Well done to the Daily Record for revealing that SFA referee, Eddie Smith, was the policeman who reported Celtic fans to Uefa for singing offensive songs against Rennes last month. Smith was one of the referees who declined to make his services available as referees went on strike last season while Celtic took-on the SFA amid accusations of lies, bullying, sectarian behaviour and cover-ups among referees at the association. He is no longer on the Grade 1 list.
Following the strike the SFA Head of Referee Administration was removed from his post and referee, Dougie MacDonald, who was accused of lying to Celtic manager, Neil Lennon, resigned, prompting then-Celtic chairman, Dr John Reid, to say the club felt vindicated in raising their concerns.
Vindicated, no doubt, but with more than a few feeling bitter towards the club.
While the Daily Record can reflect on some good work today, bizarrely, the Scotsman newspaper accused Celtic fans of sectarian chanting at the Rennes game, something even police-gossip, Eddie Smith, didn’t accuse them of.
Why stop at accusations of sectarian behaviour? If the Scotsman are going to be ridiculous, why not accused Celtic fans of genocide and treason? Better still, just say lots of them have funny names, go to strange schools but will never ascent to the British throne.
Celtic have 123-years of non-sectarian history, it is downright offensive to suggest otherwise.
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obonfanti…,
dont be so naieve
Just saw a clip of Mohammed Ali on TV …… heart breaking.
What is or is not offensive and will the police report fans for sininging old terracing favourites?
Lets take traditional old terracing favourites such as:-
Who Ate all the pies you fat bastard you fat bastard you ate all the pies?
or an old favourite we sang about Dick advocaat in the MON era –
He’s Bald He’s Fat Hes going to Get the Sack Advocat?
Are these songs offensive to Fat people or Bald people ?
Or an old ditty rangers and hearts fans have sung to us?
You only sing in the chapel
Or Go Home Ya Huns Go Home Ya Huns
These songs are part of terracing banter but under the new bill it would be up to a policeman to decide if this is offensive?
So if the policeman was fat or bald he may be offended by such chants
If the policeman was a catholic would he be offended by “you only sing in the chapel” and if the policeman was a rangers fan would he be offended by the word Hun.
All of these are objective to the individual but clearly under the new bill the policeman would be within his right to define such chants as offensive.
What about chants such as :-
Glasgow celtic Peodophiles
Oh the hibees are gay
paul hartley is gay
We Hate Jimmy Hill Hes a Poof
Has the police reported any fans for singing about peodophiles ? or are these homophobic chants offensive?
Now we get to the sectarian or political songs
As a celtic fan I am not offended by rangers fans singing the sash, derrys walls, build my gallows or UDA songs. I am offended by the No Pope of Rome chant, No Chapel to sadden my eyes No Nuns and No Priests and by the Billy Boys chant. 20,000 fans sang those 2 songs at the League Cup Final this year and no policeman reported these songs despite both songs being against the law. The SNP’s Kenny McAskill came out that day and praised the atmosphere and behaviour at the game.
Given the silence from the police and authorities at the League Cup Final and the silence for the last 5 years at a time when UEFA were fining Rangers for singing secterian songs it is ironic that a policeman now reports Celtic for singing offensive songs. The Boys of the Old Brigade is no different to any songs about fighting for freedom or defending your country/territory against invasion(be it Flower of Scotland, Derrys Walls, God Save the Queen which has the lyric rebellous scots to crush.) The scottish media and authority only want to hear the IRA part of the Boys of the Old Brigade song and call that a pro IRA song. It is a song that celebrates and commemorates Irish heroes who fought against the British army to get their country back in 1916 (in the same way Flower of Scotland commemorates the scots army who fought against the english all those years ago.)
The song that the media bandwagon (and possibly the policeman who reported Celtic to UEFA) seem to be referring to as offensive is “the ooh ah up the ra” lyrics. This song is from Celtic Symphony which is a WolfeTones song that reached No 14 in the Irish charts. The song was written by Brian Warfield in 1987 for the centenary of Celtic Football Club. It has been covered by countless bands around the world. The song itself is a good song and is about a celtic fan on the road to paradise and has been sung by Celtic fans for the last 20 years. In the current politicaly friendly world we live in the lyrics of the final verse “the graffati on the walls says Ooh Ahh Up the Ra “ are unfortunate and some people may say that it is glorifying the IRA when the song is not about that at all. The majority of Celtic fans nowaydays let the song fade out and do not sing the last verse that has has those lyrics. There is a small minority that sing that last verse but not 20,000 fans or even 2000. Even if they do in reality the song itself is not offensive or sectarian. It does not offend other religions or race. It is a song about a Celtic fan on his road to Paradise and standing in the Jungle. If this is indeed the song that is getting Celtic into trouble then I am sure as suggested by anther blog Celtic fans will be happy to change the line to “Ohh Ah Up the Celts”. This way this song would not be offensive to those offended by it.
Lets educate those people that are trying to demonise the celtic support. They are only interested in creating bad publicity for Celtic and their fans in an effort to create the perception that both fans are as bad as each other. Lets be a step ahead of them to stop them dragging our good name down as that is what they are trying to do. (Its almost a case of if we cant sing our songs then you cant sing yours. Billy Boys and No Pope of Rome are illegal and offensive where ours are not and that is what the police and SNP are trying to change.)
Anyone calling into phone ins or opposing the new offensive bill please raise these points and please pass this message around. The Celtic support has moved on and made great strides since Fergus MCCann set up Boys and Against Bigotry. The police and the goverment are hell bent on painting a picture of our fans as sectarian and prejudice. We are proud of our Irish heritage and are entitled to sing about it. LET THE PEOPLE SING.
What’s to be added to the views already expressed. Not much other than highlighting the fact that this is just the start. Whatever you feel about our song sheet they will not stop here. Celtic will walk out of UEFA on the 8th December with a clean bill of health. There is nothing wrong with singing political songs. This is a shot across the bows saying they are coming for us
What would Ireland be like both North and South without the IRA
Without their intervention in the early 1900’s the whole country would still be a backwater with it’s people oppressed and enslaved to the British Crown
Without PIRA the Catholics in the Norrh would still be living in damp substandard ghettoes with no work and minimal benefits available. They would still be subject to Loyalist Paramilitary attacks that would never be investigated by a corrupt Police force
Remember the British army was deployed in Northern Ireland initially to protect Catholics from loyalist mob attacks
So sing your songs with pride. Sing them loud. This proposed legislation being drafted by the bigoted men and women in the Scottish Parliament will not stand up in the higher European Courts
BB
I listened to Brittney tonight on Snyde. It appears that the only song that there is a real problem with is The Celtic Symphony. Why can’t we just stop singing this sh.t song ?
obonfanti1888 says:
15 November, 2011 at 00:19
ernie lynch says:
15 November, 2011 at 00:14
I don’t trust Lawwell to mount any sort of defence.
Obofanti I think you’re right but not for the reasons you state.
A UEFA conviction might affect our commercial income. And that might affect PL’s bonus. I’d imagine that might drive him to defend the club more than anything else.
reilly1926 says:
15 November, 2011 at 00:28
I like the song , but prefer up the celts!
reilly1926 says:
15 November, 2011 at 00:28
I listened to Brittney tonight on Snyde. It appears that the only song that there is a real problem with is The Celtic Symphony. Why can’t we just stop singing this sh.t song ?
Did he really say that? the ONLY song? wow!
So, everything will be ok if that song isn’t sung any more? He’s such a wise man. Who does he support again?
mic1888 says:
15 November, 2011 at 00:36
reilly1926 says:
15 November, 2011 at 00:28
I like the song , but prefer up the celts!
——————————————————————-
It’s complete garbage contrived by the Wolftones to get in the chorus of “Ooh ah up the RA.” It sold them plenty of videos way back in 1989.
reilly1926 says:
15 November, 2011 at 00:28
Because it infringes people’s right to sing offensive, oops, sorry, political, songs.
My knowledge of Irish history is, by my own admission, sketchy at best. As is said in a previous post, i am scottish, i am not irish. From what little i do know, i appreciate that the ‘old IRA’ began with the best of intentions and fought against the British oppressors and interlopers, with similar parallels to Palestine and other places today.
Let’s be honest, though, the great majority of people in Scotland / Uk have zero knowledge of this history. What they know is that, in the 70s, 80s and 90s, the IRA blew people up. They killed innocent people, men, women and children – this is beyond dispute. Most people couldn’t give a toss about the ‘history’ or the politics.
In the same way as i am offended by the arse who drives past my office window every day (and i do mean every day) playing the Sash with his windows down, i am offended by people who sing about an organisation who murdered innocent people, as i would be if i heard the other lot singing songs about their own ‘defenders’ such as the UVF etc (although i suspect i am getting into areas where my lack of knowledge will soon be obvious).
I support Celtic Football Club. Always have, always will. I am one of many who have no interest in some of the songs that are being sung by supporters of my team and the sooner they stop the better, then we can take the moral high ground and hold the Huns (and their many cousins across the country) to account for their many failings.
And yet and yet Brother Walfrid invited a guy to Celtic park to sing a song he’d written to commemorate a group of Irishmen who had been executed for murdering a British policeman.
How on earth could you explain that to a ten year old?
TheR00STER says:
15 November, 2011 at 00:27
Lets educate those people that are trying to demonise the celtic support
—-
We need to educate our own supporters. While Irish Rebel songs are not offensive to us and most people in Britain but in the West of Scotland if you want to be offended by them you will be. Just as if you want to be offended by a Polish goalkeeper blessing themself you will be. You can never change a peoples culture, just not going to happen. Therefore we need to be a lot more clever than what we are being.
Celtic fans have more football songs to sing than the rest of Britain put together and there are plenty of mainstream Irish songs to sing also. The rebel songs will always be there but they should be kept to our buses and clubs.
reilly1926 says:
15 November, 2011 at 00:28
I listened to Brittney tonight on Snyde. It appears that the only song that there is a real problem with is The Celtic Symphony. Why can’t we just stop singing this sh.t song ?
***************
I won’t but you will…….
Lie down, shrivel and die, or stand up and give you’re side the support it deserves.
oooh ahhh up the Celts!
V
GSC Bhoy
Without the PIRA in the 60’s to 90’s the Catholics in the North would still be being persecuted. Don’t fall for the crap being spun by the media and the bigots in parliament.
These are the same people who condemn the IRA for killing innocent people who support the invasion of Iraq Afghanistan and Libya. It is their bombs and bullets that have killed hundreds of thousands of innocent citizens of these countries in the name of giving them “freedom and human rights”. Hypocrisy of the highest order. This is the country that invented internment without trial and initiated it on a worldwide basis while they built their empire. They continue to use these tactics now in the name of “national security” While trying to deny legalized rights to their own citizens in an admittedly very flawed European Act on Human Rights
BB
BB
Well its time for the cot,and on that note,’Up The Ra’..
gscbhoy says:
15 November, 2011 at 00:49
I used to feel exactly the same as you. Let’s end singing any song that contains IRA whether it be BOTOB or any other song because it’s perceived by the masses to reference the troubles and all the baggage that goes with it.
Then one day I actually sat and thought about the process of a complaint about BOTOB as an example and what you would say as a complainant. And all the reasons evaporate – it’s not about any modern incarnation of the IRA, it doesn’t celebrate the killing or defeat of an enemy and in lamenting lost comrades it doesn’t celebrate any actions where they lost their lives.
I changed my mind. It’s not up to the club to educate the offended. If somebody is offended because they think that song celebrates the IRA they’re wrong and if they’re offended and they don’t even know why, then their complaint is not worth hearing.
Personally I’m not Irish and I don’t plan on being Irish in the future. The songs don’t have any real meaning for me, so I don’t sing them but if others want to fair enough. Unless they’re singing songs of murder and glorifying in defeat of the foe, I don’t think that’s to be tolerated. I’m not aware of any songs that fit into that category.
Vmhan♣ who Supports Neil Lennon says:
15 November, 2011 at 00:59
I’ll never shrivel up and die and I will support Glasgow Celtic until the day I pass my last breath. I just want our support to stop shooting us in the foot by singing crap songs like The Celtic Symphony.
Brian Boru says:
15 November, 2011 at 01:04
Don’t forget concentration camps. We invented them too.
gscbhoy says:
15 November, 2011 at 00:49
reilly1926 says:
15 November, 2011 at 00:28
i appreciate that the ‘old IRA’ began with the best of intentions and fought against the British oppressors
——-
Even the PIRA started for the right intention of protecting it’s community before it started to “blow up people”. Maybe after Bloody Sunday and the Hunger Strikes it was justified I don’t know seems to work for the Americans. But you are right trying to tell Brittons we are right and you are ALL wrong, it’s not going to happen so we need to stop being thick and LIKE THE IRISH themselves move on.
I wonder if this would be offensive to anyone?
back home in derry (by bobby sands)
in 1803 we sailed out to sea out from the sweet town of derry for australia
bound if we didn’t all drown
and the marks of our fetters we carried
in rusty iron chains we sighed for our wanes our good wives we left home in
sorry
as the mainsails unfurled our curses were hailed on the english and thoughts of
tomorrow
at the mouth of the foyle bid farewell to the soil down below deck we were lying
o’doherty screamed waking out of a dream and the vision of bold robert dying
the sun burned down cruel as they dished out the gruel dan o’connor was down
with the fever
60 rebels today bound for botany bay how many would reach their receiver
ohhh ohhh oh i wish i was back home in derry ohhh ohhh oh i wish i was back home
in derry
i cursed them to hell as the bow fought the swell the ship danced like a moth in
the firelight
white horses rode high as the devil passed by taking souls onto hades by
twilight
5 weeks out to see we were now 43
our comrades we buried each morning
in our own slime we were lost in a time endless night without dawning
van diemans land you’re a hell for a man to live out his life in slavery
where the climate is raw and the gun make the law neither wind nor the rain care
for bravery.
20 years have gone by and i’ve ended my bond
me comrades their ghost are behind me
a rebel i came and i’ll die the same
on the cold wind of night you will find me
Coorslad Night mate and oooh aaaah up the Celts back at ye!
V
HH to ye!
reilly1926 says:
15 November, 2011 at 01:08
********************
A moot point, you don’t like it and I do, you’ll notice of course that the Green Brigade rarely sing that song now, they have moved on.
Has anyone got a recording of the game, did the Celtic support sing Celtic Symphony? why the debate …… its all john bull and nazi like propoganda IMO.
V
HH
reilly1926 says:
15 November, 2011 at 01:08
*************
The shrivel up and die part of my post was not meant towards you but a general point that some of our support would like to roll over for the hun, take it on the chin…… no thanks give them an inch and every song will be proscribed.
V
HH
Seems to me that everytime there is a break for international games the domestic trouble and strife gets raised a few notches… And become pressing matters for the Press.
Probably just my imagination….
I’ll never shrivel up and die and I will support Glasgow Celtic until the day I pass my last breath. I just want our support to stop shooting us in the foot by singing crap songs like The Celtic Symphony.
The first time I heard that song (mid 90’s in the pub that was then known as Finnegans Wake) I guess it wasn’t the wolf tones version.
Therefore I always sang OoH Ahh up the Celts, thats why I dont have a problem with the song.
So sorry I don’t share your opinion it doesn’t make me a bad person!!
The “debate” about songs will resolve itself. However…
Supt Ed Smith has shown his mettle or lack of on two occasions now. With the referees strike he chose to strike in protest at a colleague being correctly castigated for being dishonest. He went along with the gang of colleagues, who failed to understand that a lying referee is not wanted by anyone in football, at any level.
Either off his own initiative or after pressure from above, he has decided to raise with Uefa, the alleged offensive singing by Celtic fans. As many others have opined – Why this game? Why this(these) song(s)? Why complain to Uefa and not the SFA? (These are the self same songs that are sung at every game) We are told by Strathclyde police via the media that this sort of liaison with Uefa is standard practice – yet no one seems to have heard of it before – ever? A Scottish policeman at a home game for a Scottish side decides to ignore the Scottrish club who are actually paying for his overtime at the game, and without any word to the club, chooses to make allegations against the fans of that club. Talk about gutless, talk about sucking up to the Chief Constable and the Scottish Govt. This man really wants a promotion – badly. Honour and integrity are clearly in short supply in the kingdom of plod. A reasonable man would have made a a note of whatever he thought was offensive, drawn it to the attention of the club, and then spoken with UEFA. Smith managed to bottle it and cause a rift between the police and a club with which the police have to have dealings on a daily basis. Why should Celtic have any confidence in what the police tell them – ever?
All of this smacks of collusion by Smith and others, or opportunism by him to further his own promotion credentials. Either way Strathclyde Police have managed to compromise their impartiality, such of this rare commodity that was left. How many times did a police supt complain to Uefa reps that Rangers’s fans were responsible for offensive/illicit singing. Answer – None that we know of.
Strathclyde police, you need to remember who pays your wages (that would be taxpayers).
HH
RWE CSC
Sometimes I come on here and wonder. I wonder how people post without even preliminary research into what they are talking about. I agree with the “Celtic Symphony” analysis. The Wolfe Tones never gave a shit about the North and the Celtic support were a God given opportunity to foist an “Oh A–Up the Ra” chorus to a crap song. The Republicans I knew who gave their lives, and the survivors, don’t spend every week singing “Ra” songs. They did it. They left it where it was and got on with the rest of living. If you want a reasoned debate on all of the subject of Republicanism, log onto The Pensive Quill, where the things that are still going on in the North are argued about with a real Social conscience. I get Robert Tressel (and yes, I’ve read the book. Who’d be a painter eh?”), James Forrest, BRTH, and some individual posters who now and again approach that standard. I had almost got my wife agreed on the move to Scotland, until the Neil Lennon case hit the headlines. She looked at me and asked–“You want me to live there?”. Even though three of our grandkids, whom we love dearly, live there, her observation was–“They’re not civilised.” Personally, I’d start a proper Scottish Republican Party, but that’s just my heart talking.
Some of the political chants you hear in Edinburgh, Westminster, Brussels and Washington are extremely offensive.
And do not get me started on that Gregorian chanting… Insufferable.
Bomb ra lot rem… To quote a celebrated offended one.
Vmhan
Beautiful lyrics and yes they will find it offensive. Ergo we should sing it!!!
BB
Vmhan♣ who Supports Neil Lennon says:
15 November, 2011 at 01:12
One of my favourites V Mhan, I note you’re in Blackpool,met a crowd of Blackpool bhoys a few years back at the Wembley tournament ended up in Waxy’s in London, good day out,
Just had a thought, who pays for the very large police presence at our home games? I think its CFC, if the Police authority’s had a problem with a song or songs, shouldn’t CFC be informed immediately? agenda there I think.
So with the very small away support we have at CP now, why not reduce the Police presence to a minimum, they’re hardly furthering the name of CFC by going behind our backs to Uefa, hit them in the pocket.
V
HH
Oh and just a final point before bed. We’re all pretty reasonable on this blog so I doubt this is a warning that’s really required. However we’ve all been made aware that Facebook et al are being watched. Don’t allow yourself to be goaded into saying something regrettable. Here or elsewhere.
Night all.
mic1888 ….. I never made it.
Brian Boru ta sir!
V
HH to ye both
For those who think editing the song book will ease matters..
It’s awful to see the ease with which the Scottish meeja can sully the reputation at the drop of a hat.
The last time I remember this happening (excluding the Nevin and McLean efforts at the Cup Final which was a prelude to this stage of the overall agenda), was about this time last year.
The story was issued worldwide that a certain Steven Craven resigned due to death threats.
This was of course contrary to what he had said himself and he did in fact deny it was the case. In fact, he expressed in detail that his reasons for resignation were due to Dallas and McDonald, indeed bullying.
But that story ran for several weeks worldwide before it was edited to say that Gollum was the one receiving death threats,an MIB who would be in no rush to deny it.
It doesn’t matter what our supporters sing or chant or what beliefs or parts of our culture we express – they’ll create something if needs be.
It’s these attacks that we should be concerned about.
I share Ernie Lynch’s concerns about what the Celtic Board will do to defend us in this matter (or what they won’t do, more to the point). Hopefully they’ll prove us wrong.
An Ulsterman, I am proud to be,
From the Antrim Glens I come.
And though I’ve laboured by the sea, I have followed fife and drum.
I’ve heard the tramp, of marching men,
I’ve seen them fight, and die.
Ah! lads, I well remember when,
I followed Henry Joy!
Sometimes the 4th line is “I’ve heard the martial tramp of men”
From 1798, and not sung enough.
Vmhan♣ who Supports Neil Lennon says:
15 November, 2011 at 01:37
I posted on this earlier (maybe around page 20,21). It’s states in Article 45 of the UEFA Safety and Security Regulation 2006, which are still in place for current tournaments, that the Match Commander must address the crowd if behaviour is unacceptable. He didn’t do this, so either there was no unacceptable behaviour or he failed to do his job and make the fans aware that their behaviour was unacceptable and allow them to stop it.
Fortunes Favour Mibbes says:
15 November, 2011 at 01:41
I said earlier they’ll defend us but only to protect commercial income. We won’t be getting so many invites to lucrative tournaments if this charge sticks.
weeminger @ 01:46
It’s hard to tell what damage these attacks are doing and what the lasting effects might be, so they should hopefully be aware of that and find that reason enough to try and contain the situation.
That said, the irony is that the rest of the world takes the British press and it’s politics with a pinch of salt, so England is where this propaganda could be most damaging. That must be a concern to DD.
Suppose we’ll have to wait until Dec 8th, before any hard-hitting statement from Celtic can be forthcoming about this.
weeminger says:
15 November, 2011 at 01:43
******************
I hope thats factual, because the police officer that instigated this ( I dont know if its the person quoted) is for the high jump, the story could/ should be turned in Celtics favour. Celtic FC just need to make a statement in this regard and make the position clear……. ask a few “why” questions e.g. why this game, why were CFC not informed, why did the Uefa officials not speak to CFC, why were the offenders not dealt with, why were there no arrests, why was there no crowd trouble if erm someone was offended.
why why why?
V
HH