Apologies to all who, like me, tired of the circular ‘songs debate’ on CQN many years ago. Back in 2011, when Celtic had a similar action from Uefa to defend as they now face, I predicted a slow train wreck:
“The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
“I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
“Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.”
A few weeks later I wrote:
“Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
“While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.”
Since then:
Uefa and the SPL have reprimanded Celtic.
Efforts have been made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which mostly fail.
Despite pleas from Neil Lennon, or earlier from Jock Stein, some insist on signing political songs. As Jock and Neil were ignored it remains an act of vanity for lesser mortals to try to convince others to desist.
Charges have been brought for expressing sentiment similar to that in Flower of Scotland.
Celtic have not, should not and cannot try to mitigate IRA chanting or banners as inconsequential. It is not inconsequential, Jock Stein knew it a long time before the SNP government. Fill your boots on debating why it has consequences below, it’s a huge intellectual topic, you’ll enjoy it, then you’ll get bored of it and move on.
If you want the opportunity to have a Debating Society on this, there is space on the comments section, knock yourself out. I’ve been through the songs debate often enough to know some of our community feel it is incumbent upon them to sing IRA songs at football games. Pointing out the words of Jock Stein, or the inevitable conclusion to this singing, or how things have developed in Ireland, will not change this perspective.
That’s the thing about slow train wrecks, nothing can stop them. It’s more productive to plan on how to deal with the aftermath.
Congratulations to the Bucketeers who raised over £26k for the costs of mounting an appropriate legal defence to the Dam Square five. This is a stunning amount of money raised, which demonstrates the strength of feeling among the support.
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CQN Annual, get it while it’s hot:
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See some people are never happy (and not just Mrs jc2 or a lot on CQN)
Poor old Charles Green only last week was being slagged for being poor value and filling his pockets.
Last night he was was getting lambasted for working for Rangers board for free.
Some folk Never happy .
Auldheid
At the risk of sounding patronising or disrespectful (neither of which apply to what I’m about to say) …
I’m beginning to think I should (very belatedly, mark you) start keeping a wee file of ‘Auldheids Words of Wisdom’.
The latest offering (in your post of 09:45) being the magical: ‘Our hearts are for pumping oxygen rich blood to our brains. The brains should do the thinking and the heart the pumping. Not the reverse.’
Fantastic!
FF
BRTH @ 9:35
Are you on the sauce, bud?
It’s a Friday Morning, for crying out loud … ;-)
FF
kitalba,
In an earlier post you referred to an ex IRA man and WW2 in North Africa.
Can you give more info on this as I would be interested in finding out more.
Thanks
medtim
Whether it was Fergus who stole the soul of Celtic or Dermot Desmond matters not a jot!
It is the fact that if you even dare to voice the opinion that Celtic has had her soul removed, you are labelled entryist, studenty left wing children by PLC lickspittles with keyboards.
Pheersy
Tyvm for that. Glad he’s ok, just struck me he hadn’t been posting. Pass on my regards when you next see him.
BlantyreKev
09:51 on
29 November, 2013
You remind me of an issue that I hope is being consideration somewhere.
What happens when DD shuffles off his mortal coil?
If I were him I would want to leave a legacy viewed in much the same way as Fergus is viewed by many. Of course DD may care not a jot but perhaps it is a resolution for the next AGM?
Off the top of my head
“Shareholders would like to know if any thought has been given to what happens when the largest holder of shares is no longer with us and what the club’s thinking is”
BMCUW
10:18
Many fine posts by dozens of bloggers the last 48 hours, and thats another one.
Slabhoy – Duntocher is Green and White
That downside did occur to me, but omelette n eggs n that. :)
Kitalba,
The sfa would love to get involved, re the Bobby Sands banner but after the disgraceful events at the forces day at ipox! even they know when to stay tightlipped..surely.
Ewen Mccoll.
The mysterious deserter from the fight against fascism.
Apparently the H the GB were holding aloft was meant to be a I for we are intelligent but they turned it the wrong way ho hum
Thanks, Kitalba
medtim:
If you look at my post at 10:18….
Dharma Bam:
If you do get the notion to read about him, keep an open mind… Churchill hated him.
monteblanco
10:24 on
29 November, 2013
Whether it was Fergus who stole the soul of Celtic or Dermot Desmond matters not a jot!
It is the fact that if you even dare to voice the opinion that Celtic has had her soul removed, you are labelled entryist, studenty left wing children by PLC lickspittles with keyboards.
======================================
Morning D
With respect the soul cannot be removed, it simply has many forms, reflected in the thinking of each entity that houses a part of that whole soul.
The problem comes when each thinks they ARE the soul, as opposed to being a part of the whole.
We think we are apart from the whole when all the evidence tells us we ARE the whole.
Carry on :)
The obvious assessment of this current drama is that PIRA is off the menu as far as Celtic is concerned. It will always bring trouble to the club and clearly causes division amongst the fans.
Only 1 group are rubbing their hands with glee, the Sevconians.
I don’t think any wars have been won by soldiers shooting themselves in the foot.
BRTH
I would conceded that – on the face of it, at least – what Fergus did was akin to incorporating Celtic along the lines that eventually led to the nadir of 1994.
Was such a course of action ‘wholly unnecessary’ (remembering that the proverbial wolves were at the door)?
And were there any viable alternatives at that time and in the time available?
Also: whilst it is undeniable that Fergus made a handsome profit, he left the club in rude health, strong enough to withstand the competition of a rival being pumped full of financial dope …
FF
Just in to say….
Totally agree that when Fergus McCann and his ‘rebels’ stood on the front steps of CP
as Brian Dempsey declared – “The game is over – the ‘rebels’ have won” – from that moment on and the, vastly over-subscribed share issue which built the stadium ie: the fans built the stadium as FM paid off the debt – FM, slowly but surely got rid of his ‘rebels’ off the ‘bored’ and Celtic FC became, Celtic PLC. This was the beginning of a ‘plastic’ version of the Cellic that I had been brought up with. Fast-forwarding on to the day were FM was booed – correctly imo – what you have to remember is that, Celtic had just won their 1st League title in 9 years and, the management team wanted to move Celtic forward – as you do – and FM and his puppet CEO, Jock Brown were not on the same page as Wim, Murdo and the fans who were well aware of the challenge that would be coming Celtic’s way in the next season in the shape of Dick Advocates huns and the wreckless spending spree that they would be going on. Jansen, I’m led to believe…had a more realistic plan of attack for what would be Celtic’s 1st ‘ever’ venture into the new format of the European Cup – The Champions League.
Jansen and Macleod were said to be very impressed by the new version of John Collins who, had newly acquired CL SF experience with Monaco and, were wanting to bring him back as he was up for it and, Wim was also keen on developing another former Celt, PVH.
FM and JB had other ideas.
Jansen was forced to quit and Macleod followed shortly after.
Then begun a, 4 month hunt for a new manager – Dr Jozef Venglos.
What had happened, and this seems to have been written ‘off oot’ of this particular period of Celtic’s history….was that, in the season were we had to stop the huns winning 10 iar was that, BEFORE that season had finished…Celtic or, FM rather, insisted that next seasons SB’s had to be paid for before the ‘stop the 10 season’ had finished ?!?!?
Aye, FM was a cutie alright.
Ah mean, can ye imagine what the crowds would have been like the following season had the huns won the 10 ?
Anyway – Wims Tims won and ensured we widny hiv tae liv that wan doon.
I say that FM was, correctly booed and yes…I was one of those who booed – I seem to be the only one brave enough to put his hand up to that one ?
Maybe it was joost me that booed ?
Who knows ?
Who cares ?
Anyway – moving on to todays guardians of ‘plastic’ Celtic PLC…oh, how they must be loving the GB for creating yet another – Rory Bremner type of smokescreen for them to hide behind – taking all the ‘dullards’ eyes off the p#sh that has been served up on the pitch this season ?
What worries me is….what if it comes about that, ‘plastic’ PLC have to ban the GB when, imo, the 12th man is far more impressive than the 11 men on the pitch ?
Shambles dizny begin to describe it.
One wee banana-skin at swinecastle away from 20k crowds for the rest of the season. imo
Say ‘NO’ to cliques and bullies – CSC
Take care Tims – Off oot.
GB and songs debate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZo_OxN_j7c
sipsini:
This is never going to end unless the highest courts rule. Until them there is going to be a lot of agitation from expected quarters and fractions are a certainty; frustrations will fray tolerances, and Celtic folk will argue their friends into enemies. It is already happening.
I don’t like the SFA, and as for UEFA… Jean-Marc Bosman.
I assume SPFL will be charging Aberdeen over their fans racist chanting last Saturday?
kitalba,
thanks for that
will check it out
medtim
Auldbuddha
Which Whole are you talking out of?
;)
Can we all just share a virtual pint of porters. I am buying :)
ASonofDan- was there racist chanting?
I heard them singing about J.Savile.
Obviously it’s been a while since we had such a big away support for a domestic game.
medtim/Dharma Bam:
This will get you started…
In the British Army of the Second World War we can rarely find another officer who could divide the historians, military experts and fellow officers like Major-General Eric
nicknamed “Chink” Dorman-Smith (later O’Gowan).
dontbrattbakkinanger
10:48 on 29 November, 2013
ASonofDan- was there racist chanting?
I heard them singing about J.Savile.
Obviously it’s been a while since we had such a big away support for a domestic game.
>>>>>>>>>
I can confirm what sonofdan heard the sheep singing, I was surprised and disgusted as was my daughter.
I sit in lower 109 and it was loud and clear.
cheers sydney, my round next Weiss bier all round, my shout. easy isn’t it mate. Night all. Have a good one.
ASonOfDan
10:40 on
29 November, 2013
Depends if anybody has made a complaint. I sit diagonally opposite so couldn’t really hear what they were chanting.
sevco AGM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZo_OxN_j7c
MEA CULPA. 1035
Nor do I recall very many wars being won by soldiers doing what their enemy told them to do.
A supporter from the Jungle threw a bottle onto the park down at the corner at the Celtic End. It landed on the park and certainly didn’t hit anyone. The opposition who had a 3-1 lead from the first leg were getting trounced by a rampant Celtic team. These guys knew they were going out of Europe. So one of their players goes down as if he’s been shot. UEFA investigate, order the tie – which Celtic won 3-0 to be replayed and we go out of Europe. They go on to the Final and lose to Everton – who I have always been convinced that Celtic team would have beaten. One bottle. One idiot. Huge consequences for Celtic. I have often wondered what the guy who threw the bottle thought about the consequences of his action. Yes our opponents were cheats, but he gave them a way back into Europe when they were out.
Yesterday Willie McStay told me he reckoned Celtic would have won that competition. He was a Celtic player at the time.
The next season we went out of Europe behind closed doors – Celtic Park with no fans.
Bottles, banners whatever. If they harm Celtic they have no place at Celtic Park.
On CQN Annual – have you ordered your yet? All orders have been posted out and if not there yet expect it to arrive shortly. Anyone who hasn’t yet ordered can do so using the link below Paul’s post.
CQTEN is coming along nicely – if you want to reserve your tickets for this event to celebrate 10 years of CQN please email celticquicknews@gmail.com
It takes place at Kerrydale Suite on Friday 14th March – all wlecome.
kitalba,
Thanks again.
I had a look on wiki.Sounds like a fascinating story.
I will try to get the biography by Lavinia Graecen about him.
Every day a school day
Cheers
medtim
Celtic AGM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZo_OxN_j7c
BMCW – Enemy? Who do you mean?
I would like to assemble a banner to bring along to the ole CQTen.
Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
Macjay,
The British have been Ireland’s enemy & abuser for 800 years.
Using a common enemy, the Germans in your example, to help in an attack on your tormentor is perfectly valid in any war. If you have common purpose with the Devil himself, then you use HIM to strike at your enemy.
Like the old adage says,..’ My enemy’s enemy is my friend.’
Ireland owed Britain NOTHING.