Apologies to all who, like me, tired of the circular ‘songs debate’ on CQN many years ago. Back in 2011, when Celtic had a similar action from Uefa to defend as they now face, I predicted a slow train wreck:
“The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
“I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
“Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.”
A few weeks later I wrote:
“Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
“While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.”
Since then:
Uefa and the SPL have reprimanded Celtic.
Efforts have been made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which mostly fail.
Despite pleas from Neil Lennon, or earlier from Jock Stein, some insist on signing political songs. As Jock and Neil were ignored it remains an act of vanity for lesser mortals to try to convince others to desist.
Charges have been brought for expressing sentiment similar to that in Flower of Scotland.
Celtic have not, should not and cannot try to mitigate IRA chanting or banners as inconsequential. It is not inconsequential, Jock Stein knew it a long time before the SNP government. Fill your boots on debating why it has consequences below, it’s a huge intellectual topic, you’ll enjoy it, then you’ll get bored of it and move on.
If you want the opportunity to have a Debating Society on this, there is space on the comments section, knock yourself out. I’ve been through the songs debate often enough to know some of our community feel it is incumbent upon them to sing IRA songs at football games. Pointing out the words of Jock Stein, or the inevitable conclusion to this singing, or how things have developed in Ireland, will not change this perspective.
That’s the thing about slow train wrecks, nothing can stop them. It’s more productive to plan on how to deal with the aftermath.
Congratulations to the Bucketeers who raised over £26k for the costs of mounting an appropriate legal defence to the Dam Square five. This is a stunning amount of money raised, which demonstrates the strength of feeling among the support.
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CQN Annual, get it while it’s hot:
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kitalba 08.47 FFS, you’ll be telling us next that we didnay leave the lights on for the Luftwaffe, Peter Lawwell doesn’t run the SFA with an iron fist and Craig Whyte isn’t a billionaire.
Where will it end?
Celt for Life
The Annual is mailed out same day, or next day if ordered after 3pm. It’s on a 3/4 working day Royal Mail delivery service and we have no way of tracking it. Can you check with the neighbours that it hasn’t been left with them, as this has happened on a number of occasions.
If not there can you email me on cqnbooks@gmail.com so I can arrange to get another sent.
Thanks
CF
dontbrattbakkinanger
08:41 on 29 November, 2013
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha….welcome back, comment…my favourite one….!!!!!!!!
I wonder if FIFA share the ” no politics” party line that UEFA do? Would certainly be in their interests. I mean they could then take action against many of the Brazilian clubs where protests have been evident in their grounds (as well as on the streets) at the horrendous working conditions and treatment of workers on the sites of the World Cup venues. 2 killed and 1 seriously injured in midweek and countless numbers working for a pittance.
Expect widespread condemnation at grounds across Brazil this coming week, and perhaps even globally. A fair wage for the workers. ( ring a bell?).
What’s more important? If the GB displayed a banner condemning FIFA and demanding fair pay and conditions for Brazilian workers would you back them, or berate them? Or tell them ” yes I agree but please protest elsewhere as we don’t want to upset our masters?”
Hmmmmm….
Fffff UEFA.
How stupid is it to question the hypocrisy of the SFA, MSM etc….
Just because Sevco complained about a rather lame joke and then they go on to make a tasteless, insulting joke of their own.
Don’t you know the rules of the game?
The rules are quite simple:
1. Celtic and all followers are required to walk on eggshells at all time in all areas pertaining to Sevco (oops, there I go, broke the rule myself). All comments or actions which might offend the ultra-sensitive feelings of any Sevconian must be roundly punished with the greatest vigour.
2. Sevco and all followers are permitted free reign to say and do as they please. If any action of a Sevconian, or group of Sevconians does appear to be out of line, all powers must be brought to bear to ensure no reporting of the behaviour comes to light.
Very simple rules. I really don’t understand why people get so confused.
Dharma Bam:
If it wasn’t for the ‘Donegal corridor’ chances are the Bismarck would have made port, and God alone knows what that might have entailed.
Do you know that many historians credit an ex-IRA man with being pivotal in the allies winning the war? It happened in North Africa, but he was never accorded due accreditation, he wasn’t one of the establishment. And what did the establishment do to him, well like Stalker, and anybody else who dared rock their boat, they trashed him and his reputation and transferred the glory to a more British than British general.
mea culpa
09:04 on 29 November, 2013
ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON ……..!!!!!!!!
twists n turns:
Didn’t UEFA have an initiative and campaign to kick racism out of football; but it’s okay by them for Celtic Supporters to be subjected to discrimination and oppression….
Kitalba, as a layperson and off the top of my head, the only person I can think of is Monty’s double, however I don’t I’ll be right with that one.
….and Seb Blatter said ” the World Cup brings social benefits”
Some extracts.
Only a couple of weeks earlier, however, he had seemed to be having one of his little-old-us days when confronted by the mounting evidence of the appalling working conditions suffered by migrant workers building the Fifa dream in Qatar. “We are not the ones that can actually change it,” he explained self-effacingly. “This is not Fifa’s remit.” And yet, only a couple of years ago, Fifa’s general secretary, Jérôme Valcke, ruled that workers’ rights in Qatar were a concern of Fifa’s as “we have a responsibility that goes beyond the development of football”.
He declared during a keynote address at the Oxford Union last month. He went on to explain that Fifa’s job is “helping communities in need through football”. “Fifa exists … because we love the game, recognise its power and feel a strong duty to society
So which is it? Hard to say, given a similar hokey cokey a few months ago, when the Confederations Cup brought Blatter to Brazil – the lucky country chosen to host the 2014 World Cup, but whose ungrateful citizens were taking to the streets to let it be known they’d have preferred the money spent on fripperies such as public services. “I can understand people are not happy but they should not use football to make their demands heard,” Blatter decided. “If this happens again we have to question whether we made the wrong decision awarding the hosting rights.”
So, plenty to think about, plenty to shout about, oh wait….shhhhhhhh
macjay1 for Neil Lennon
07:57 on
29 November, 2013
Oglach
07:04 on
29 November, 2013
====
Not an Anti British agenda just correcting your assessment of the IRA being friends with the Nazis i drew a comparison with Churchill’s support of Stalinist Russia – as an example – 2 diametrically opposed political opponents joined against a common enemy.
But you really need to brush on your history mo Chara before you make stupid baseless statements – Frank Ryan IRA commander / Brigadista (Ever heard Christy sing Viva la Quinta Brigada) and other IRA leader were not friends of the Nazi’s – FACT they were anything but many having fought against the fascists. However they were willing to accept weapons from the Germans to enable them to continue their war against England.
Why would the Irish free state become embroiled in the war against Nazi Germany? why single out Ireland for not joining the allies? Other much larger European nations were also neutral – the Swiss , the Swedes or Spanish for instance?
Now another point I was making about Celtic, using the example of Michael Davvit, Celtic have always had an Irish nationalist element within its support although many refuse to acknowledge this and try their best to airbrush it from history, Celtic FC is an entity born from oppression, a club founded to support those forced to leave their native land, the very poorest of Irish society, those who couldn’t afford the fare on a coffin ship to the new world.
Why do I support a British team? – my answer to that is why don’t you read what Martin O’Neill said about Celtic and the Irish Diaspora he puts it far more eloquently than I ever could.
Now my question to you why do you support Celtic if you dislike the Irish so much?
Kit
Indeed. Kick racism out of football? Given recent events it’s laughable.
Dontbrattbakkinanger:
Don’t knock Spain, Portugal or Sweden either. Countries that had a lot more means than a very young, and impoverished, Ireland.
Ex-SFA security chief claims match-fixing scandal may have already have hit Scotland….
Must have been taking in the Sevco games I see.
twists n turns:
The difference between what the Green Brigade did and what UEFA did, was, wit hthe Green Brigade then restricted their statement to the stands, UEFA on the other had took it onto the field of play and bought TV time too.
To me, both groups were rallying against the same disease.
My thanks to Macjoy.
Your provocative post has led to a stream of thoughtful, imaginative and reasoned replies that demonstrate this blog is indeed somewhere where PP (public perception), pysops and lazy journalism are not accepted.
CQN can be a reassuring place at times.
Good morning everyone I beg to take your leave.
Oglach:
You might want to do a wee bit more reading up on Frank Ryan… what he did after the Civil War and who he was with when the Germans returned him to Ireland in one of those pesky U-Boat thingies.
Saw a wee bit of the requisitioners’ meeting last night. My goodness the sevconian gene pool is small. The absolute dross these guys came out with is incredible.
Malcolm Murray is dangerous for them. On the face of it forthright and confident, underneath a lush and a con man.
One wee example was his “1 million kits a year should be easy, £38, high margin” Dear oh dear. Man U, Barca and Real Madrid sell over 1m. 10th on the list is Inter with around 400k. It was pure mince. Paul Murray was cringeworthy, regularly filling gaps in his ability to talk sense with things like ‘whatever it was’. Another well spoken chap with grey matter deficiencies.
They eventually got round to it and sleekitly called for the fans to do their bidding. The boycott will be ugly.
Good Morning.
Now I wonder.
I wonder if this forum is ready for a right good old fashioned Celtic related political debate which truly challenges what many would consider to be sacred or even accepted values?
Within the annual there is a chapter about the day that Fergus got booed, with many on this blog contributing their thoughts about the way the wee man with the bunnet was treated when he raised the league flag.
After all it was Fergus who stepped in to save the club, gave us our new stadium and all of that.
But what if?
What if, in actual fact, Fergus got it right in the short term but horribly wrong in the long term?
Just a bit of fun you understand and no need for rope hangings or wrist slashings or major angst of any kind– but here goes:
===================================================================
The Motion before this house is that Mr Fergus McCann sold the soul of Celtic Football Club clean down the river by incorporating it as a PLC allowing ownership of the assets, spirit and destination of the club to be determined by the vagaries of sheer market forces with the result that over 70% of the clubs shares are now controlled by a select few thus effectively disenfranchising the fanbase of the club despite what Mr McCann stated at the time.
Such a course of action was designed solely to ensure that Mr McCann achieved his long stated aim of achieving a profit after a 5 year stewardship and was an act akin to the incorporation of the original Celtic Football Club into a limited company controlled by the few and ultimately by the White, Kelly and Grant families.
Such a course of action was wholly unnecessary for the successful stewardship of the club, was designed purelyfor self profit and was completely and utterly against the spirit, wishes and ideals of Brother Walfrid whose statue sits ( in disgust ) outside Celtic Park.
Discuss!
Banners and GB Debates?
A piece of piss in comparison
kitalba
09:24 on
29 November, 2013
Oglach:
You might want to do a wee bit more reading up on Frank Ryan… what he did after the Civil War and who he was with when the Germans returned him to Ireland in one of those pesky U-Boat thingies.
==
I alreadymentioned that the IRA accepted aid from the Germans during WW2 it didn’t make them Nazis, Anywho Ryan did much the same as Casement in 1916- Banna strand U-Boat -German aid.Both Pearce and Connolly willingly accepted German weapons; U-Boats and Irish nationalism seems to be a wee trend.
I wouldn’t rush to liken Franco’s Spain to Ireland. Anyway, I wonder how the Italians get on with UEFA. Their splits are much more purely political, Communism v Fascism.
I thought there was supposed to be some sort of fans liaison officer after the last GB vs Celtic Board crisis.
What exactly is the remit of this officer?
Surely there should be some sort of consultation regarding banners etc… given the history of problems in that area.
I think the board over-reacted to the GB banner issue. Its like their dancing to the SMSM tune. Its a bunch of young-ish ultra fans being their age. Its not really a big deal.
The club get fined a few sponderos because of the ultras ,same as a lot of other clubs round europe will.
Give the GB a rap on the knuckles and move on. The Celtic reputation is as it always was. Most respect the club with a proud history and special fans. The huns and their ilk will continue with their mindless hatred. Nothing really changes.
Tamrabam
Good summing up and excellent point about where lines are drawn.
“As oil is to the oil industry so stupidity is to football” and it does not confine itself to the legislators.
Time the game got smarter and asked itself what harm is done by political banners or indeed any banners?
Did Tuesday night’s banner make one iota of a difference to the cause it is meant to justify fighting?
Indeed since it could be viewed as a provocative act , going against an agreement to observe a football law, did it not justify the need for the stupid law that it was protesting against?
Our hearts are for pumping oxygen rich blood to our brains. The brains should do the thinking and the heart the pumping. Not the reverse.
If football used its brains it would recognise the pervasiveness of politics, which is but a physical expression of thought and so impossible to contain.
The game should drop the term political and ask that banners do not portray, promote or explicitly speak of violence and leave it at that.
If someone wants to jump up and down about a banner reflecting history, even if that history almost inevitably has violence in its making, that is their problem. It applies to whether the banner shows an H for H Block or King Billy on his high horse ( but no blood being waded through)
So no block banning just one criteria -no explicit violence.
Then the banner men can hold their banners high whilst the rest of us ignore them (apart from maybe appreciating their aesthetic value) and watch the bloody football, which is why most turn up, not for the singing and dancing.
Banners have only become an issue because football has made their appearance an issue, particularly political banners. They only get attention because the rules focus attention on them.
Remove the rules and they become the physical equivalent of one more blog entry. Like this one that many will just scroll past..
The IRA never got a fraction of the German aid that the UVF got. Like the British did, the Irish Government did, the Germans toyed with the IRA, as it was, during the second world war.
BRTH
I stood up at the EGM at share issue number 3 (for Lennoxtown) and lamented the course we were on. Fans were squeezed out and DD allowed to underwrite and hoover up shares we couldn’t afford in the rights issue. We passed a motion to bypass stock exchange regulations that would have meant a formal offer being required by him. Just 4 people now hold more than 50% of Celtic shares now. We’d been milked dry and he increased his hold. Peter Lawwell told me the need for Lennoxtown was now and this served the need. Incredibly short sighted.
Fergus gave us a fan ownership model. But the ideal was not protected, shares were not locked in trust, folk are hostage to fortune and when your family needs fed you don’t buy shares and you sell those you have to put food on the table. Fergus didn’t break the model, others did after he left, and I include Peter Lawwell in that. But the safeguards were not there to prevent it and market forces were embraced for the price of a training ground.
Fergus did exactly what he said he would do and for that we should be eternally grateful. He was honest and transparent and took on the might of the SFA who would have seen us done for. In the long term it was not perfect. On balance however he is in the pantheon of Celtic greats.
Kitalba,
from your post at 9.04 – who are you referring to then?
I’m curious now.
U-Boats and Irish nationalism seems to be a wee trend.
Woody Woodmansey’s -FENIAN ARMY!
brt
The opportunity was there, and still is, for the shares to trade and ownership to change- perhaps we raise a cqn fund to buy out DD – but of course the current board are fans -or so they keep telling us.
And of course if the broader fanbase did own the club think of the huge transfer budget.
I blame fergus for building a 60,000 stadium if he had made it 40,000 then there wouldn’t be all those empty seats every week.
Mea Culpa – “I thought there was supposed to be some sort of fans liaison officer after the last GB vs Celtic Board crisis.
What exactly is the remit of this officer?”
Basically, to get shafted by all concerned! I wouldn’t have JP Taylor’s job for any money.
Either the GB or the club would hang him out to dry at some point. I don’t know all the facts, so can’t state categorically that the GB did that to him on Tuesday.
T4
Morning all. Wild, wet and very windy down here.
DBBIA,
Good to see your humour is surviving the nonsense.
Tttt
Completely off topic but I’m asking you as I think you are a friend of the poster Greenlion. Ive not noticed him around for a long time. Is he ok do you know?
Auldheid 9:45
This laissez faire attitude of yours will have to stop! Too much common sense and we will lack the entertainment provided by the entrenched and the bigots.
Happy hoopy Friday bhoys…
HH
My final contribution to this mess are the words of Ewan Macoll:
In the morning we built the city In the afternoon walked through its streets Evening saw us leaving We wandered through our days as if they would never end All of us imagined we had endless time to spend We hardly saw the crossroads and small attention gave To the landmarks on the journey from the cradle to the grave Cradle to the grave, cradle to the grave Did you learn to dream in the morning? Abandon dreams in the afternoon? Wait without a hope in the evening? Did you stand there in the traces and let them feed you lies? Did you trail along behind them wearing blinkers on your eyes? Did you kiss the foot that kicked you? Did you thank them for their scorn? Did you ask for their forgiveness for the act of being born? Act of being born, act of being born Did you alter the face of the city? Make any change in the world you found? Or did you observe all the warning? Did you read the trespass notice? Did you keep off the grass? Did you shuffle off the pavement just to let your betters pass? Did you learn to keep your mouth shut? Were you seen and never heard? Did you learn to be obedient and jump to at a word? Jump to at a word, jump to at a word And did you ever demand any answer? The who and the what and the reason why And did you ever question the setup? And did you stand aside and let them choose while you took second best? Did you let them skin the cream off and then give to you the rest? Did you settle for the shoddy? And did you think it right To let them rob you right and left and never make a fight? And never make a fight, never make a fight What did you learn in the morning? How much did you know in the afternoon? Were you content in the evening? And did they teach you how to question when you were at the school? Did the factory help you grow? Were you the maker or the tool? Did the place where you were living enrich your life and then? Did you mix among the standing of all your fellow men? All your fellow men, all your fellow men, all your fellow men
Did you?
Robert
As ever, very apt, and hopefully, thought provoking.
One I somehow missed last night- blathering on the phone to ACGR at the time-and deserves a second look. Previously buried at the bottom of a page…
~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
sandman
03:06 on 29 November, 2013
Read back thru everything. Took me time, finally arrived at my own conclusions for what they’re worth. Should just cut to the quick, it being so late here and that, and sleep is needed before work:
My major point – There is such great irony abounding, in that the very mindset the GB banners questioned is being employed to persectute them.
Who felt it necessary to complain? Who felt it necessary to begin the hysterical responses?
Was it YOU, Hun lurker, media bitch?
None of the Celtic support thought it merited more than a few vague asides when you read back through match updates on various blogs. A few sardonic remarks and a number of wtf?s, that was about the sum of it.
Whether you agree with the sentiments – and most of us would – or whether the time and place was pertinent – and that brings greater division of opinion – it must be noted that the REAL cause of consternation among so many was the banner depicting Bobby Sands.
I doubt the GB could have created more of a hair-pulling, self-flagellating frenzy had they popped up a banner of Mohammed lighting a bomb.
That’s the real shtick going down – the fact that a publically-displayed image of an IRA hunger striker/ elected MP induces such anxiety in Scottish society 2013; what venemous prejudices bubble under the surface of this insular wee nation?
Don’t be fooled by the wicked Hun fascists in the SMSM who will flog this to death until they divide the Celtic support, demonise further the GB and ramp up the polis bully-boys into a frenzy.
That’s my only real complaint about it – the point was made, yes, and the response predictable and very telling. But those behind it in the GB must have known the possible cost. Exposing a nation’s hypocritical black heart and bigoted soul will casue many more young lads the pain of being on the receiving end of Salmond’s brand of jusitce.
I think their judgement was off.
I think they did not take into account the feeling of the greater support.
I think they let Celtic down by bringing politics to the forefront of a Celtic Park Champoins League night.
But…
Should Peter Lawwell ban them? What, at the behest of some sleekit little nazis in the Scottish press? Don’t be ridiculous.
What Peter Lawwell might be advised to do is appease everyone – surely his major CEO skill given the position he finds himself in.
Perhaps he might realise that young men are suffering in life purely because of their love for Celtic. That an act of law fashioned by bigots, for bigots, is being actively implemented with the sinister enthusiasm the National Socialists of the 1930s had for crystalnacht.
Perhaps he might realise that Tuesday’s furore might never have happened if those young men felt in any way that Celtic PLC, to which they give such a large percentage of their life’s earnings, had their backs in some way when the billy-boy rozzers are smashing down their doors at 4am.
As it is, the GB carried the plea, the message. They alienated many in the execution of it.
But it is a Celtic bone of contention. Something for the GB, the club, and the rest of the support to debate.
It is NOT a bone of contention for the SMSM, the Huns, or any other half-witted political point-scoring rent-a-gub. They only care about one thing, one image which, abstractly, still represents terror in their collective psyche.
The GB should apologise. To the rest of us, mainly for catching us unawares, mainly for misjudging the moment.
I don’t think they need apologise to Celtic plc. The context of the banner caused no offence. UEFA, corrupt to the core, will fine regardless – e.g the ‘F UEFA’ subtlety of Udinese; political? Hah.
Where the GB go from now? Hopefully from strength to strength. Hopefully as raucously as their youthful verve dictates. Hopefully with more nous and wiser strategy.
The media and polis will try to smash them, look for Celtic plc to facilitate that as much as possilbe. Celtic plc must be very careful not to jump on any bandwagon or step into line with the torch-carrying march.
We’ve never been as gullible as the Huns. Never swallowd greedily the bull shovelled by the SMSM. Never let the club fail in shame and misery.
And now the definitions must be clear. Two separate agendas here; one ignited by a simple line drawing of a martyr and another more intrinsic to the soul of Celtic.
I’d say let the ignorant bray their angst over a damn picture, and let us Celtic supporters debate whether there is a line drawn between club and fanbase and how distant must the relationship necessarily be.
Dharma Bam:
Major-General Eric Dorman-Smith, who was the brains behind Major-General Richard O’Connor. You can read about them on wiki, or other sites, if you want a wee bit of the basic background, but you should read their autobiographies if you want the whole story.
twists n turns
10:05 on
I can confirm Greenlion is alive and well,seen him in the club on Tuesday before the game was taking great pride in telling me cqn coupon was up !