I spoke to Phil Mac Giolla Bhain, a man who wears his Republican heritage on his sleeve, about the hostile reaction to his comments on modernising the Celtic songbook a few months back. Phil found himself to be an easy target for conspiracy theorists who turned on him for issuing a request to an end of political chanting. I’m sure Neil Lennon will not find anything like the same reaction to his comments in the Sun today, but it remains to be seen if anyone listens.
Neil said, “It’s important that we put a general message out that these chants have no place around our club. To be honest, we are better than that as a club and we always have been, we just don’t need it.
“We are and always have been a club open to all and we do not have issues around sectarianism. We have our own values and traditions but they do not include these chants. We don’t want them at matches and they must stop.”
This is not the first time Neil has given the same message this year. After his earlier comments I actually heard, “Who is Neil Lennon to tell me what I can and can’t sing? I’ve been going to Celtic Park a lot longer than he has.”
We are in a classic social paradox. The reputational damage of political singing is not felt by those who sing, and the risk of personal consequences arising for any individual singer is probably around 1%. And let’s be honest here, for all the supportive flags, banners and “I’m Neil Lennon” proclamations, is Neil respected enough to be listened to, or has he become a modern Che Guevara-poster boy?
Whatever you think of Neil, or his rights to say what you can or cannot sing, he has the best interests of our club in mind whenever he speaks on this subject.
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Gordon / setting free the bears
Though the trip didn’t pass entirely without incident
John Fairgrieve recalls his visit to Germany with Rangers in the 1967
This was 1967 and the occasion of the European Cup Winners cup final between Rangers and Bayern Munich. It was inconceivable that Rangers fans should not have followed their team to Nuremberg. A few just might have been discouraged had the game been planned for somewhere in the Gobi desert, but I would not bet heavily on that.
Anyway here was the advanced guard, stepping and pirouetting daintily, chanting ‘The Sash’ and I don’t suppose there was a raincoat, a suitcase or a traveller’s cheque among the lot of them. The only visible signs of luggage, so far as I remember, were duty free carrier bags and the contents of them had had a caning already. They carried on up the street to the railway station buffet where a concession was made to solid nourishment.
I went back to bed and put a coin in the slot that makes the bed vibrate – for some reason they go in strongly for that kind of thing in Germany – but far from inducing sleep, a hammering hangover crept up and it was keeping time to the beat of ‘The Sash’.
Later that day I took a taxi out to the stadium, the original one, the one that had given Nuremberg a bad name. It wasn’t easy to hire a taxi because the first two or three drivers deliberately misunderstood. I could see their point. They resented me as an intrusive tourist who wouldn’t let them forget.
The sky was suitably grey, weeds dotted around the vast square that had once been kept like the kitchen of a proud house wife. On the massive balcony and towers where the leader had urged a nation to enslave the world, the stone was chipped and crumbling. Why had I come to this place ? What was I looking for ? Who knows ? Maybe I expected to feel something, a hint of evil from a previous age, a bristling of the hair on the back of the neck as I stood where the torches had flared and where the storm troopers had shrieked.
Nothing.
And nobody about…except over there hunched on one of the giant steps, an old man. I walked across and he stared. My German is no use but it didn’t matter then.
‘English ?’ he asked.
I nodded. The traditional denial – ‘No, Scottische’ – suddenly seemed inappropriate.
He waved his hands in all encompassing gesture, ‘I am here every morning, soon boom, boom, you know ?’
I said I didn’t know. He said they were going to blow the pillars up to take all the stone away. I must have looked sympathetic and he spoke German for the first time.
‘Ich bin Jude’ he said and began to cry. ‘It’s them’, he said, jerking his thumb. ‘Them in town, they shout like the Nazis, they could be shouting ‘Juden Raus’.
Walking away I glanced at him once more and I saw him staring again. Then I felt a shiver.
The Rangers fans were reinforced in the afternoon and in the narrow streets of Nuremberg there was more singing and dancing, chanting and swaggering.
Look at them’, said a colleague who was not a Rangers fan. ‘Bloody animals’.
‘Well’, I said, ‘they’re enjoying themselves, they’re not too bad’.
He thought I was joking…
Neill has took the the soup
There I’ve said it
Alasdair MacLean says:
17 November, 2011 at 23:34
Thank you kindly sir.
One of my favourites.
Cheers
Yogi
Gone yersel Christy!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ln9QnLaWrY
bsr
We are missing that standard of journalism in Scottish sport.
So there was a bit of a bad reception in Nuremberg.
Well then! to complete the set. In 1961 was there Fury in Firenze, a Fracas in Florence?
Bed T.
Nite all. Be careful out there!!!
THE number of football banning orders (FBOs) issued in Scotland has soared, with new figures revealing a steep rise over the past six months.
Fifty orders were made between April and October this year – a period including football’s summer break – five more than in all of last year.
The figures also show that since the orders were introduced in September 2006 the bulk were granted by sheriffs in the Strathclyde region.
Rangers supporters top the league of shame (77), with twice as many bans as Celtic fans (36) in second. However, the appointment of football liaison prosecutors in the east and north of Scotland, following a pilot in the west, is expected to trigger a rise there.
Most orders in the past six months were for sectarian or violent offences, although there have also been the first related to internet use and six related to racial offences.
The increase in cases has raised questions about the need for new law on offensive behaviour at matches proposed by the Scottish Government.
Ministers want to introduce laws to criminalise songs, chants and banners that incite violence at matches.
However, MSP Graeme Pearson, a former police football match commander and member of Holyrood’s justice committee, said the rise in FBOs is further proof that police already have the powers to tackle the problem.
He said: “The biggest threat to a fan is not imprisonment, it is not being able to go and see his team. While everyone wants an end to the evils of sectarianism that is no excuse for poor legislation and there are huge concerns about the potential unintended negative consequences of the SNP’s plans. We must fully use the powers in place to deal with sectarianism before deciding whether there is need for further measures.”
Tory justice spokesman David McLetchie MSP said: “These statistics prove there are measures for dealing with sectarian behaviour, and call into question the need for the SNP’s slapdash legislation. We have called for more effective use of non-legislative measures and better enforcement of existing laws before rushing through a new bill.”
Like the proposed legislation, FBOs cover games, journeys to and from matches, and pubs where the games are being shown on TV. Police and prosecutors can only apply for an order where the offence was related to a specific match. Orders of up to ten years can apply where an offender is jailed, and five years otherwise. Orders for as little as three months have been set. Of 178 issued since the legislation was introduced, 166 have accompanied a criminal conviction, with the rest being the result of a civil case. FBOs have also been granted against fans of other Clydesdale Bank Premier League sides, including Aberdeen (15), Dundee (6), Hearts (5), Hibs (4) and Motherwell (5). Fans of teams in the Junior League have also been given banning orders, including Auchinleck Talbot (4).
Lyndsey Gray, FBO manager for the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland (Acpos), said: “When the legislation was introduced, in September 2006, there was a very slow uptake, particularly the number of banning orders police were requesting.
“It was the same when they were introduced in England and Wales, although there was a different emphasis there to stop English hooligans travelling abroad. Here it was part of the Scottish Executive’s action plan to target sectarianism.”
Regional differences are marked. There were 46 banning orders in Strathclyde between April and October, compared with two in Lothian and Borders and one in the Northern Constabulary area.
To try to persuade sheriffs of the value of FBOs, Acpos invited them to games to see how they are policed.
“There’s no question that numbers are going to rise,” said Gray. “Sheriffs now have a better understanding of how fgames are policed. This misconception that football just runs itself – they’ve had a behind-the-scenes view and that’s been a real eye opener.”
Prosecutors are determined to use powers such as FBOs to make matches safer. Lesley Thomson, area procurator fiscal for Glasgow, said: “Disorderly conduct and violence at matches will not be tolerated. Any conduct of this nature will be robustly investigated and perpetrators dealt with. If they plead or are found guilty, the Crown will advise the court of its power to impose FBOs.”
The Scottish Government insists FBOs and the proposed legislation are necessary.
A spokesman said: “It is not a question of either the Offensive Behaviour at Football Bill or FBOs – both do different things, and both are needed. We need the best laws to ensure police and courts have all the tools they need to most effectively tackle the offensive behaviour of a small minority poisoning our national game
“The Offensive Behaviour at Football Bill clarifies and strengthens existing laws – for example by providing our police with the tools to arrest those shaming Scotland abroad. We also need FBOs to be used effectively, and the increase reflects the hard work of the police and the courts.
“The bill has been drafted to ensure anyone convicted for offensive behaviour can also be subject to an FBO.”
Related Articles
Police contact Uefa to penalise club over offensive songs
CELTIC could face sanctions from Uefa – the body that governs European football – after Strathclyde Police raised concerns over songs sung by supporters during the club’s Europa League match against Rennes.
Yogi an all,
Cheers,
early start and way past it,
Oidhche mhath
yogijunior3…
My oldest friend, for his sins, is an Orc. Along the way I have picked up two brothers in law, one of whom is a dyed in the wool blue nose, the other an English protestant who, although he wouldn’t even know what a hun is, would definitely be what a man of republican inclination would refer to as a Brit.
You are inferring that somehow adults are not capable of disagreeing without hating? Once again, it’s the same tired, hackneyed “Celtic fans Catholic, Rangers fans Protestant” nonsense. And it IS nonsense. Why is your English friends nationality or religion important here? Why have you referenced them? And would your “Brit” friend really take issue with you having an opposing viewpoint to his? If so, I’d suggest that maybe your views are out of kilter with both decency and those of the majority of non sectarian, libertarian (the tradition rather than US type) Celtic fans I know.
I have the right to sing these songs in their company. Would I? Would anyone be quite so bloody minded and offensive?
What songs do you refer? What songs are “offensive”? In the company of the many Rangers supporting friends I have, we will argue about football, we will sometimes argue about politics too. We’re adults and we can have differences of opinion – we won’t try and needle each other or wind each other up, why? We’re friends! That’s not what friends do!
At matches I don’t sing. At all. But I respect the rights of others to. Including Rangers fans. That some of their songs are offensive? Tough. I detest “Big Jock knew” etc… however, football is adversarial. People will sing tasteless things to needle opponents. Does it make it right? No, but people absolutely have the right to believe that, and the right to express it. Personally, I am not friends with anyone that I need to keep my politics a secret to. I think my friends would be more offended thinking I patronise them by walking on eggshells, but that’s just me. Would I choose to be friends with people who sing things I find offensive? No. I wouldn’t be friends with bigots of any colour, be they Celtic, Rangers, Catholic, Protestant.
Apparently it’s sort of ok to be homophobic. It’s entirely ok to hate people because they’re bald, wear spectacles, are fat, skinny, ugly, slow, short, stupid, lacking in confidence or any combination of. All of these are acceptable at football matches. But to sing in FAVOUR of being republican? Never. How very dare you sir! How dare people express an opinion shared by at least some of their peers (otherwise there’s only be one singer, right?)
If your Celtic friends sing songs that you think will upset your “other” friends, then I suspect either you have bigoted Celtic friends, or bigoted “other” friends.
I love singing these songs. My wife is a Tyrone woman who escaped death in the troubles only by incredible good fortune. She’s not a fan of my songbook. Do I persist in singing them because I have the right to?
If you wish to, then yes you do have the right! And that is key – YOU have the right to decide. YOU decide your own course of action. Just as I choose not to sing, so can you. You should equally respect other people’s rights to do otherwise.
Would you?
That’s my decision to make. And so it should be. Not yours, not UEFA’s, not anyones other than my own.
/p
Alasdair et al
Same here.
Abandon ship.
God bless all here.
Cheers
Yogi
Estadio
My point is that Manchester has a week long Irish festival and cultural event backed by the City Council with a major parade.
You will know that but why does the city with the biggest Irish diaspora not have the same ?
You know the answer to that.
Why am I asking you questions you know the answer to?
celtic40me says:
17 November, 2011 at 23:27
THEY are the cause of the current argument imo. They have resented having to drop TBBS and TFS and this is all about getting even.
The measures I proposed do that.
If we were to unilateraly take the approach in my part one before the HOWEVER there would be an outcry of appeasement on our side and any united initiative on our part would falter (trying to get the Celtic support to move in a particular direction is like probing mercury with a fork).
The measure I proposed is not appeasement it is a means of mutual suspension of hostilities by putting them in the same position of sorting out their offensiveness, Something they have avoided so far.
We show them (and the world) how to be gracious and mature and put the spotlight back on them. We need not be governed by their response, we do what is right but if they do not respond in kind they wil have lost all right to look for even more – a fear that is being used to not take the initiative.
If we take NI as the analogy, it was only when the two communities engaged with each other that peace became possible and distasteful as engaging is, I see it as inevitable if this immature nonsense is to stop.
P8ddy
Absolutely brilliant post mate.
Agree with all of what you said there.
Houl your weesht @22:58
I am quite sure he is all that you say that he is however himself or yourself have still not answered the original historical query.
I suspect the reason that yourself or himself do not want to answer is because history will show that Celtic FC lost more men fighting for Britain in both world wars than they ever lost men fighting for Irish republicanism
Will there be ariot at Ibrox for the St. Johnstone game?
From the Official Rangers site:-
“New Screens On the Way
FANS attending Saturday’s SPL fixture against St Johnstone will notice that one of the large vinyls, unveiled at the start of this season, has been removed as work starts to install new screens at Ibrox Stadium.
Replacement screens have been requested by supporters for some time and this feedback has been taken on board by the club as it continues to improve the overall matchday experience for Rangers fans.
It is hoped that work will be completed before the end of December.” (unless the taxman has repossessed them)
First they came for the TV’s csc
macanbheatha is mise neil says:
17 November, 2011 at 23:41
Bollocks!! there I said it.
Auld Neil Lennon heidsays:
17 November, 2011 at 23:50
I suggested the same yesterday.
Put the light back them.
We lose a few add ons they lose a full songlist.
Let’s do it before the next Derby match.
On 20th March 2011, 18 days after the “shame game” and 12 days after a hastily arranged Scottish Government “summit” at which an eight-point plan to tackle sectarianism in Scottish football was agreed, Celtic and Rangers met at Hampden Park in the final of the Scottish League Cup.
The match was marred by a remarkable and prolonged display of sectarian and racist chanting by Rangers supporters. One of the few newspapers to comment in the immediate aftermath of the match (The Times) described the “consistent, incessant nature of the bigoted chanting” as “truly shocking”.
The Famine Song (prescribed as racist by a Leading Judge), The Billy Boys (banned as sectarian), No Pope of Rome (disgraceful in its entirety) and “We Hate Celtic, Fenian B*****ds” were sung repeatedly and with a renewed vigour, leading to suggestions by many observers that this was a show of defiance following the summit.
The evidence is forever on tape. From the first occurrence during the team line ups to meet the dignitaries, to the post-presentation celebrations, the entire afternoon atmosphere was hate filled, with repeated anti-Catholic and anti-Irish chants.
Assistant Chief Constable Campbell Corrigan viewed the afternoon’s events differently. Considering the high profile nature of the match, coming in the immediate aftermath of the “shame game” and the summit, we may be forgiven for expecting the Assistant Chief Constable and his officers to be on the lookout for such behaviour.
21st March 2011 (BBC Scotland Website)
Assistant Chief Constable Campbell Corrigan said it was clear that there had been significantly fewer arrests. He added: “I think the atmosphere at the ground was excellent and the match was a great advert for our football. I hope that this atmosphere is replicated across the force and that we see a drop in the levels of alcohol-related violence that blights so many communities.”
And Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill said the game had been a “great advert for Scottish football”. He added: “This was the showpiece final everyone wanted to see, and it was a great advert for Scottish football. Both teams were passionate, committed and it was end to end stuff from kick off to the final whistle. The players, management and fans contributed to a memorable occasion, and I urge that their positive example inside the ground is replicated outside it over the course of the evening and beyond.”
So, we have the Assistant Chief Constable and the Justice Secretary praising supporters who indulged in incessant sectarian singing in their presence in the highest profile football match of the season. Contrast this with the comments attributed to the Assistant Chief Constable this week when commenting on a low-key, almost non-event (in comparison) football match at Celtic Park.
Celtic recently played a Europa Cup game at Celtic Park against Rennes. The match had no history of any note, there was no hostility between players or fans, it certainly carried no hatred or sectarianism and was an altogether unremarkable occasion (other than, perhaps, Celtic getting 3 points in Europe). At least that was the case until the retrospective news of the intervention of Strathclyde Police.
The precise sequence of events that led to Strathclyde Police reporting Celtic supporters to UEFA (by match commander Eddie Smith) remains somewhat unclear, however on this occasion Assistant Chief Constable Campbell Corrigan saw fit to comment in an entirely different tone.
16th November Daily Record
Corrigan has been appalled at what he sees is an attempt by some to blacken Smith’s name while ignoring the root cause of the problem.
Speaking exclusively to Record Sport he said: “There is a lot of controversy surrounding Eddie Smith just because he was the match commander. This is absurd, Eddie was simply doing his job. Far from being unprecedented, Eddie’s actions were in accordance with our normal procedure. It is his duty to conduct a debrief with the match delegate after every match, whether it’s an SPL or European game. I’m really concerned, primarily for my officer. I can understand emotions are running high among the Celtic support but let’s be clear – this is not Eddie’s fault. It is the fault of supporters who are engaged in sectarian or hate-filled singing – or in this case pro-IRA chanting. This is a priority for the country to sort out. It’s a priority for the Scottish government, the police and the courts. It’s not Eddie who sets the agenda. It shouldn’t be pinned on one individual who is merely carrying out his orders.”
I can fully understand the Assistant Chief Constable’s desire to support his match commander, but his comments are inconsistent with those made in March this year, comments which leave him open to accusations of double standards.
The Assistant Chief Constable sees fit to praise supporters who were engaged in “constant, incessant” bigoted chanting in the first high profile match after the “shame game”, yet deems it necessary to condemn supporters of another club where a smaller number of supporters have allegedly been engaged in singing songs of an “illicit” nature and – without fear of contradiction and without even knowing the specific songs in question – undoubtedly a fraction of the number of sectarian songs and chants witnessed at Hampden in March.
Is it any wonder that Celtic supporters have withdrawn from a meeting with him?
I hope to see the Green Brigade take a step forward and replace the ending of the Celtic Symphony with “ooh ahh up the Celts”. It would allow them to demonstrate maturity and support Neil Lennon in his request, but it would also allow a magnificent, rousing song to be sung by everyone at Celtic Park without compromising many of the Celtic support who are uncomfortable with such references.
The songs debate will continue, but knowing when to compromise will be an important aspect of the debate going forward.
setting free the bears / Gordon
Found this wee snippet Rangers v Fiorentina on the BBC site
A lifelong Fiorentina fan, Rinaldi recalled the fear of being in amongst so many passionate home supporters.
“In Dumfries we had an Italian football team called the Red Romans. Some Scots boys used to play for us and we went up together on the bus. We were all friendly,” said Rinaldi.
“When we got back to the bus we noticed one or two Fiorentina flags were torn down. It got a bit heated.
“It was a bit scary to be in the ground, especially because Fiorentina won 2-0. We just had to keep quiet, not show we were Italian or we’d never have got out alive!”
mickbhoy1888 says:
17 November, 2011 at 23:54
That’s simple.
Write to the head of Her Majestys Forces who will give you a list of conscripts, recruits etc They have a monster data base
Then write to P O’Neill but I warn you he might not have the information to hand.
Or maybe you should just wise up.
Auld Neil Lennon heidsays:
17 November, 2011 at 23:50
I suggested the same yesterday.
And a red card to all fans that they can raise and boo and everyone of their vile songs on live TV.
googybhoy ♥ Celtic says:
18 November, 2011 at 00:00
Aye I saw that and responded. The dance needs to be carefully choreographed but we need to take the lead.
Googybhoy @ 23:50
Glasgow city council I believe back a similar festival held in the merchant city
http://www.irishinscotland.com/id9.html
If memory serves me correctly not very well attended ………nae rhebel bands
Auld Neil Lennon heidsays:
18 November, 2011 at 00:06
googybhoy ♥ Celtic says:
18 November, 2011 at 00:00
Aye I saw that and responded. The dance needs to be carefully choreographed but we need to take the lead.
Indeed we do . We can easily put them back in the limelight if we box clever.
p8ddy says:
17 November, 2011 at 23:48
I really have to be going. So perhaps we might pick this up another time.
To be honest though, you missed the point (and tone) of my post by an extremely wide margin.
You are welcome to your opinion. I thought a bit of reflection might be in order. Far be it from me to suggest you consider the issue objectively.
I hope your approach achieves your objective. Best of luck with it.
You may have noticed most of my points were phrased as questions. I’m not trying to tell you, or anyone else what to do.
However, just a final point before quitting.
“If you wish to, then yes you do have the right! And that is key – YOU have the right to decide. YOU decide your own course of action. Just as I choose not to sing, so can you. You should equally respect other people’s rights to do otherwise.”
In the context of the point I made, if this is your serious response, I would refer you to my earlier mention of single or divorced. I can’t really take you seriously when you say things like that.
You’re obviously fairly angry or frustrated. Can I suggest you come back to this post once you’ve mellowed a bit.
I’m sure I’ll pick up your reply in the morning.
In the meantime. Take it easy brother.
Cheers
Yogi
P8ddy
And again @23:48
Hail Hail
P8DDY
I concur 100%.
The BOB’s will be the ruination of our great club. From the official BOB’s to the supporter BOB’s.
If they think giving up a couple of songs/add on’s will placate this bigoted infested nation then they’d be better howling at The Moon Bhoy.
MWD
Repost from earlier with hindsight proof reading.
I can completely understand, and agree, that the contemporary nature of the Provisional IRA makes it possible that real offence could be caused by the glorification of this organisations actions, perhaps even to those who recently lost loved ones during recent years. Loved ones who might still be alive today were it not for their death directly as a result of Provisional IRA actions.
It has taken till my 38th year, fatherhood , and, grudgingly, this frustrating debate, to reach such a conclusion and for that I am thankful.
It is, after all, usually no fault of the bereaved, no matter the circumstance of the death of a loved one, be they soldier, freedom fighter, terrorist, innocent woman, or child.
Any fair minded and reasonable person would accept the above statement.
Now try exchanging the above phrase “Provisional IRA” for “British Army” and try to understand the real offence and anger felt by this member of the Irish community in Scotland to recent PLC statements and very public donations to the Poppy appeal (for example).
I’ve always felt a second class citizen in this country, but I never ever thought this feeling would finally be cemented by the policies of Celtic Football Club.
A very sad day
Houl yer weesht
A simple admission that more Celtic players lost their lives on the battlefields of ww1 and ww2 than at the post office or O,connell St will do
Auldheid
Speak to you later.
If I can help will do.
Got you on FB.
You too mickeybhoy……
Off to bed.
P8ddy @ 23.48
You are a complete self indulgent, hypocritical, libertarian erse.
All this pseudo-intellectual, Voltaire spouting, St Als debating society patter is not big and it is not clever.
It is just cry for help from an attention seeking one club golfer who has no grasp of reality.
How you can condone / accept the BJK campaign is beyond my comprehension.
I would suggest you go back to your Ivory Tower and throw shite at yersel.
Bloke109 is Neil Lennon…
What nonsense. While you pull Paul up about Irish nationalism running through the origins of Celtic, what about the Catholicism running through the origins, right up to hymns being sung in the 60s, the 70s and of late. Does it not suit your agenda? Further, how dare you associate Catholicism with sectarianism, how dare you speak of imposing Catholicism. My word you strike an impressive polemic, but Brother Walfrid? Was he sectarian?
I don’t deny people their right to sings hymns. People have a right to believe in any imaginary deity, and to sing in praise of said deity. I’m sure you’ll agree that I’m arguing FOR freedom of expression rather than against it. That Catholics were involved in the founding of the club is beyond debate. The “Brother” part of Brother Walfrid, and “Marist” give that away. However, the club was both expressly NON sectarian and most definitely political.
Now… what agenda am I pursuing, other than Celtic fans should have the right to sing what they like?
If on the other hand, you tell me that Celtic were, or are a Catholic club, I’ll tell you that you are talking arrant nonsense. Hibs, were a Catholic club. They had an expressly sectarian policy. A policy Celtic rejected.If you’re born in a stable, it doesn’t make you a horse, and Celtic are no more a Catholic club that Jesus was a horse.
You sound as if you are denying Celtic’s Catholic origins. There’s a million miles between being proud of those, celebrating them and all the while seeing us as an all-inclusive club, in support and playing staff. That phrase ‘impose Catholicism’ is wicked, and you know it. I am Catholic, I am not ‘god squad’. And don’t give me your patronising garbage about them ‘coming for us next’. Are you new? There’s barely been a time when they haven’t despised us for that. I sincerely do wenjoy your posts, but seriously sir, what nonsense from you there.
Firstly, an apology – I didn’t mean to patronise by that statement. Not at all. What I meant is that these people have an agenda. They are bigots. When the republican songs have gone, you know what’s coming next? A revival of “blessing yourself CAN be offensive”. The SNP have already used this line on several occasions, so it’s coming. There is no solace or safe haven in singing hymns. As for imposing Catholicism… If it’s not the imposition of this faith onto me, why no hymns to Ganesha suggested? Or Allah? It’s imposing a uniform culture and stereotyping us all! I refute that stereotype, and won’t have others beliefs pushed on to me. Anyway, please accept my apologies on that front. I wasn’t intending to patronise.
I’m denying that Celtic are a “Catholic” club. Brother Walfrid rejected such an association at great monetary cost to the club. A brave, admirable and laudable decision. I don’t deny anyone their religion, and I respect their right to that religion. My point was, and remains, that the people thinking we can get it up the authorities by stopping the current chants and replacing them with hymns are dangerously misguided.
I am a libertarian. You have the freedom to believe in whichever deity you like. I have the freedom to think it’s a classic control mechanism to enslave and control. However, given that my Mother and late Father were rather more religious than Cardinal Winning (and took great solace from it) I would never deny people that comfort, or rain on their parade. Unless it’s foisted on me. Someone says “Lets sing Hymns!” I’ll reply “OK let’s start with “We love you Satan”…People can sing what they like, but don’t push me into it.
From Celtic wiki, I commend to you the first Celtic circular. Never hide from it. It’s beautiful.
I am not blind to the many great achievements of religion. Many good things, and many good people have given their lives to serve their God (A God I don’t believe in). Equally, Celtic were set up as an expressly non sectarian club. With non sectarian aims. That a great many Catholics founded a club with such intentions is testament to the ability of people to separate the need from the religion. For example, I helped out at a local soup kitchen run by the parish my Mother and Father worshipped at. Why was it formed? Because the only other soup kitchen in the area was run by the Salvation Army and they made people pray before feeding them. People needed food, not salvation. Again, I thought that a laudable pursuit.
/p
Googybhoy, aye ye have me backing that …. Erm but also …. do ye ken that they’ll sing sectarian and racist songs for 90 mins and we’ll do two acceptable songs with a few 5 sec add ons. Que the mic and video on the Celtic supporters and the Hun go scot free …… Do you get the irony ? Ye ken where the rebelious Scots don’t pay they’re taxes to a foreign monarch.
:>)
V
But the graffiti didnt say up the Celts….. it said Ooh aah UP THE ‘RA
Thats what it said.
mickbhoy1888 says:
18 November, 2011 at 00:18
I have absolutely no interest in the make up of any branch of the British forces. I detest them alland those who support them. Murdering scum
MadMitch…
When you can dispense with the playground insults maybe we can have a sensible discussion.
Until then, enjoy shouting at the sky.
/p
I’m glad Paul67 has written a positive article on the singing issue albeit on the back of Neil’s interview because only a sustained and prolonged message from respected Celts in the new media and fan group leaders will change supporters outlook.
I know he wrote recently who is going to listen to me but it needs someone to take the lead. For what it’s worth well done.
To be fair though political singing and chanting has only recently returned to Celtic Park. For a good while especially when the stadium was full political chanting almost stopped. I think Fergus McCann (although Bhoys against Bigotry” was not universally liked) did a good job in creating a friendlier atmosphere around Celtic Park – with one obvious exception but that was all Hughs fault.
I think the idea of a song book is great as I always tell fans of other clubs we have the biggest catologue of songs anywhere. From Celtic songs to mainstream Irish to nicking pop tunes like “I Just Can’t Get Enough” we have many. Therefore publishing an official club songbook would showcase this.
So which songs would make it and which wouldn’t?
My favourite is the Coronation Cup song but would it pass the PC brigade?
The No.13 Shorts says:
18 November, 2011 at 00:16
Repost from earlier with hindsight proof reading.
I can completely understand, and agree, that the contemporary nature of the Provisional IRA makes it possible that real offence could be caused by the glorification of this organisations actions, perhaps even to those who recently lost loved ones during recent years. Loved ones who might still be alive today were it not for their death directly as a result of Provisional IRA actions.
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Why would a life lost via IRA action be less palatable than loss of life due to British forces in NI ? I know Celtic supporters who have had their homes destroyed and family members injured and killed by the British Army is their loss any less than the people you make mention of?
Is this really is the current thinking at Celtic that an Irish loss is not as significant as a British