhaps our club are determined to minimise the impact of this match and only open a segregated main stand.
LiviBhoy – God bless wee Oscar @ 10.51 hrs.
Thanks for your reply.
When talking about Anthony Stokes bringing the club into disrepute I was referring to previous tweets and events in Dublin.
IMO he owes us big time.
Without wanting to resurrect another Leigh Griffiths debate, both owe us big time.
The jury is still out on both in my eyes.
HH to you.
Afternoon Timland from a warm and sunny hun free mountain valley.
Some very good posts over the past day or so.
Re the distribution of OUR CL money.
Dearie me, we fought long and hard to get to where we are today, we have done this through the most trying conditions, through the most obscene corruption imaginable.
The hun are where they are cos the cheated, end of, the lack of competition is nothing to do with Celtic, we have a well enough run club, we haven’t cheated.
The other clubs have to take a great deal of responsibility, had they challenged the powers re the cheating and corruption over the years we may well have had an association that was open and transparent, an association that had the good of the game at heart, instead they have the good of one club at heart, and the game is reaping the rewards of their inaction.
Lionroars 67 made a few very good points re the distribution of Celtic’s hard earned money.
As for Anto, towing the PLC line me thinks.
Same as above re the calling them rankers.
HH
Good Morning.
The Most Important post on this forum in the past 24 hours has undoubtedly been the one where ACGR says ” enough is enough” and goes on to state that he is not renewing his season ticket and so with a heavy heart he has decided that he is walking away from supporting the football club that he loves week in and week out.
Now, there will be many people on this forum who have met Mick and enjoyed his company, and from a purely personal and selfish view I would miss seeing him at Celtic Park and sometimes exchanging a few words with him and seeing his cheery smile.
To be frank — To hell with Rangers, The Rangers, The Texas Rangers, The Power Rangers, The Mounted Rangers, The US Rangers and any other type of STrangers — no matter what they are called or how they are referred to or seen by any one or any type of authority — their very being and how they are perceived should not be a reason for interfering with MY ability and desire to meet up with guys like Mick to go and see Celtic play football.
“Ah” but I hear some say — maybe even Mick himself ” its not that they exist or what they are called it is what Celtic are doing about it yada yada yada” and so on.
So, let me tackle that head on — and I stress this is only my view and my take on it.
First– see the Battered Bunnet’s post above about Celtic park being a neutral venue and the club being essentially contractually bound to put out the publicity material they are given — more on that below.
So– essentially whatever has been said is not a statement from Celtic Football Club expressing their words or opinion, but is a statement put out by the SFA via Celtic ( a full member club who is hosting the match concerned ) — and I will come back to that.
Second.
Peter Lawell has publicly said on a number of occasions that Celtic ( FC or PLC take your pick ) has a stand alone policy when it comes to Rangers and that they have plans going forward which are not dependent on any involvement with the team from Ibrox.
Again — choose to believe that or don’t– but that is what has been said publicly.
Third.
When I first met Peter Lawell in relation to Res 12 he made a comment apropos of nothing in particular — we were way past speaking about Res 12 and we were now just in discussion mode — and the comment was this:
No one — no one at Celtic Park, no one at the SFA or the SPL as it then was, no one in the press, no one who supported Rangers, or was involved with any other club, or sponsored Scottish Football or a club which plays in Scottish Football — No one at all was prepared with just how mentally bad things would get at Ibrox and at the SFA and no one was prepared for the fall out and the repercussions of the disaster that has unfolded at Ibrox and at Hampden.
The scale and impact of this complete bollox was unforeseen and unforeseeable
He then added, that to make matters worse, at that time ( when Charlie Green was in charge ) no one has the remotest clue as to what is going to happen next when it comes to Rangers or The Rangers — and that remains true to this day.
No one can plan for a league or an association that includes a “strong” Rangers or a returning Rangers because the overwhelming feeling was and still is that no one knows who Rangers were or are, who was or is in charge of the club, who owned or owns the stadium, whether they would be or will be solvent, what league they might play in, what kind of team they might have, whether they would go bust again or will go bust again, or whether they would or will disappear altogether.
In short, the conclusion reached ( albeit after some time where no one could believe what was happening ) was that the only sensible way to treat the whole situation was to plan and move forward as if there were no Rangers or The Rangers at all as you cannot rely on them to be a stable factor within Scottish football now or in the foreseeable future.
Of course this view meets with resistance from certain quarters most notably Ibrox.
Further, The SFA — an increasingly irrelevant and openly badly run organisation– as an institutional body either cannot fathom a strong Scottish Football environment without a strong Rangers OR find it convenient to pin the failings of Scottish Football on the fact that the club playing at Ibrox find themselves where they are.
So they do every tiny thing possible to exercise the demise of the Ibrox club from the public conscience as if it had never happened and that there will never be a problem in the future.
Accordingly, the SFA have fudged the new club old club debate, they have attempted to manipulate the rules to bring about what they perceive to be the necessary “status quo” which existed pre Rangers PLC Liquidation, and they continually refuse to answer difficult questions or address issues concerning the treatment of Rangers PLC and the subsequent companies who run affairs at Ibrox.
That is quite deliberate because they haven’t a clue what they are doing and because they stoically refuse to bow to the unpalatable truth which is that Rangers went bust and the rules should have been applied automatically without all this fannying about cobblers that we have had for two years and more.
Scottish Football is in a mess partly because the SFA is a dimwit collection of so called administrators who have as much nous and fan knowledge as your average can of peas!
How often in the past have we talked on here about how the press are hopeless in that they report any damn thing as gospel and that the SFA are a shower of blazer wearing half wits who could not organise a piss up in a brewery?
Having now been engaged in the Res 12 process, I can confirm that it is my own personal view that all the cynicism expressed above is not only true but honestly underestimated!
Celtic PLC is far from perfect. It is a far from perfect vehicle for running a football club. The club regularly fails to connect with the fans in the way it should in my opinion ( though there are attempts to improve that ) and the PR is woeful at times — or at least it is not the way that I would do things— and there are various things I would seek to change radically.
However, the club and those who run the club, must function in an environment where those who are responsible for operating the governing body are out of their depth and as a consequence the club operate in an environment which is poor and reflects badly on the club itself.
Celtic should not have to say squat about the Ibrox situation and fans are only angry because the body that governs the game is too inept to address a situation head on.
The SFA are out of their depth in terms of administering the rules that existed in 2011 and they are out of their depth in terms of drawing up rules and regulations which would prevent or seek to prevent a recurrence of the kind of idiocy that we have seen previously at Ibrox, Dunfermline and Tynecastle.
Watch for the pathetic and idiotic fall out if the UTT blows the lid on the Murray years and actually puts figures on to the mad practices that came out of Ibrox for 20 years.
Honestly, if you think the Murray story– the Rangers PLC story — is old hat on this April 2014 morning then you are as daft as a brush because if and when the UTT reports, and is then followed by a statutorily demanded report from BDO, there will be so much more to see that we will be discussing it for years!
In the interim, anyone dealing with what should be ordinary everyday issues in Scottish football needs to have eyes in the back of their head because there will be yet more fall out, yet more consequences and yet more outrage when it is shown just how badly run Ibrox was and how the SFA is.
Yesterday, I had a meeting re Res 12 — again I will reiterate this is something that Celtic PLC are actively dealing with and progressing — and I posed a question to those who were in attendance– which question was this:
” Imagine I am the Legal counsel for the SFA — how does this document read? What are the consequences or the potential consequences if you say this or that — what will my advice be on how to answer or how to react to this situation? I ask the question because that is what their lawyers will do– that is their job — and no matter what you might think or say there is an inescapable conclusion that there is nothing you can say which does not reveal you have made an absolute bollox of this!”
The point of this diatribe is that Scottish Football is and has been really badly administered. There is a feeling abroad that Rangers Football Club have been given preferential treatment, have effectively abused and misused the game, have cheated in terms of the financial and governance rules, and that no one is saying squat about it for whatever reason.
The result is that half wits within the SFA prepare press releases ( just think about who that might be by the way ) and because Celtic park is the chosen SFA ground for the fixture concerned Celtic PLC have no option but to put the press statement out via their website.
Accidental coincidence or deliberate manipulation of that situation to provoke a reaction?
Take your pick.
Yes Celtic can do things more cleverly, more in keeping with the wishes of the support and they can connect better with that support. We the support can criticise the PLC — or better still rather than criticise we can actually say ” hey that is not right or you can do that better”.
What I would counsel against is walking away from Celtic as a club as in due course that is something that will be regretted when the truth outs.
Now is the time to make Celtic Football Club as financially strong as possible — even if you do not agree with all that the board do or the way in which they do it.
Further, we as a social group need to put the fun back into the football day — and the football day is not just about the 90 minutes at Celtic park or elsewhere.
Football is a social game – a game where people should be allowed to and encouraged to socialise before and after each match a la Seville.
Celtic have to be far more active in promoting that at a grass roots level — at a fan level — rather than through corporate speak and PLC policy.
I don’t care what Rangers are called — what I care about is that guys like Mick Devaney is at Celtic park on a regular basis.
Let the SFA, The press and whoever continue to attempt to manipulate the position and the process. We will call them out, see them out and where necessary pose questions of the people who run “Our Club”.
And it is working — just check the twitter statements from the Chairman of Forfar Athletic last night.
Everyone in football knows when the results and the power is being manipulated — and they are starting to speak up about it.
Does this mean we can shorten the pitch?
GREENPINATA
Leigh Griffiths was wrong to behave as he did,and will be punished appropriately.
And,I hope,proportionately.
But he has been targeted not because of his actions,but because of who he is and who he represents. And by the same people who blithely ignore worse from massed ranks of thousands on a weekly basis.
So now they have a social conscience? Or is it bullying disguised as progressive thinking?
Brogan etc
Would it not be in the clubs interest, all the clubs that is, to get together and come up with some sort of plan to force the sfa to enforce the rules.
After all, they are only cutting their own throats allowing the ineptitude and corruption.
An open and honest association for the good of the game must be better than what we have today…..Yes….No.
HH
BRTH
Excellent as always
ACGR (Mick) we grew up in the same scheme, went to the same school, do not give up what you hold precious. Get that renewal in and who knows I might meet up for one of these famous drinking sessions.
Catman
The Exiled Tim
As far as I know, you have no idea how hard that is to achieve.
The smaller clubs are run as almost social clubs — and many of their shareholders took the view that the demise of Rangers would have no impact on them as it was nothing to do with them.
As I have said before when Celtic spoke up at a previous SFA meeting, many of the delegates pointed to their watch and made it plain that they were more interested in the lunch that was on offer rather than discussing the proposed rule changes and the consequences for their club.
Fortunately, the Celtic guy got his message over.
However, that attitude is endemic — or at least was — with lots of clubs only getting angry when it was revealed that Longmuir of the SPL was raking in cash that no one knew about, was heading to Ibrox every single Saturday and was potentially manipulating his position to suit the people at Ibrox.
Many are afraid — or were afraid — post the Raith Rovers or Turnbull Hutton issue.
But the attitude has changed as far as I know– with many now being annoyed or far more likely to stand and question what the “officials” have been doing.
Morning all on another day off.
Still disagree with Stokes re ‘Rangers’ although if he misses playing them – which he often didn’t – then so be it. Personally as I’ve said before I neither miss them being in the same league as us nor playing matches with them.
Scottish football is imperfect now but it was even more so when They still played in the top league and the forecast Armageddon has singly failed to materialise. I fail to see how the top league will be strengthened by as mediocre a team as the current Rangers one is being added to it. I dread the day they return and all those creeps in the Broadcast media will be happy that ‘the good old days’ are back. Complete with Chick Young as Leonard Sachs.
I am sorry at what has happened in Scottish football though. Sorry that what I watched for the first 50 years of my life Scottish football’s main rivalry was not a reasonably fair
match up between my team , Celtic, and the others. I know we moaned when they were dominant and we thought that they were favoured. We thought that the former was because they were better than us frequently because we were run by self – serving diddies and the latter actually sustained us, made us strong. But it was a sham. They were cheating and were found out. They died. Those who champion them cannot acknowledge any misdeed or failing on that old dead club’s part. They cannot come close to admitting their club died.
And that is why I cannot ever welcome the new club called Rangers ‘back’ and why I find it sad and fairly objectionable that people connected to and employed by Celtic are so keen to go along with these lies. I will not boycott Celtic as a result – though I may give the Derby games a miss- and would prefer it if that other lot sank without trace. Or maybe a Celtic official or employee will make a statement about the New Club that acknowledges all that happened with the old Rangers. I suspect I have as much chance of waking up with Monica Bellucci tomorrow as the last thing happening
Jimbo67 supporting and praying for Oscar Knox
I
Brogan
I hope you are right.
HH
This is a reserve game and shouldn’t be played at Celtic Park,the lying SMSM will turn it into an anti Celtic story ,every chance they get.Play it at Lennoxtown,we have nothing to gain by playing this at CP.
BRTH
You’ll need to excuse me but I’m using my phone and so it’s difficult to post and read back over all your points simultaneously.
I believe I may have been the person who initially asked JP Taylor on Twitter yesterday why Celtic were advertising the Glasgow Cup Final as Celtic v Rangers on the official club website.
His response was in line with your post, that as Celtic Park is a neutral venue, the club are simply highlighting the fixture in accordance with SFA guidance.
I’m sorry but that’s not a decent enough reason for me.
What difference would it really have made were Celtic to have appended the word ‘The’ before ‘Rangers’?
Would the SFA have criticised Celtic?
Would the SFA have fined Celtic?
Both are extremely unlikely in my eyes.
Yesterday Celtic had an opportunity to make a statement. A statement that would have meant a great deal to the ordinary supporters.
Sadly, they chose not to.
Jim, THAT is the reason why ACGR posted what he did.
We’re not looking for leadership or definitive language from the SFA, the SPFL or the MSM, we know we’re not going to get that, history tells us that.
We’re looking for Celtic, our club, to demonstrate an understanding of our desires.
Hail Hail
!!Bada Bing!!
It’s a neutral venue and it is Celtic’s turn to host.
LB
Thank you BRTH,
I think that is the most reasonable and plausible post I’ve read on the issue
Before that, I’ve read and believed the very good for and against arguments posted this morning and ended up with the annoying feeling that I’m a member of the Judean People’s Front.
LB- i’m sure you are right mate,but for me it’s a reserve game ,which will no doubt end up on the front pages.HH