You and I have been discussing football finances here since 2004. In our early years Celtic lost several million pounds each year, CQN’s call was ‘we must breakeven over any business cycle’, an incredibly controversial view in those times of indulgent bling.
By 2004 Celtic hadn’t added a player who held down a sustained first team place for three years (since John Hartson in 2001). We also lost a talisman that summer. The pressure was on to spend, from the stands and the dug-out, but Brian Quinn, our chairman, had concerns about running at a permanent loss. In the face of considerable criticism from the bling-brigade he stood firm.
Celtic won three of the next four league titles while reaching new territory in the Champions League as others continued to spent beyond their means and exploit unconventional taxation policies, which ultimately saw them liquidated, but while the end game was predictable, most didn’t predict it. This resulted in strife at our club.
Finance was a focus of CQN in the early years when we produced granular analysis of accounts and budgetary forecasting. As we became less of a basket-case the time spent debating money reduced.
We can all talk about strikers and defending, policing and political influences, good corporate governance and the SFA, but if you scratch below the surface of those with many years of CQN behind them, I suspect you’ll find people who can’t resist a football club’s cost and revenue breakdown spreadsheet….
The document which appeared on the internet yesterday on a former football club [let’s call them ExCo] was a joy. To me, anyway. It provided many small details which add up to one or two enormous conclusions.
ExCo forecast current year spend for 2011-12 on cleaning costs to be £380k, electricity at £455k, insurance at £374k, postage and carriage at £146k, IT at £261k, professional fees at £613k and telephone costs at £149k. Stewarding was £593k, policing, £343k, match day ambulance, £89k. They spent £160k on finance salaries and £176 on press office salaries while ticket operation salaries cost £268k. The list is exhaustive, 10 pages of costs detailed.
Operating costs, before items like our old friend, amortisation, and tax (don’t laugh), were predicted to come in just shy of £37m, but the key message in all of this detail, is that if you want to operate a football club which can accommodate circa 40,000 spectators you need an infrastructure which costs around £20m.
The police, building maintenance, insurances, grass seed and everything else has to be budgeted for before you can look at player wages, not to mention transfer fees. £268k might sound like a lot to pay for ticket office staff but if you need to issue tens of thousands of tickets you need fulfilment staff. All those assets: enormous properties, thousands of fans, blanket media attention, can feel like liabilities to the guy with the responsibility to pay for them.
On reading this the overwhelming memory I had was of former Rangers director, Paul Murray, who a year ago told the world that Newco Rangers would not be viable, and he was hoping a Newco would have SPL football back then. New clubs cannot qualify in European competition until after they have completed three years trading (a minimum of four years without Europe).
With no European revenue for four years, Newco would be unable to pay all those ‘fixed’ costs and put a competitive team on the field. A big club can’t survive trapped in a small league with no European revenue.
This is reality. Scotland has one healthy large club and has a dozen or more potentially healthy small ones, but nothing will ever be the same again.
Thanks to everyone who has bought Willie Wallace autobiography. Orders in from Belfast, Blackpool, Bonnybridge, Burntisland and Blackrock. If you order now you will receive a copy signed by the man himself….
Email me if you have an article for CQN Magazine inside of you waiting to get out; celticquicknews@gmail.com.
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liviBhoy
“Have a sing off on Sunday and get it under one banner!”
Our very own Eurovision Song Contest. I like it 0:-)
JJ
Calling Elliot from Brighton.
I have just finished a call to a service line and I thanked the guy who dealt with my call for being so helpful.
He knew from my account details that I came from Glasgow so he asked – Celtic or Rangers?
As soon as I declared, he was effusive in his enthusiasm for Celtic but bemoaning that we are going to lose Paddy McCourt. He says that he looks at this site so I hope he sees my message.
Elliot – thanks very much for your courtesy in handling my call. It was a pleasure to deal with you.
Tim Tanium
I saw De La Pena score against us in the worst friendly I have seen at Celtic Park for Barcelona. Game finished 1-0.
I think they had 3 fans there and they were in our seats in the North Stand upper.
LB
Auldheid
15.46
sorry for late reply, visitors, think your right they’ll never be a force for foreseeable future.
back to visitors, just popped to loo.
HH
!!bada bing!!
16:08 on 17 May, 2013
Man U 85/40,-1 goal v W Brom ,who were pumped 4-0 by Norwich last week.
——————————–
Who’s giving that price?
That doesn’t even sound like gambling… More like free holiday spending money (TKV67 does not condone or encourage gambling)!!!
Surely Man Utd will give Fergie a big margin win to see him off???
Hx2
From the BBC
” BBC Scotland The financial crisis engulfing Hearts will be on the agenda when the Scottish Premier League board meets on Monday.
Hearts’ Lithuanian parent company UBIG has asked to be declared insolvent but no court hearing has yet taken place.
SPL rules state that the season finishes on the completion of all fixtures, which is Sunday afternoon.
But if the SPL board decides there has been a rule breach prior to the season’s end, any subsequent action will apply to this campaign.”
Failing to pay wages on time x 3, failing to pay NI contributions, & now being bankrupt.
What’s to decide SPL.
Jungle Jim
Singalong Sunday!
How good are these Tims that they are not at Tannadice?
Who is in this group? Is it full of our thespian and musically talennted celebrity supporters? Will they take a bow after each song and ask that players applaud them?
The Celtic Chorus is an awful name! Sounds like an operatic group!
Aled Jones CSC
LB
Roy Keane testimonial,old Trafford
23,000 celtic fans attended
this is the best club in the world
Michael Platini
HH
http://www.scribd.com/doc/142055727/what-murray-knew
What? Minty was warned in advance about Craigy’s ‘background’?
And then he went ahead and sold the club anyway?
Duped, I tells ye, I was duped.
Cat’s out of the bag on that one Minty
Canamalar
You are, of course, perfectly entitled to air your views on here as strongly as you wish. I am less certain that you are allowed to assume the unsupported agreement of others ie “nothing but mistrust from the support”. There is no evidence that “the support” mistrust The Board. The posts on here suggest that some do and some don`t.
JJ
Maybe we can name the Celtic choir after this lot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtmcVEHFZgk
Seems fitting and could be seen to be supporting the Green Brigade
KTF
HH
good afternoon cqn
Second biggest team in Scotland omg the bears will not be happy,
Just seen it on Sky,NFL said it with a staight face as well,he
probably loved doing it,I deffinately enjoyed listening to him
saying it. H H
If the Celtic Chorus spare us the 50 odd verses of ‘The Ballad of Bobby Sands’ they’ll get douze pointes from moi.
GB, CC?
GB = ‘The Pogues’ (?).
CC = ‘The Batchelors’ (?) – ffs remember them?!
HH!!
Well, well, well…
————————————————–
He told Scotland on Sunday: “Everything was pretty much agreed and then I said, ‘Look gentlemen, before we do this, can you tell me how you’re going to run this club?’
“I’m sitting there with all the legal documents in front of me and they outline their plans.
“‘We’ll carve this up, and we’ll sell that off’, and after a while I said ‘Enough, we’re not doing the deal.’
“We got up and walked out. We took our papers and went out of the door. It wasn’t for Rangers.”
——————————————————–
Because it seemed much more sense to scratch and sniff an uncorroborated Motherwell Born Billionaire and sell him the club for a pound coin… Because he smelled right?
——————————————————–
DUPED! DUUUUUUUUUUUPED I TELLS YA!
jungle jim,
On the treatment of the GB I think you are in a minority
I consider I am safe in my assertion that the boards handling of the GB
Created more mistrust within the support
For the attention of Mr Ogilvie, Mr Regan, Mr Doncaster, SPL & SFA.
From R V Sussex Justices ex parte McCarthy from 1923.
“It is not merely of some importance but is of fundamental importance that justice should not only be done, but should manifestly and undoubtedly be seen to be done. The question therefore is not whether in this case the deputy clerk (President, CEO, etc) made any observation or offered: the question is whether he was so related to the case in its civil aspect as to be unfit to act as clerk (President/CEO etc) to the justices in the (criminal) matter. The answer to that question depends not upon what actually was done but upon what might appear to be done.”
HH
ulysses mcghee
17:30 on 17 May, 2013
A £ was all it took.
Amazing init that such a small thing can Crash the mightiest.
Divine Intervention or G4S? ;))…..
Or just natural occurrences.
Canamalar
I may well be in the minority. Then again, I may not. My point is that you come over as a strong enough character to give your views without the need to assume the support of others.
Again , you might be right to say the Board created more mistrust over the GB….but I might be right in saying it wasn`t mistrust but disapproval.
I know it might be seen as simpy a matter of semantics but sometimes a certain choice of words can cause the original point to lose something.
JJ
petec
17:35 on 17 May, 2013
ulysses mcghee
17:30 on 17 May, 2013
A £ was all it took.
Amazing init that such a small thing can Crash the mightiest.
Divine Intervention or G4S? ;))…..
Or just natural occurrences.
It was a gamblers last deed before he went to gamblers anonymous.
Perhaps the Celtic Chorus and the Green Brigade could kick things off with a rendition of ‘Frere Jacques’, sung ‘in the round’ as we did at school.
The GB would sing the first line, and as they move on to the second line, the CC would commence the first line, followed by the North Standites, etc, etc.
After 15 minutes or so of this they might move onto ‘Armoured Cars and Tanks and Guns’, sung in a similar melodic fashion.
Dontbrattbakkinanger
If they reach the pineapple amout of 49, will tht be awe right? :D
weet weet weet
17:23 on 17 May, 2013
Roy Keane testimonial,old Trafford
23,000 celtic fans attended
this is the best club in the world
Michael Platini
HH
—
That was great weekend in manchester.. Brillant atmospher at the game.
Can I Have Raspberry On That Champions League Ice Cream
17:38 on 17 May, 2013
petec
17:35 on 17 May, 2013
ulysses mcghee
17:30 on 17 May, 2013
A £ was all it took.
Amazing init that such a small thing can Crash the mightiest.
Divine Intervention or G4S? ;))…..
Or just natural occurrences.
It was a gamblers last deed before he went to gamblers anonymous.
____________________________________________________________
Rumbled
Nae wan talking.
Here is wan fur ye.
Persia.
Farsi – IRAN?
What Salutes combine, redefine, redesign.
Huh
You Fool.
Christianity has Always always been the Target, dinnae be Tuped or worse, duped.
The Celtic Chorus? – “They’re only in it for the banter…”
ChewingthefatCSC
Johnnyclash-VG.
jJ,
Fair comment, and I believe they created both in that the disapproval led to the mistrust, especially after they denied any victimisation.
In fact the tide of opinion turned on them on this issue and that denial done them more harm than anything else they had previously done, the support watched them make liars of themselves, that creates mistrust, no ?
KingVic-betVictor
Where has the Celtic Chorus come from? Why does nobody know anything about it?How do they manage to get season tickets together ? Surely Celtic are not giving them free tickets,are Celtic working directly against the Green Brigade?Will they be subjected to police harassment ?A lot of questions need answering.
petec
17:42 on 17 May, 2013
Can I Have Raspberry On That Champions League Ice Cream
17:38 on 17 May, 2013
petec
17:35 on 17 May, 2013
ulysses mcghee
17:30 on 17 May, 2013
A £ was all it took.
Amazing init that such a small thing can Crash the mightiest.
Divine Intervention or G4S? ;))…..
Or just natural occurrences.
It was a gamblers last deed before he went to gamblers anonymous.
____________________________________________________________
Rumbled
Never play cards with a man with googly eyes.
Auldheid 13:47 on 17 May, 2013
Thanks for the link to the spreadsheet!
I’m not a financial guy – I had a quick look, but I get the impression that it gives an optimistic/best case view.
I was rather expecting the “Bottom Line/Cumulative NPV” for 2012/13 to be already in the red – perhaps that’s just wishful thinking on my part.
But it’s clear they really need the oxygen of the ST monies, especially if they still have the same mind set they had for “securing” the winning position for the 4th tier league.
:o)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C74J-lQpVSU
Didnae huv the mentality to play at the Top of his game at a Big club, that isnae his fault..
Jim McGuinness would have worked Wonders on that lad, or maybe not.
Ye never know these things.
Petec
Just is it me or minty who was rumbled. If its me please don’t tell my wife about me chatting up o.g.
neil canamalar lennon hunskelper extrordinaire
17:00 on 17 May, 2013
I have to say that, from your posts, you seem to have an anti-board agenda …….. Some of your views / knowledge are brilliant, but your tiring Board onslaught is strange …….. Don’t want to debate it with you….will read your good / informative posts, and ‘pass’ on your agenda-based nonsense from now on…. HH
Can I Have Raspberry On That Champions League Ice Cream
I can safely say, it wis definitely me that was Rumbled. ;))
SSN BREAKING NEWS …………Hearts are attempting to sign Daniel Cousin ;-)
67Heaven … I am Neil Lennon..!!.. Ibrox belongs to the creditors
17:59 on 17 May, 2013
neil canamalar lennon hunskelper extrordinaire
17:00 on 17 May, 2013
I have to say that, from your posts, you seem to have an anti-board agenda …….. Some of your views / knowledge are brilliant, but your tiring Board onslaught is strange …….. Don’t want to debate it with you….will read your good / informative posts, and ‘pass’ on your agenda-based nonsense from now on…. HH
________________________________________________________________
canamalar disnae huv an agenda IMO.
Talk to him and address his points, he disney bite that hard by the way.