Apologies to all who, like me, tired of the circular ‘songs debate’ on CQN many years ago. Back in 2011, when Celtic had a similar action from Uefa to defend as they now face, I predicted a slow train wreck:
“The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
“I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
“Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.”
A few weeks later I wrote:
“Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
“While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.”
Since then:
Uefa and the SPL have reprimanded Celtic.
Efforts have been made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which mostly fail.
Despite pleas from Neil Lennon, or earlier from Jock Stein, some insist on signing political songs. As Jock and Neil were ignored it remains an act of vanity for lesser mortals to try to convince others to desist.
Charges have been brought for expressing sentiment similar to that in Flower of Scotland.
Celtic have not, should not and cannot try to mitigate IRA chanting or banners as inconsequential. It is not inconsequential, Jock Stein knew it a long time before the SNP government. Fill your boots on debating why it has consequences below, it’s a huge intellectual topic, you’ll enjoy it, then you’ll get bored of it and move on.
If you want the opportunity to have a Debating Society on this, there is space on the comments section, knock yourself out. I’ve been through the songs debate often enough to know some of our community feel it is incumbent upon them to sing IRA songs at football games. Pointing out the words of Jock Stein, or the inevitable conclusion to this singing, or how things have developed in Ireland, will not change this perspective.
That’s the thing about slow train wrecks, nothing can stop them. It’s more productive to plan on how to deal with the aftermath.
Congratulations to the Bucketeers who raised over £26k for the costs of mounting an appropriate legal defence to the Dam Square five. This is a stunning amount of money raised, which demonstrates the strength of feeling among the support.
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Sandman
Perhaps he might realise that young men are suffering in life purely because of their love for Celtic. That an act of law fashioned by bigots, for bigots, is being actively implemented with the sinister enthusiasm the National Socialists of the 1930s had for crystalnacht
Are you unaware of the co-operation between the leadership of the I.R.A. and the Nazis in `38,39,40 and `41 in relation to plans for a joint effort to attack a British garrison in the six counties?
Q Who bombed England in`39 and`40?
A The I.R.A.
Inconvenient facts.Facts nevertheless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTKjI-6lRiA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
When I woke up on Tuesday night to get ready for work,we were three down. I expected the blog to be a nasty place to be,following that,so I said I would be back today.
I expected the usual circular arguments about the quality in the squad,speculate to accumulate,buy this one,get rid of that one.
I was really surprised,then,to see that the result took second place in importance to a banner by a section of our support. And I was absolutely astonished at the level of criticism they are getting for it.
However,positions are largely entrenched on this,so I have little to add to it.
Except that like most Celtic fans of my acquaintance,I was brought up with a social conscience. Demanding justice and fairness for all is IMO part of being a Celtic supporter.
Leaving that at the door in order to appease UEFA,the MSM,Salmond or anybody else isnae what having a social conscience is all about.
When we are being picked on,we fight back.
The Green Brigade made a serious point with that banner. I applaud them for it,though I wish they had kept it for Scottish games.
Hail, hail to that.
Big game this weekend,,, wonder which celtic team will turn up..the ones wanting to win or the guys who just wanna go through the motions. Time for Lenny to drop a few? Or perhaps go with the tried and tested…
Sandman
That law was germinated in the Celtic boardroom. Whether they were duped , coerced or cooperated is open to speculation. I personally think they were duped. I think its a bit harsh to label them bigots. I also reckon they will never recover from it. Too many professional careerists using Celtic to further their own agenda.
HH
Moon howling while sitting in 35 grad shade while rating Bacon and eggs while supping freshly squeezed tangerine juice is definitely not over rated. ;-)
HH
Rating=eating
Yir making me jealous..-13 here just north of toronto…snow in the great white north…..who needs a fridge?
AWE NAW
It is debatable whether Celtic had much to do with it. Certainly Paul McBride was in favour-I believe he expected an outcome which would hammer sectarianism and bigotry-but the board were not so convinced.
That they now appear to be enabling the act to be enforced is to be expected-it is the law,after all.
That they appear not to be questioning why it is being pursued so rigorously is perplexing. Police swooping en-masse to arrest a suspect in his home at 4am is procedure where the suspect is believed to be in possession of a firearm.
Not a fine singing voice,and a knowledge of the words to Roll of Honour.
IMO,the board saw the original issue of “Illicit singing” at the Rennes game-was that really only two years ago-as a means of stopping everything in its tracks. And to a certain extent,it was successful. Rarely is “Ooh,ah,up the Ra” heard nowadays.
Rightly so,btw.
However,it meant we now had “previous” and that is being used against us at every turn.
Those professional careerists had better get their thinking caps on. We are in a dangerous place. We have enough outside the camp who would do us harm. There is no room for self-inflicted wounds.
BMCUWP
I also would expect more vociferous condemnation but our silence reeks of complicity. It was part of the horse trading that was used to introduce Reagan and Doncaster and the McLeish report to Scottish football. Four years later not much has changed.
HH
AWE NAW
Their silence may well be down to simply having been outsmarted,and thus not having a clue what to do next.
That being the case,their default position should be to back the fans and deal with the fallout later.
They cocked up,and are leaving the fans to deal with the consequences. That is simply not on.
stephebhoy1
I could not even fish barefoot yesterday the ground was so hot. The locals in absolute hystetics as I jumped and danced around with every contact I made with the ground. When I put my feet in the krong to cool down a small snake swam nonchalantly by causing me to jump up ..more hilarity ensued. My first vacation in two years so dont be so jealous. BTW never got a bite all day apart from on the bridge of my nose making sun SPEC wearing very difficult ;-) ;-(
HH
Boaby 4.42
Those professional careerists had better get their thinking caps on. We are in a dangerous place. We have enough outside the camp who would do us harm. There is no room for self-inflicted wounds.
As they say in Oz…………..Bloody oath.
I fear some of the harm done to individuals could be fatal. Check the scabby neck (retro or what ?) sites. Alarming.The cornered rat syndrome.
Don`t wish to be melodramatic,but some of us have seen it all before.
Porrage C.S.C.
So the blog remains ferociously divided?
Thanks to those who appreciated my comments of last night.
To Tony Donnelly et al….. ;0)
Your passion outweighs your logic. If you want a reasonable discussion I am free most Sunday evenings (your time zone). Hope to discuss my arrogance and your passion then…
Paul67
It has a long colorful history on CQN, the old songs debate….
Not that songs have been the issue in recent years….
Nevertheless your blog has had the old songs debate going round and round for nearly a decade now…. Maybe we should redefine the debate.
As you have done with the label Chanting/Banners…
Should we not simply refer to it as the censorship debate?
Or would that be too Black and White in a Corporate Climate?
There is only one slow train wreck and it is nothing to do with the support/consumers of CFC….That is a tad myopic.
The Slow Train Wreck is how the implosion of our national sport has been reported in Scotland. How the Banks relationship with the sport and politics has been reported in Scotland. And how media manage public perception rather than inform it….But not just in Scotland..
It could be expanded to all media reporting of International banking, political corruption, banking fraud, foreign wars, war crimes, veteran suicides etc etc etc…. It is par for the course…It is not journalism or managing PR. It is managing PP (Public Perceptions). It is sophisticated, relentless propaganda….
Lazy Journalism? That is something that we are all familiar with… Intimately.
It was the origin of this Forum. But as more and more flocked to its pages to read and contribute…. The Lazy journalism not only continued… It was compounded. Not only in the sports pages but in all media, PP reigns supreme everywhere…
So what to say of that…?
I will leave it to two historically diverse characters…..
So as not to offend any soul on here…
In a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
Ronald Reagan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSYPecZI_AI
HH
BMCUWP
Yes I agree. They are good businessmen abject politicians. They are sadly of the beleif that a couple of marquee signings will quell any disenchantment and were back to WWE.
HH
Come here,, try ice fishing…you’ll never be worried by the heat burning your feet again..lol
Enjoy the holiday. Glad its scorchio
PJ
I loved this definition.
Yeah.Afore your time.Sensational nevertheless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8O0GgcenVU
pjbhoynyc
05:02 on29 November, 2013
I like that Orwell quote.
HH
macjay @05:09
Not before my time sir. It was a melancholy melody in Maryhill…. And that Nothing To Lose still feels good enough for me….. ;0)
Awe_Naw_No @ 05:10
So do I. It Resonates like Bobby McGhee.
One for the Green Brigade and PL when they eventually sit doon….
The only constant is Change….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3__aCTZFhA
MACJAY
Like I said at the top of the page,most of the posters have entirely entrenched positions on the most divisive aspects of the club at the minute.
Many of us can argue those positions,no matter how entrenched,with passion,humour and some understanding of other views. Many of us can’t.
Knowing that your post isn’t going to change anyone’s mind is probably as good a reason as any not to offer it in the first place,but heyho,it’s a blog….
Anyway,as it seems to have turned into a weather report-cue for a bitta light jazz?- how’s summer down under?
AWE NAW. 0504
Marquee signing?
One wee quip from PL,and everything in the garden was rosy.
Marquee signing,jeez…..
foxy –
You really need to learn when to use “who” and when to use “whom”.
Always use “who” never “whom” if the person is the subject of the sentence.
Examples:
I once knew a girl called Mary whom came from Derry. (Wrong)
I once knew a girl called Mary who came from Derry. (Correct)
Mary is the girl whom I knew from Derry. (Correct)
Mary is the girl who I knew from Derry. (Wrong)
Who told you? (Correct)
Whom told you? (Wrong)
Always use “whom” after a preposition.
You were told by who? (Wrong)
You were told by whom? (Correct)
Lesson over.
No charge.
OK a pinta Guinness.
Cheers
:-)
Tif Finn says: (904)
November 28, 2013 at 8:44 pm
10 1 Rate This
Part two of the Fans meeting with the requisitioners.
Still waiting to start as I post this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~
The video for this won’t c&p,but it is on TSFM as above. Mind-boggling stuff from the assembled great minds of the latest would-be saviours of the huns.
Thanks to the poster who pointed it out earlier. Sorry I can’t find the post to credit you properly.
Aw c’moan I was just trying to change the subject (matter).
:-)
BMCUWP
That was before we were out of Europe, Amsterdam and the disciplinary hearing. Six more months of mibbery, a quiet transfer window, Ledley not signing up, Bangura becoming our top scorer, more police harrasment and Sevco getting closer. Forsters departure will pay for the marquee signings
HH
Tom
I know we have a wee rule where we we do not talk much…
And fair enough, but…Have to say…
When you posted in relation to the GB.
‘Green Fascism’..and ‘Not In my Name’
That was Ironic beyond Irony….
Think about it…..
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS ………FC not PLC
05:23 on
29 November, 2013
MACJAY
Knowing that your post isn’t going to change anyone’s mind is probably as good a reason as any not to offer it in the first place,but heyho,it’s a blog….
Anyway,as it seems to have turned into a weather report-cue for a bitta light jazz?- how’s summer down under?
The facts should change people`s minds,so I live in hope.Celtic are too important an organisation for inaction in the face of a gathering storm. :-)
Winnie C.S.C.
Weather is a big reason my wife and I live in Oz.In fact,the major reason.A comfortable climate is a godsend.
As a pal of mine says:
“I`ve got a thirst I wouldn`t swap for fifty bucks.”
GCT
With purveyors of the English language like me posting on here. You have just volunteered for a full time job ;-)
Ok lads unfortunately the commander is taking me shopping. Even on holiday I cant escape from it ;-(
Bis bald
HH
AWE NAW
To take two different parts of your post……
There is more chance of Bangura being our top scorer than of the club making a marquee signing.
MACJAY
Facts? I agree wholeheartedly.
I’m always open to being educated,let the process begin!
Seriously though,entrenchment means that enlightenment is overlooked in favour of willie-measuring. Been a lot of that.
Yer pal sounds bonzer. Send him over to Kilwinning in April. I might need a drinking buddy. He can send you a postcard to remind you of what you are missing,and why yer not really missing it at all.
G’Night Globalization Y’All
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WGVgfjnLqc
Bed for me.
Coupla hours before I see if my local publican can still remember me.
Good Morning Timland.
Lot’s of in-fighting with the Celtic family these days over
all sorts of thing’s,banner’s, song’s,the PLC, transfer policy.
I despair when I see some of the utter p#sh that some fholk
post on here…….we seem to be at our best in adversity,might
just be our new found superiority does not sit well with some
of us…….maybe we’ll not come to our sense’s until we’re back
under the heel of the hun.
Away to work, have a nice day.
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS ………FC not PLC
05:52 on
29 November, 2013
Boaby.
My family are biting my ear to return to “Bonny ” fur tae meet my erstwhile mates and relos.
Should this come to pass,I will be delighted to do some hothouse brainstorming educational sessions.In a pub of your choice.
Your shout.The facts alone should be worth it.
Hearts are now on my mind and,godwilling,a prolong run for Rogic.
Hail Hail,my fellow Tim.
MACJAY
Facts,beer and I are not a good mix. Perm any two from three.
Enjoy yer trip back home,bud. I always enjoy mine.
It’s the return part that is the bummer. Yer warned….
Bed now,for shooooor.
ma tuppence worth tae
The Celtic revolution and growth period that was started under the Great Bunnit and continued under MON had stalled after Seville. Money was tight again, in my opinion that was an Apex we have never achieved since then, despite last 16 appearances and debt levels from that period mean we are not likely too either. Nowadays average attendances for average league games are currently nearer 30,000 than 60,000 despite claims to the contrary. Ironically I remember the days when the old board falsely reduced attendances, either that or the amount of fholks being “lifted over” was much higher than we could ever imagine!
If we recall back to the dark days of the huns nine in a row, the sack the board and Celts for (any loose) change, as we were called, attendances dropped to around 18,000. I reckon that the crowds wouldn’t ever get much lower than that because probably we have that amount of diehards, who will go no matter what, no matter where. I dont ever see Celtic performing as badly as we did in those days, in contrast to the huns who were spending like a man with two wallets and no tomorrow. Currently our attendances are nearer this level than the sold out levels at the turn of the century.
When I was a youngster in the 70s, (not so long ago,) the Polis would try to stop us bringing Tricolours into CP. The old club board itself used the Celtic View to say that these flags did not belong at Celtic Park too. So perhaps in the board eyes we were the bad bhoys. It is often the hardest step to be amongst the few whose opinion is different from the crowd. It is easier to go along with the popular opinion and take the easy road. We persisted, Tricolours are now accepted and not seen as Terrorist flags as was the case in those days. We lived in a world where Catholics could not sign for rangers or aspire to be all that they could. Even today we should not aspire to be PM or to marry royalty.
We often claim to be more than a club and I agree we are, but we must ask what is it that makes us more than a club, what makes us different from say Blackburn or Newcastle or Arsenal? Well I reckon it’s because Celtic represent the Generations of poor, starving and often uneducated Irish immigrants. A place for us to focus our aspirations not to be second class. The clubs rise onto the world stage has in many ways mirrored the rise of the Irish immigrant class to the highest levels in UK society. The journey is far from complete though. We have often claimed to be all inclusive, although in my opinion that meant we signed players of any faith, it did not mean we welcomed orange bands into Paradise.
Our parents and grandparents faced discrimination and met it face on, they took the blows, they took the lowest paid jobs, they took the second class status, they started schools for their kids since the native Scots would allow them to be educated in the hope that the kids would not be second class, they made sacrifices at every step for their future generations, they faced every challenge head on. We are those future generations, we are the beneficiaries of their sacrifice, we must continue to do the same for our grandkids, for if we don’t, it means that their sacrifices were made in vain.
So when the Green brigade talk of Bobby Sands and of blood stained poppies, I am no second Generation Brit, I am a grandson of an Irishman and woman whose kids are still benefitting from their sacrifice. It is not for Dermott or for Peter Lawell to tell me what Celtic is about.
Some folks are saying that the GB think they are more Celtic than Celtic. That suggests to me that fans should stand in line and agree to everything that the Celtic Board say. Well I didn’t listen to the board when we kicked them out and Fergus arrived (one of the greatest days of my Celtic supporting career incidentally) and I won’t be dictated to nowadays either. The fans are the lifeblood. They are shareholders, they are customers, they are the spiritual and beating heart of Glasgow Celtic. They are everything. Without them Dermott and Peter have nothing but worthless pieces of paper. They certainly ARE more Celtic than the Celtic board.
Our government will jail us if we use our club to voice a political opinion that they consider offensive. UEFA and our board seem to find Bobby Sands image offensive too. The SFA are still openly anti Celtic and the Celtic board still seem to know their place and when to shut up. Unlike me. So in a world of change a lot of things remain the same. but generally I reckon that I will travel the less worn path and continue to be an bampot (just like those immigrants of previous generations) and I reckon I will encounter a great many tims on that same road. Many of the them will be old and grey and they will be fholks that I have already met and by the sounds of it, many of them will be youngsters from the GB too.
macjay1 for Neil Lennon
03:53 on
29 November, 2013
Sandman
Perhaps he might realise that young men are suffering in life purely because of their love for Celtic. That an act of law fashioned by bigots, for bigots, is being actively implemented with the sinister enthusiasm the National Socialists of the 1930s had for crystalnacht
Are you unaware of the co-operation between the leadership of the I.R.A. and the Nazis in `38,39,40 and `41 in relation to plans for a joint effort to attack a British garrison in the six counties?
Q Who bombed England in`39 and`40?
A The I.R.A.
Inconvenient facts.Facts nevertheless
==
Are you aware of the British supporting and arming a regime every bit as evil as the Nazis in WW2, a regime that killed millions of people and subugated Eastern Europe -Stalinist Russia.
Are you aware that Britain armed and trained the Mujahideen in Afganistan
Are you aware the British were planning to invade the Irish free state during the early part of WW2.
Are you aware that the IRA / Irish nationalists were at war with England long before Germany ever was
Are you aware that one of the early patrons of Celtic, Michael Davvit once was a member of the (IRB) Fenian Brotherhood, in fact a member of its supreme council. The IRB an organisation that planted bombs and killed innocents in England. Davitt was also heavily involved with the procurment of arms for the Fenians and took part in raids against arms depots in England in order to secure weapons? He spent time in British jails charged with treason.
Inconvinient facts but facts nevertheless
The moral of the story being the enemy of my enemy is my friend.