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On the topic of forgiveness ….
As some of you know, in my prior life, I studied moral theology with the Jesuits … I have also been a lawyer for 25 years … over the years, I have represented and fought against some people that, lets say, you really dont want to piss off …
so, for whatever it is worth, my take on the forgiveness issue is
Clean up the mess ( (and if they aren’t really sorry … make them sorry they did it) … once they are truly sorry, and amends have been made …then, and only then, forgive them.
TheOriginalSadiesBhoy on 21st January 2018 8:31 pm
DOC on 21ST JANUARY 2018 7:22 PM
JamesGang, just being succinct:-)
To withhold or deny forgiveness in itself doesn’t cause the damage to yourself I often see claimed, to deny forgiveness to someone who doesn’t deserve it doesn’t cause harm. Forgiveness has to be earned, just like most things that are worth having.
To err is human, to forgive Divine!
I’ve never claimed to be a god.
==============================
The damage does not come from not forgiving, it comes from carrying the resentment against the wrong doer. The IFI explains it best
To understand what forgiveness is, it is important to consider what forgiveness is not (see below). The act of forgiveness does not suggest you have forgotten the injustice. Nor does it imply you condone or excuse the wrongdoer. You are not condemning; that only leads to forgiveness that stems from moral superiority. What’s more, you are not seeking justice or compensation.
When you forgive someone who has deeply hurt you, you let go of resentment and the urge to seek revenge, no matter how deserving of these things the wrongdoer may be. You give the great gifts of acceptance, generosity and love. Though the wrongdoer does not deserve these gifts, you don’t let that stand in your way. You give, not out of pity, not out of grim obligation. Rather, you give
====> because you have chosen to have a merciful heart. A heart with the power to free yourself so you can live a better life.<===== (nothing divine there)
Yes, forgiveness is a paradox–something that may sound illogical but still works. It is the foregoing of resentment or revenge when the wrongdoer’s actions deserve it. It is giving the gifts of mercy, generosity and love when the wrongdoer’s actions indicate that he/she does not deserve them. As we give the gift of forgiveness, we ourselves are healed.
=============================
Forgiving is not. . .
Condoning or Excusing
When we forgive, we do not simply put up with the person’s hurtful behavior, blame
ourselves for the person’s behavior, pretend that we weren’t hurt, or say the person
didn’t mean to hurt us. Instead, we acknowledge that we are all imperfect humans.
Forgetting the Hurt
When we forgive, we remember the hurt in a different way, with new eyes. This means
that we do not pretend the hurt never happened. We acknowledge that the unfairness
was, is, and will always be wrong. This remembering of the injustice in a different way
can protect us from similar future hurts by steering us away from situations or people
who may treat us unfairly and can set us free from an abiding anger and resentment.
Simply calming down or becoming indifferent
Anger may diminish over time and the unfair hurt may become less painful. This
calming down can certainly benefit a person, but it does not necessarily mean that he or
she has forgiven. Forgiveness involves: the recognition and acknowledgement that an
injustice occurred; a struggle to see the offender’s worth; and the gifts of benevolence
and compassion.
Reconciliation
Reconciliation is the act of two people, separated by conflict, coming together in
agreement to establish or re-establish a relationship. Forgiveness is a moral decision to
see the other person’s worth, let go of anger, and offer compassion, benevolence, and
love toward the offender. Forgiveness without reconciliation is possible. True
reconciliation without forgiveness is not possible.
For a detailed explanation of what forgiveness is and is not, refer to Dr. Enright’s bestselling
book Forgiveness is a Choice: A Step-by-Step process for Resolving Anger and
Restoring Hope
Auldheid
I think it’s difficult to specify about ‘a Protestant tradition’ per se given the multiple factions and variations that exist and the ensuing lack of a universal doctrine.
Even within the same denominations the character of faith and worship can vary hugely. The Church of Scotland varied hugely between the highlands and lowlands for eg, especially during my childhood in the 70s. The former was a combination of Old Testament angry god mixed with a degree of Sabatarisnism that the most devout Orthodox Jews couldn’t hope to have matched! Meanwhile by contrast in the lowlands members of the congregation openly chatted about such sinful pursuits as the bingo!!!
One particularly insidious belief that a few held was the notion of ‘the Elect’. A kind of theological WATP as it were.
That’s what I see in the followers of the FOD. A fundamental inability or refusal to accept that how they behaved was in any way wrong. They are the chosen ones. The lost tribe of Israel. Etc etc. Hence their permarage.
Knowing that Jesus is a Tim and a member of the Green Brigade serves to make them still more bewildered and angry imho.
HH jamesgang
MiT
A trained lawyer, schooled by the Jesuits.
Remind me never to cross you big stuff!!
;-)
HH jamesgang
I think forgiveness is apt at times
I think Cqn has forgiven MIT for all of the times he has picked Rangers/Sevco over the years in LMS/GFS/GoalsGalore…..
Even though I have never walked that particular path am sure Mike will hopefully realise the error of his ways
Cqn good night and god bless
Hope wee Leigh stretches his legs against Partick on Tuesday :-)
Will all the lurkers forgive all the posters for rabbiting on about forgiveness. :)
Jamesgang
Jesus is a Tim and a member of the Green Brigade……
Now thats uber Fenianology…
auldheid ,hats off to you what you did about the cheating, forgivness in my eyes is in the eyes of the beholder,having to move 250 miles south to get a job because of my religion, i honestly dont know.
Forgiveness has a quid pro quo of remorse and atonement
Why have some of CQN’s biggest hitters all of a sudden started to spout a totally submissive version of forgiveness
I have been on here for 13 years and, for the first time, I really worry that Level 5 have got to some folk – the forgiveness agenda is surreal!
To err is human
To forgive devine
DESSYBHOY on 21ST JANUARY 2018 8:50 PM
Probably but it would be a loan.
Keep the Faith!
Hail Hail!
WITS…
1. That is only because his Dad used to take him to the games. His Dad is the real fan in the family.
2. I heard they were changing their name to Viridi legio (everything sounds a bit more timish, if you say it in latin)
Brizzo 1888 9.14pm
Our Leigh has certainly stretched his legs at Ibrox and many other stadiums while “scoring” for the champions :-)
The only rabbiting on here is refection
MIT
you and your Latin
Habeus Corpus
Locus Standi
Veritas Dictum
Ultra Vires
Cui Bono
Go on outta dat
Lennybhoy is on, that windae is starting to move itself:))
Bring it on!
When my time comes I’m definitely opting for Catholic Heaven. Eternal craic is definitely the way forward!
https://youtu.be/-4IletJ7-Tw
HH jamesgang
Celtarella,
I forgive you.
WITS
Unrepentant Uber Fenianology!
SydneyDevineCSC
HH jamesgang
Funny how people at the same game can see things different ,re Odsonne Edouard yesterday I thought he played really well considering how little service he got and also worked extremely hard ,he was back defending corners never stopped making runs he passed the ball inside fullback for Lustig to cross for N/Cham goal ,also he worked hard to win the ball back to then shoot over in 2nd half , I was really pleased for him to get his goal. He has good skill as well, So IMOP definitely not lazy. Ajer had a very good game until their sub came on and ran him ragged. Thought Eboue Kouassi played well in his Cameo as well. N/Cham definitely man of the match for me.HH
Papajoe55,
i listened to Keevins and BFDJ yesterday saying how poor Odsonne
was and that he should have been replaced by Moussa,
came on here and numerous posters saying he had a good game,
i know who i will believe
WITS
uber Fenianology
taxi for who?
wits …
ego tibi dabo vobis novitatem saperent
so, I will …
:)
The hun WATP Kulture will never end, no point to think anything else.
Papajoe, Ive just watched the Sportscene highlights of our game yesterday .
In the lead up to our second goal, Odsonne pressed on two Brechin players inside their box. Not very lazy to me.
He had two chances yesterday , scoring with one.
Gooood Evening CQN
Forgiveness ???
When the current FtSFA is cleared out, I will return to Scottish Cup games, and reconsider going back to Hampdump
I’ll stay in- forgiven until then
Once the circus act are clearly identified as a new club, by my own club, I may consider going back to the game which KevJ tells you all we as a club take the piss out of our fans at £49 a ticket.
And games I already pay for through my season ticket
Reduce their allocation to the 1800 In rule book, better still and I will go
Maybe just me, but will not attend them games until change – then I’ll forgive
Will not be a philistine though
Mod / Mod 2
Feel free to delete my post at 9.22pm had a feeling Brizzo was a plant the 1888 bit gave him away and his shoite post :-)
Edouard had a very good game yesterday. Never stopped working for the team, linked up play well, played a sublime pass for the third goal and scored with one of the two chances he got. His movement off the ball is better than the other two strikers.
jinkyredstar on 21st January 2018 9:18 pm
Forgiveness has a quid pro quo of remorse and atonement
Why have some of CQN’s biggest hitters all of a sudden started to spout a totally submissive version of forgiveness
I have been on here for 13 years and, for the first time, I really worry that Level 5 have got to some folk – the forgiveness agenda is surreal!
====================
Nope
I wrote about the subject of Truth and Reconciliation (of which forgiveness is the bit that follows the truth )in 2011 and have brought it up whenever it seemed relevant.
The relevance in this case was in respect of the repeal of the OBAF and the subject of truth leading to forgiveness and reconciliation came up and because the OBAF only deals with the symptoms and not the causes, something I was dealing with off line.
I could be forgiven for thinking some just don’t like the idea of letting go resentment.
Fair enough, it is a personal choice, but the more informed folk are on the subject, the more likely they are to make an informed choice.
So before continuing with an unjustified conclusion re my motives read back a bit or read this from 2011.
http://celticunderground.net/nothing-to-see-here-timmy-move-on/
Although watching the game on TV is not the same as being there I though Eddie had a decent game yesterday, worked hard, made a goal got a goal, looks to have skills and decent coaching behind him in his link up play and teamwork..
Auldheid
Your replies to other posters who might question Res12 or your own thoughts, are both polite and informative
Although, you definitely think before you post…. just once I would love to read what your initial reaction would be :-)
Keep up the good work, again, if not reading the stuff on here I and many others would be none the wiser
As the Palestinians say
No peace without justice
jamesgang on 21st January 2018 9:09 pm
Auldheid
I think it’s difficult to specify about ‘a Protestant tradition’ per se given the multiple factions and variations that exist and the ensuing lack of a universal doctrine.
=====================
Yes, that is why it is difficult to say with any certainty they have no tradition of confession and absolution.
Jinkyredstar
Being honest, I find myself unable to forgive Rangers for the cheating they have engaged in, the SFA for endorsing it and the Scottish Media and some elements of the Judiciary for their compliance in it.
Auldheid
Funnily enough my post wasn’t directly about your post on on Truth and Reconciliation
What I said about forgiveness actually fits with the model of truth and reconciliation
I am in awe of what res12 tried to achieve
I just have a feeling that the corporate Celtic machine,now via CQN, wants to move on from that particular episode.
I’ve been around long enough, and have seen enough, to believe that unlike ‘The Who’ we have been fooled again!
When I attempt to consider the size of the Universe,I struggle to see anything on Earth as being either `correct` or meaningful.
`Forgiveness, I feel sure, will mean different things to different people.
The more I like someone, the easier I find it to `forgive` that person.
If I dislike someone, I try to understand rather than` forgive`.
JJ
7 mil for Eddie is a lot by our standards, but if we are looking at a replacement for MD, how much will it cost? Give him more games and see how he does.
Gerryfaethebrig on 21st January 2018 10:00 pm
Auldheid
Your replies to other posters who might question Res12 or your own thoughts, are both polite and informative
Although, you definitely think before you post…. just once I would love to read what your initial reaction would be :-)
Keep up the good work, again, if not reading the stuff on here I and many others would be none the wiser
========================
If by first reaction you mean my feeling it is usually annoyance, or even anger but it never lasts and then I have a choice to make.
Do I try to follow Corinthians 13 and what is the loving thing to do in the circumstances?
It can be a challenge and you never know on whom it will be working but I have faith and hope it is.
Most folk speak from their experience as I do from mine, so no point giving in to feelings that are as justifiable to them as mine are to me.